Wraparound tailpieces and intonation.

[tom.basko]

Bit of a noob question but i gotta ask it because i dont know.

I currently cant lower the tailpiece to the body of my les paul because the strings will come into contact with the bridge.

I've found that many people solve this problem by top wrapping the tailpiece, what i want to know is if i do this to my guitar, will it mess up the intonation if i do so?

I included a photo just in case i have not explained this properly.

 

Thanks in advance, Tom

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

If you don't move the bridge you may not need to intonate anything.

The only thing you will mess up for sure is the plating on the tailpiece.

[pippy]

I know it's tantamount to Insanity to say so but in 40 years of playing T-o-M'd guitars I have never EVER had a problem because my E strings touch the rear of the bridge.

 

Not once.

 

Ever.

 

P.

[Vinlander]

Some guitars can have set neck angle on the higher side which require to raise the bridge a bit higher than usual, top wrapping become handy in these situations.

Strings touching the back of the bridge is not the biggest concern that could happen with a TP set too low.

Screwing down TP without top wrapping can create higher downward pressure on the bridge and makes it collapse "earlier".

Many TOM collapse over time to the point of having their D and G strings starting to buzz because the radius is flatten.

Happened on my 1992 Les Paul Standard not because of docking the TP, but simply over time.

However, I bought a used 2005 SG which had its TP screwed completely down without top wrap and the bridge radius was completely messed up

[rct]

I know it's tantamount to Insanity to say so but in 40 years of playing T-o-M'd guitars I have never EVER had a problem because my E strings touch the rear of the bridge.

 

Not once.

 

Ever.

 

Same here.

 

rct

[L5Larry]

I know it's tantamount to Insanity to say so but in 40 years of playing T-o-M'd guitars I have never EVER had a problem because my E strings touch the rear of the bridge.

 

Not once.

 

Ever.

 

P.

 

Every Strat, every Tele, and any string-through body guitar will have the extra break-angle in the string path as caused by the strings hitting the back of a Gibson TOM. If you feel the need to bottom-out your stopbar, have at it.

[Eracer_Team]

from my understanding of things (which is limited at times) is that there are 2 contact points on the string Nut/Fret at the top and the Bridge Saddle at the other.

 

anything that happens before or after these two points should have minimal effects

 

I do know there are many guitarists that place a ribbon or hair strungy at the headstock behind the nut just to prevent 'ghost' notes other players do not.

 

your guitar is open to your sound, try anything and everything to find your sound

 

 

 

[merciful-evans]

 

 

I do know there are many guitarists that place a ribbon or hair strungy at the headstock behind the nut just to prevent 'ghost' notes other players do not.

 

 

 

This is only done by the tap fellers right?

[capmaster]

...

I do know there are many guitarists that place a ribbon or hair strungy at the headstock behind the nut just to prevent 'ghost' notes other players do not.

...

This is only done by the tap fellers right?

These ghost notes from between Tune-O-Matic and tailpiece clearly cut through via bridge piezos. They fade quite fast but give the acoustic tones from my SG Supra a distinctively bright ringing after attack. Dampening with felt strips makes her sound somewhere in between the piezo tones of my hybrid Power Telecasters and - ironically - Ghost(!)-modded Floyd Rose Stratocasters. Graph Tech Ghost piezos, that is! Absolutely free of ghost notes as usual with double-locking vibrato systems.

[capmaster]

...

Many TOM collapse over time to the point of having their D and G strings starting to buzz because the radius is flatten.

Happened on my 1992 Les Paul Standard not because of docking the TP, but simply over time.

However, I bought a used 2005 SG which had its TP screwed completely down without top wrap and the bridge radius was completely messed up

Oh my God!

[rickc]

I've read some pretty weird theories about tailpiece settings; some say that the tailpiece must be cranked all the way down for "improved sustain". Some claim that lifting the tailpiece reduces the tension on the strings! This is of course bull; the string gauge and the tuning of a string to a note between the nut and bridge saddle determine the tension of the string.

 

I have an '87 Les Paul Custom, an '81 ES Artist and an '88 ES 335 and I set them all the same way; I set the tailpiece height just high enough so that the string completely clears the rear edge of the Tunomatic bridge. I just don't like the string making another sharp angle behind the bridge. Wrapping-around serves the same purpose but lets you drop the tailpiece down to the body. All three play great and sound great; I have no sustain issues due to a raised tailpiece.

 

As commented earlier, not all guitars have the same neck set angle; all three of mine are very different guitars but are all really close to the same neck angle. If a neck angle was extreme then everything post 22nd fret would have to be lifted higher; pickups, bridge and tailpiece and it's conceivable that the set-up would look strange.

 

Unwanted "ghost notes" have been mentioned. These can come from both ends; the strings between the nut and the tuners and the strings between the bridge saddle and the rear bridge edge or tailpiece. I've never had this issue with my guitars. I've seen people put tiny strips of foam rubber under the strings at the head end to prevent resonance.

