bayoubengal1954 Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 This is purported to be a '47-'48 J-50 with quite a story. Here is the link but I will post the pictures and cut and paste the text of the ad for convenience:https://reverb.com/item/2278613-vintage-gibson-j-50-j-45-1947-48-natural#description-tab Here is the text of the ad (complete with typos): "This is a true golden era Gibson that has bee played hard and and sounds absolutely fantastic! Don't let the looks fool you this guitar is solid as a rock and the sound I's humongous! The guitar has been rebuilt from the inside out. Here's the story. The guitar was recently a traveling musicians main guitar. It had already been refinished and had its fair share of cracks on the top and back. About two years ago TSA did him the favor of checking his flight case and setting the guitar down on the endpin cracking the guitar through the end block and up both sides. This gave him a good reason to take the back off and completely rebuild the guitar. Each brace was removed cleaned up from all the glue from the multiple poor repairs and set back in its original place clean and with fresh hide glue. The side cracks and end block were repaired and cleated, the existing cracks were cleated appropriately, and the back was put back on. There was one back brace that could not be removed and reset due to some unknown glue that wouldn't budge. All work was done by an expert luthier with 10 years experience who got his start working for Gibson in their custom, historic, and art division. Plays great sounds amazing solid and ready to go for years!" The asking price is $2700 with the option to make an offer. I've sent the seller a few questions. Obviously it is not a collectible item (the horrible looking refinish, all the work to repair the damage, etc.) but I want a great sounding player, so the looks are not paramount to me. Not sure what is going on with all the brown paint (stain?) on the headstock, but the gold block logo is visible. Also I have never seen ebony tuner buttons on a 40's J-50 so not sure about the tuners. They do look old, but I'm guessing not original? It is my understanding that many of the '47 and '48 models do not have FONs, so one has to use other means (logo, bridges, pickguards, etc.) to date them. Is that true? It does have the tear drop guard and not the bat wing, FWIW. I was thinking it would be helpful to correspond with the "expert luthier with 10 years experience who got his start working for Gibson in their custom, historic, and art division" who supposedly did the work. Did he reset the neck when he did all of the other repairs and other questions come to mind. The seller is in St. Louis and by happenstance I will be in St. Louis in mid June, so I was thinking about trying to set up an appointment to see and play the guitar if it has not sold. It has only been posted on reverb for a week. Also looks like the end pin was reamed out for a pick up at one time, which is fine with me. For me, where the rubber meets the road will be the tone. The pictures are below. Interested in hearing from the brain trust. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 The guitar is really rough, and at $2700, is probably over-priced. With the block logo and non-belly bridge, it's probably from 1947. I don't believe the pickguard is original. It's worth looking at if it plays well and sound great. Otherwise, not. For the same money, you can buy a recent J-45 TV or similar, and it may well be a better guitar in almost every way. For what it's worth, I don't think the tuners are original. I'm not familiar with tuners of that type with the lettering these have, but I can't read what it says on them. It looks to me like some brown/orange stain was mixed in with whatever finish was applied to the guitar. If it came around in my area and sounded really good, I might pay up to $1000 for it just as a pure player. It has no collector value at this point, although who knows what the future holds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 The guitar is really rough, and at $2700, is probably over-priced. With the block logo and non-belly bridge, it's probably from 1947. I don't believe the pickguard is original. It's worth looking at if it plays well and sound great. Otherwise, not. For the same money, you can buy a recent J-45 TV or similar, and it may well be a better guitar in almost every way. Thanks for chiming in! Yeah, there is no way I would pay $2700 but I would be intrigued if it plays well, sounds great and doesn't need anything more than a set up. A lot of "ifs". :) If it is still available when I'm in St. Louis I'll try to set up an appointment. There is a seven day return policy FWIW. A guitar that looks that bad better sound good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 The seller just wrote me and said the FON is 3526. Is that a "47-'48? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 He sent two pictures showing the action. A little high for me, but if there is enough saddle a good set up could help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 The seller just wrote me and said the FON is 3526. Is that a "47-'48? In combination with that bridge, it's probably 1948. I have a J-45 with FON 3644, but it has the belly-up bridge, which came in sometime in'48. