Revolution Casino Japan Limited

[Tynan]

I am looking at purchasing a beautiful casino from a 2nd hand store here in Japan (they usually have better selection than music stores).

I came across a "Revolution" Casino that has an Orange Label.

Model is REVCASINOJPNLTDLN

Number is 671281

It has a normal black epiphonecase, and none of the kitch that usually goes with the John Lennon models.

 

I can't find anything listed about this model. Everything I search for comes back with other John Lennon models with different identifiers.

The price point is about right for a great condition, used model on par with the elitist line, but at 175,000 yen, I want to make sure that I am not about to overpay for the guitar.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can't get any info on it otherwise.

[sparquelito]

Does it look like this one?

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/USCRLNNH?utm_source=MSN&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=revolution_casino&creative=12373436054&device=c&matchtype=p

 

:mellow:

[sparquelito]

The Revolution Casino was from the 'Inspired by' collection, and it was built (If I recall correctly) from 2002 for a few years, and then in 2009 for a few more years.

I don't know if it's still offered.

 

My buddy across town has a Dot in the same natural finish, but his isn't a Revolution Casino.

 

Worth $1,000 USD brand new, it's now worth $800 in mint condition.

 

:)

[charlie brown]

http://epiphonewiki.com/index.php/John_Lennon_Signatures

 

 

The "Inspired by" series was the later (Chinese) versions,

2009-on.

 

The one pictured in the "Sweetwater" ad, was the first series,

("1965" verions...with only 1965 guitars made in each finish (sunburst or "natural").

They were made in Japan, to original Kalamazoo spec's but assembled in Nashville.

They have the mid-60's correct spec's and Nitro finishes, plus (2-screw) truss rod

cover, as well. The necks are one piece, with slight "wings" on the headstock, as

is standard on American made Epiphone's (and Gibson's). The "revolution" version

is just the "natural" finished version. Although, it's a bit of a misnomer, as when

John used it, to play/record "Revolution," it Still had the Kluson small (nickel)

button tuners on it. The gold Grover's came sometime later, post Beatles.

http://www.thecanteen.com/lennon8.html

 

The "Inspired by" has the standard Poly finish, and 3-screw TRC, and the standard

Chinese Epiphone body as most other Epiphone have, these days. They also tend to

have a 3-piece neck, with heal and headstock joints.

 

The Japan/USA versions still command Much Higher re-sale, than

the "Inspired by" series.

 

Hope that helps, a little...

 

CB

[johntrem]

Only played an original John Lennon USA Collection 1965 model Casino once in the late 90's but I'll never forget that neck. It took my breath away.

[deeman]

Irasshaimase!(Spelling?)

 

i don't know the Japanese market, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that guitar in the US selling for about $1,750. I think some of the elitist guitars go for more than that.

 

It sounds like the ichiban guitar for you. If you like it go for it!

[frenchie1281734003]

Hard to tell without photos, but by your description it sounds like a mid 90's Terada made domestic model.

 

Terada did make some period correct Lennon models back then, with mahogany necks, lacquer finishes, two screw TRC, and fret end nibs. However I think those did come with the standard Japan electronics and pickups, and were limited release.

 

The bulk of Terada's Casino output at that time featured 17th fret neck joints and three piece maple necks, as well as three screw TRC's

 

So if you get the chance, give it a good look over, and good luck.

 

Steve.

[bobouz]

Pictures of the headstock & body would help tremendously.

 

The orange label you describe does not sound like the AIUSA (Assembled in USA) version, which CB is talking about in post #4. The AIUSA Revolution Casino is highly desirable with it's Terada-Japan body & Gibson-Nashville hardware/assembly. It has been recognized by many as the finest foreign made Casino copy ever released (along with it's sibling sunburst AIUSA version which recreates Lennon's guitar before he stripped the finish).

 

The more recent Chinese "Inspired By" Revolution Casino (and companion sunburst Lennon version) is a whole different ballgame, and is worth much less.

 

Be careful, or you could easily end up with something that's being (knowingly or unknowingly) misrepresented.

[Tynan]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for the help!

 

I went back and snagged a few pictures of the guitar to see if they could help us identify it.

I actually noticed that it did have the Lennon Casino serial number stamped on it, that the

tuners all say Made in Japan, not Grover, and that there are not nylon saddles on the bridge...if that signifies anything.

It also did not have the birth date inlay on the 12th fret like the 70th Anniversary Japanese market guitars had.

Anyways, thank you again for the help, I can barely find anything online about pricing this model in English or Japanese.

[SG player]

The S/N is different body/headstock, that' s strange

[Tynan]

The S/N is different body/headstock, that' s strange

 

I believe that they stamp the headstock with John Lennon's Casino's S/N, then the label has the actual number.

I played around on it a bit tonight, and it sounds and plays well, but at the price of a new Elitist Casino, I want to make sure to do some research about it.

If I could get an Elitist in the Lennon Natural finish I would do that in a heartbeat.

[bobouz]

Pictures of the front of the body & headstock would offer more clues. Also, pictures of the neck to see if there are any scarfed joints at the heel or base of the headstock. But based on the three photos you've provided, I'd feel confident in saying the following:

 

-This is not the highly regarded AIUSA version. Hardware would have been installed by Gibson in Nashville, so the tuners would not indicate being made in Japan.