 

One watch-out is buzzing, particularly on the lower strings; if the tailpiece is raised but not enough for the strings to completely clear the rear edge of the bridge, the strings can buzz on the rear edge of the bridge. Easy to fix; either raise or lower the tailpiece to stop it.

[Jshort]

Some claim that lifting the tailpiece reduces the tension on the strings! This is of course bull;

 

Definitely makes a difference on all of my guitars with TOM bridges. The higher the tail piece the slinkier the strings feel, not bull at all. :)

[Searcy]

Definitely makes a difference on all of my guitars with TOM bridges. The higher the tail piece the slinkier the strings feel, not bull at all. :)

 

Nope.It's total bull.

 

Here are the facts : T (Tension) = (UW x (2 x L x F)2) / 386.4

 

You see, physics will not allow you to raise or lower the tension of a guitar string without changing its pitch. That's because to reach a given pitch, a given string gauge over a given scale length MUST be tightened to an exact tension to play in tune. So no matter what adjustment someone does at the bridge of the guitar, if they returned it so that the high E string is playing in tune than there is no change in string tension.

 

If your goal is to make it easier to bend notes on your guitar get a lighter string gauge and stop dicking around with the bridge.

[Jshort]

Nope.It's total bull.

 

Math or not, I still stand by my opinion. It's very easy for anyone with a TOM bridge to test this themselves so I am definitely not going to argue. :)

[deeman]

Math or not, I still stand by my opinion. It's very easy for anyone with a TOM bridge to test this themselves so I am definitely not going to argue. :)

 

Anecdotal evidence....

 

Lets do a blind fold challenge and see if you can tell. [-(

[pippy]

Math or not, I still stand by my opinion...

Now THAT'S the spirit we like to see, Jshort!

 

Why let the fundamental laws of both Maths and Physics get in the way of a good old-fashioned 'standing by an opinion'?

 

 

Pip.

[Searcy]

Math or not, I still stand by my opinion. It's very easy for anyone with a TOM bridge to test this themselves so I am definitely not going to argue. :)

 

If we were talking about opinions that might matter but we're talking about facts.

[Rabs]

If we were talking about opinions that might matter but we're talking about facts.

If someone believes something enough then it is a fact..

 

Well to them anyway :)

 

Who cares about third party perspective...

[Rabs]

If we were talking about opinions that might matter but we're talking about facts.

Hey man.. I tried to PM you but your box is full....

[Searcy]

If someone believes something enough then it is a fact..

 

 

 

True, and facts, even wrong facts, are not opinions.

[rickc]

This is a guitar myth that I've seen perpetuated on on other sites and YouTube videos.

 

I didn't mean to start a fight but it is, as pointed out, simple physics. I missed scale length from my list above; scale length, string gauge and the tuning of the string are what defines the string tension; nothing else. If a change in setup resulted in a string "feeling" slinkier then the string would also be detuned. This is why lots of players that prefer the feel and tone of thicker strings play dropped a whole note.

 

I have a range of guitars including a little Hohner GT3 that has balls at both ends so no extra string length at each end, some have Tunomatics, some have alternative bridge styles. The only reason to wrap around on a conventional tunomatic/tailpiece combo is to enable the tailpiece to be dropped all the way to the body without creating the sharp break angles between the saddle and the rear edge of the bride and the rear edge of the bridge and the tailpiece. I choose to raise the tailpiece to do the same on my Gibsons.

 

If by slinkyness you are really mean playability then it is part science, part subjective; set the neck almost straight, action really low and use light strings and your guitar strings will be very slinky regardless of your bridge string route. If you also have well developed left hand technique this may be too much which is the main reason many more refined players move to heavier gauges. (I'm not refined! I max out at 010s but prefer 008s).

 

Each to his/her own. If you think wrapping around makes you play better then go for it.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Just to clear this up. String tension is, as many have said, governed entirely by scale length, string gauge and desired pitch.

 

However, there is an important part of this which is often missed. Total string length, including the string outside the scale length (beyond nut and bridge) comes in to play in that, when bending on a longer overall string length, it takes more movement with less force to achieve the desired bent note because the extra tension caused by the bend is spread across the entire string length, not just the scale length. This effects the "feel" but not the actual tension either before the bend or once the bend is achieved. Raising and lowering the stop bar still has absolutely no bearing. If anything, raising it will shorten the overall string length very slightly.

[merciful-evans]

Total string length, including the string outside the scale length (beyond nut and bridge) comes in to play in that, when bending on a longer overall string length, it takes more movement with less force to achieve the desired bent note because the extra tension caused by the bend is spread across the entire string length, not just the scale length. This effects the "feel" but not the actual tension either before the bend or once the bend is achieved.

 

I had never thought of that. Thanks for the insight Farns.