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 He sent two pictures showing the action. A little high for me, but if there is enough saddle a good set up could help with that. That action is a bit high. Looks like 7/64 on both E strings. "Normal" Gibson acoustic action is 4/64 treble, 6/64 bass. Photos give no indication of how much saddle is left, but you would need to shave about 3/32 off in the treble side, 1/32 bass side to reach those numbers, since you have to take twice as much off at the saddle as you want to lower the action, if the string height at the nut stays the same. Ask for a close-up picture of the bridge and saddle from a couple of angles, so we can see how much saddle there is, and whether or not the bridge has been shaved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 That guitar IS indeed "rough", specifically, the fact that it looks like this AFTER being "completely repaired"...well...rough. I bet the "orange" tinting is kinda an imitation vintage tint, and a good way to make it look softer given the condition and the lack fixing cosmetics. Which brings another point, not that it might matter: it IS possible to do cosmetic repairs, it could have been dressed up and made to look better. So it isn't like it has been fixed all the way like new. Also, given all the work done that was listed, why not make the action better? Surprised there isn't a neck set listed as one of the repairs. Not trying to say anything bad about this guitar or the sellers or the luthier who did the work...just that 2700 is a high price for what it is and isn't, and there are still a lot of valid questions regarding the actual state of this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalex Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Along with everything else that action looks suspiciously high. Looks like the guitar needs a neck set to me. Might be a fun guitar project but not worth anywhere near $2700 I would pass on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Rule #1, when traveling with or shipping a guitar, always cushion the endpin area with soft foam. That's a guitar you'd have to cradle and play to know how much cash to lay down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 Thanks everyone. You all have confirmed some of my thoughts. I can't help but think it will need a neck reset which will cost another $500. As stein pointed out, if all of this repair work was done, why is the action so high? The seller can ask whatever he wants of course, but the asking price seems very optimistic at best. Maybe the seller looks at the reverb value estimate for a 1948 J-50 pegged at $4800 to $6200 and thinks he has lowered it accordingly. I am interested enough to actually hold it and play it. Since I will be in St. Louis anyway, I have gotten the seller's phone # and he has agreed to give me an appointment with it if it is still available sometime between June 10th and June 12th. If he sells it before then anywhere close to $2700, good for him! If the tone just blows me away (maybe the 60 year old wood will just make one forget the ugly top) and it doesn't need a neck reset, I could see thinking it over and making an offer that would probably be so much lower than his asking price that he would dismiss it out of hand. If it needs a neck reset, the offer will really disappoint him! As per Nick's suggestion, I'll see if the seller will send me a side angle picture of the saddle. It could be fun to at least play it! I'll keep you posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 The seller sent me this photo of the saddle: Doesn't seem like a lot to work with it, or am I not looking at it right? Has anyone ever heard of a fellow named Pete Bunch ever working for Gibson? That is the guy who did the work. The seller seems like a guy who does respond quickly to questions. I gotta give him that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Well...for a fine example of a 40's era J45 or 50, which as far as I'm concerned means it plays comfortably and sounds astoundingly good, paying for a neck reset wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but only if I had fun money. There's very little saddle to work with in that pic, and that check in the bridge looks ominous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 The guitar needs a neck re-set, and it has a cracked bridge, which probably needs removal, re-gluing and re-installation, or replacement. It looks like it needs some expensive work, and it's a cosmetic disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I'd have to see it up close before giving any actual opinion. The bridge is a replacement, probably the black tuner buttons were added when the originals gave out and are black to match the bridge, the headstock has been stripped and the logo left intact, the refin is awful. Having said that, a good luthier can do magic with structural issues. A poor one can ruin a potentially restorable guitar, and an amateur can do even worse. Some guitars actually benefit in sound, tone, and volume from having their components put back to essentially original specs. Others don't. Just about guaranteed that some folks will develop a rash from looking at the appearance of that guitar, others won't. When you see it in person, you can pretty well tell whether the neck has been reset or not. Spotting a poor reset could be more