 

-The label spells out some of the story: This model was made for the Japanese market, and is a limited edition, recreating Lennon's modified Revolution Casino.

 

-The headstock serial number recreates Lennon's original serial number.

 

-The label serial number does not clearly help indicate the manufacturer. Terada serial numbers often start with a T, but not always. The first digit might possibly indicate that the instrument was made in 2006 - just a guess.

 

So the big question that remains is this: Who manufactured this guitar, and when? If it was made in Japan, it may very well be made by Terada. If so, it would be a high quality instrument, similar to an Elitist. There is a good chance that this is the case. But if it was made by one of Epiphone's Korean manufacturers (Peerless, Samick, Saien, Unsung) and outfitted with Japanese parts, it's value would be significantly less. Ditto for Chinese manufacturers.

 

For sure, an interesting guitar!

[frenchie1281734003]

The Orange label is of the type used by Terada from 87-97, although that usually carried a five digit serial. The serial usually read as YMPPP, year, model, and production number(at this time no factory letter was used).

 

This one is a little odd though, as first digit is 6 which would make it a 96. The second digit should either be a 5 for Casino or 6 for special/ limited edition.Here it is a 7 which was the model code for the EB-2 bass! On top of that there is the extra digit in the production number part of the code.

 

However if we read the code as MYPPPP, then we get 6=special limited edition,7=97, and the other four digits the production number.

 

I would like to see some more photos, but the back of the headstock looks of very similar constructions and quality to the AIUSA "Revolution" version.

 

The bridge and bridge pickup look typical of Japanese made Terada and Matsumoku Epiphones.

 

Looks like a promising guitar.

 

Steve.

 

P.S. more photo's please.

[Tynan]

The Orange label is of the type used by Terada from 87-97, although that usually carried a five digit serial. The serial usually read as YMPPP, year, model, and production number(at this time no factory letter was used).

 

This one is a little odd though, as first digit is 6 which would make it a 96. The second digit should either be a 5 for Casino or 6 for special/ limited edition.Here it is a 7 which was the model code for the EB-2 bass! On top of that there is the extra digit in the production number part of the code.

 

However if we read the code as MYPPPP, then we get 6=special limited edition,7=97, and the other four digits the production number.

 

I would like to see some more photos, but the back of the headstock looks of very similar constructions and quality to the AIUSA "Revolution" version.

 

The bridge and bridge pickup look typical of Japanese made Terada and Matsumoku Epiphones.

 

Looks like a promising guitar.

 

Steve.

 

P.S. more photo's please.

 

I found an old auction in Japan that has the same model of guitar here Revolution Casino Japan Limited

I did notice that the neck joint had an insert, but I didn't think to photograph it.

[frenchie1281734003]

Hi Tynan,

 

If the casino you are looking into is the same model as the link you offered, then it is a Terada made limited edition Revolution Casino. It will be of comparable quality to an Elitist/AIUSA Casino, probably only differing from the AIUSA Revolution model in it's hardware.

 

The AIUSA models have a true one piece mahogany neck (not counting the little headstock wing pieces), with thin fret end binding, and a 17 degree headstock angle. The Elitist on the other hand has a two piece neck with added heel, thicker neck binding that doesn't cover the fret ends, and a 14 degree headstock angle. This one may have the AIUSA neck but with the Elitist added heel!

 

Going out on a limb I would guess the Casino you are looking at has a lacquer finish. The wiring and hardware the same as that found on the standard Elitist model. The pickups are more than likely the same make as those found on pre-Elitist Terada/Matsumoku Casino's. The tailpiece in the link though, does look like the longer 6 inch heavy version.

 

To get it up to true AIUSA spec you will probably need to change out the pickups and wiring. Change the bridge saddles for nylon, and swap the tuners for Grover rotomatic. It looks like it has a two screw TRC.

 

I have recently done all these mods to my 2014 Elitist Casino, which now has Bourn's mini pots, Mallory caps, all braided wiring, Switchcraft switch and Jack. An allparts nickel 6 inch tailpiece, Gold Grovers, Kluson non wire ABR bridge with nylon saddles, and to finish off, a real 1966 truss rod cover.

 

Hope this helps, good luck, and keep us informed.

 

Steve.

[Tynan]

Hi Tynan,

 

If the casino you are looking into is the same model as the link you offered, then it is a Terada made limited edition Revolution Casino. It will be of comparable quality to an Elitist/AIUSA Casino, probably only differing from the AIUSA Revolution model in it's hardware.

 

The AIUSA models have a true one piece mahogany neck (not counting the little headstock wing pieces), with thin fret end binding, and a 17 degree headstock angle. The Elitist on the other hand has a two piece neck with added heel, thicker neck binding that doesn't cover the fret ends, and a 14 degree headstock angle. This one may have the AIUSA neck but with the Elitist added heel!