difficult. I suggest you see and play it, without question. It very well could be a diamond in the rough and just as easily be a lump of organic waste. At best, the call is rather subjective, but of a call only you can make. Would I buy it? If it's mostly good, maybe. What would I pay? Damn sure not what he's asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 PS: Regarding cosmetics, that spruce would be blond in it's original state, which can be easily re-achieved by sanding it down and lacquering. That's not an expensive 'improvement' considering that the finish and collector value has already been sufficiently defiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 Yeah, I'm with all of you on this. It needs a reset. I've got a great guy here in New Orleans who has done two resets for me in the past (on a '74 D-28 and a '96 Taylor LKSM 12 String) so I know it will be done right. I will make an appointment in St. Louis on June 10th to play it if it hasn't been sold. If the tone is magical I would make an offer taking into account what needs to be done (neck reset, bridge replacement). The beat goes on! This has been fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 It could be right at home with BK777's collection of err...'slide guitars' .... But if you stump up another $2700, you could have this puppy from Vintage Licks Guitars: http://vintagelicksguitars.com/1950-gibson-j50/ BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 The bridge is a replacement, . Why do you think that? It looks original to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 It could be right at home with BK777's collection of err...'slide guitars' .... But if you stump up another $2700, you could have this puppy from Vintage Licks Guitars: http://vintagelicksguitars.com/1950-gibson-j50/ Just had a look - that's nice! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 It could be right at home with BK777's collection of err...'slide guitars' .... But if you stump up another $2700, you could have this puppy from Vintage Licks Guitars: http://vintagelicksguitars.com/1950-gibson-j50/ BluesKing777. Yeah, that's just it. I don't want to pay $5000 for a a beautiful swan. I'm fine with fixing up a 40's ugly duckling with about $2500 in it (after all that needs to be done) that sounds as good as the swan. This 45 is beat up but sounds nice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imQDVqx5pLU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 The seller sent me this photo of the saddle: Doesn't seem like a lot to work with it, or am I not looking at it right? Has anyone ever heard of a fellow named Pete Bunch ever working for Gibson? That is the guy who did the work. The seller seems like a guy who does respond quickly to questions. I gotta give him that. That there, is a guitar that really wants a neck re-set. What is lacking in the pic also, is a shot of the bridge to show if it has been shaved down...lowered, which sometimes will be done to put off a neck re-set also. But I am guessing this has been, because it is uneven, and it has a crack. Shaved bridges tend to crack more. This is neck re-set city there. This thing is getting to be a long, long way from 2700 bucks the more we learn. LONG way. I bet he would have trouble getting 1k. I don't think he could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 That there, is a guitar that really wants a neck re-set. What is lacking in the pic also, is a shot of the bridge to show if it has been shaved down...lowered, which sometimes will be done to put off a neck re-set also. But I am guessing this has been, because it is uneven, and it has a crack. Shaved bridges tend to crack more. This is neck re-set city there. This thing is getting to be a long, long way from 2700 bucks the more we learn. LONG way. I bet he would have trouble getting 1k. I don't think he could. I think you're right. If the tone sounded amazing as is, I would be willing to pay 1K (but no more) and do the neck reset and either bridge repair or replacement. I wouldn't worry about the ugly duckling top if my luthier says it is structurally sound. Neck resets don't scare me because I've got a great luthier who I know will do a good job (he's done two for me already). But I'm not going to pay a premium and then pay for a reset and bridge work. My offer would take all of that into account. I have a feeling if I get to play it that the tone won't wow me, so I won't have a tough decision to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 If it sounds anything like this one for price x2, well: http://www.dreamguitars.com/detail/5098-gibson_j50_605/ I love the sound of this 56: http://www.dreamguitars.com/detail/4931-gibson_j50_v615135/ BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 If it sounds anything like this one for price x2, well: http://www.dreamguitars.com/detail/5098-gibson_j50_605/ I love the sound of this 56: http://www.dreamguitars.com/detail/4931-gibson_j50_v615135/ BluesKing777. Those sound great! I just don't want to pay $4700 to $6400. So I'm more on the lookout for a beat up one with a tone that is in the neighborhood of those two and I invest around $2500 total. I'm not a collector looking to flip. I'm a working musician looking for a great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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