 

Going out on a limb I would guess the Casino you are looking at has a lacquer finish. The wiring and hardware the same as that found on the standard Elitist model. The pickups are more than likely the same make as those found on pre-Elitist Terada/Matsumoku Casino's. The tailpiece in the link though, does look like the longer 6 inch heavy version.

 

To get it up to true AIUSA spec you will probably need to change out the pickups and wiring. Change the bridge saddles for nylon, and swap the tuners for Grover rotomatic. It looks like it has a two screw TRC.

 

I have recently done all these mods to my 2014 Elitist Casino, which now has Bourn's mini pots, Mallory caps, all braided wiring, Switchcraft switch and Jack. An allparts nickel 6 inch tailpiece, Gold Grovers, Kluson non wire ABR bridge with nylon saddles, and to finish off, a real 1966 truss rod cover.

 

Hope this helps, good luck, and keep us informed.

 

Steve.

 

Wow, thank you so much for the thorough answer. I have been trying to decide between this and a new elitist, as they are basically the same price. I absolutely love the finish on the Revolution, and the neck is also great, although it does seem to be slightly off in intonation. I guess that the Revolution's price is about $1700, and I would want to do a little bit of work on the hardware as well, bumping the final cost up a bit to about $2000-$2200.

 

Do you have any idea what the list price of one of these would be? I can get a new

natural finished elitist for the exact same price here in Japan

[Tynan]

Howdy!

 

I went and checked the guitar out again, here are some photos that show the guitar in a bit more detail.

I am still searching for a price that would be appropriate for this guitar, as I have no idea what it should sell for.

[frenchie1281734003]

Having now seen the additional photos I can tell you that this Casino is pretty much the same as the John Lennon "Revolution" AIUSA model, in terms of the body and neck. However all the hardware is standard Japanese. If it were mine, I would only change the saddles for Nylon, the tailpiece for the larger Allparts 6 inch one.

 

As for the pickups, they are usually Gotoh and pretty good, although a little lacking in character compared to those found on the Elitist. However the covers look great and the pickups can easily be rewound to taste.

 

I would leave the tuners as are, but I think you will find that gold Grover Rotomatics will fit quite easily without any modification.

 

The extra piece of Rosewood under the fretboard extension is correct and is found on the Elitist and Lennon models too.

 

You may wish to change out the electronics, but check first.

 

If you can get it for the same price as a second hand Elitist Casino, I think you have done well.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Steve.

[frenchie1281734003]

Just to add, the intonation issue should be easy to sort out at the saddles, with a tuner and a slot head screwdriver.

 

Steve.

[bobouz]

With the additional photos, I agree that this is the same body Terada produced for the AIUSA version, but rather than being shipped to Nashville, it was fully assembled in their Japanese factory with different hardware.

 

There's a chance that the pickups might be the same ones used in Elitist Casinos, since the Revolution & Elitist models were being manufactured at the same time for a number of years, and therefore the USA-made Elitist pickups would have been available for use on Terada's production line. Regardless, if you like the tone & playability, no need to change anything.

 

So what we now know is that this guitar has an absolutely superb high quality body. The only remaining unknown factor here is the hardware. You will not find a better Asian-made Casino body anywhere, and I would view this guitar as very desirable.

 

What you're willing to pay is another question, but personally, the upper end of my comfort level would be around $1500. At a price closer to $2000, hunting down a used recent issue ES-330 would be well worth considering (if you lived in the USA). I have both the 2010 ES-330L & 2012 ES-330 VOS models, and although quite different in execution, imho they are a significant cut above my Elitist Casino. On the other hand, my AIUSA John Lee Hooker Sheraton (the only other AIUSA Epi model), is absolutely on a par with any Gibson I own, including two very nice 335s.

 

Hope it all works out to your liking!

[frenchie1281734003]

This Casino is from the pre-Elitist period Bobouz, and as such I think the pickups are probably Gotoh. U.S. made P90s have a pole spacing of 50mm between the centre of each E string pole piece for both pickups. On the Japanese pickups the pole spacing is the same on the bridge, but a slightly reduced 48mm on the neck pickup, which Tynan's photo seems to support, this is great for having the poles directly under each string, but isn't found in Gibson neck dogears.

 

If you want to get the guitar as close as possible to John Lennon's "Revolution" spec then this is a better starting point to my mind than a standard Elitist. And with a little time, effort and outlay, can be easily achieved.

 

Steve.

[bobouz]

This Casino is from the pre-Elitist period Bobouz, and as such I think the pickups are probably Gotoh.

Hi Steve. I would definitely defer to your greater knowledge re pre-2000 Terada-made Epiphones, and yes, the pickups may indeed not be Elitist-USA Epis. But by pre-Elitist, what time period are you referring to?

 

My guess is that this guitar was not made before the AIUSA versions were released in 2000, which I believe was the first time Epi used the "Revolution" marketing moniker. With the release of the AIUSA models, I'm again guessing that it was an easy switch for Terada to produce the exact same body while capturing the Revolution theme for the home market.

 

Production of the Elite (Elitist) line began in late 2002 or 2003 as I recall, so co-production of AIUSA Casinos & Elitists lasted for quite a few years. Therefore, it seems possible re the use of Elitist pickups. We simply don't know for sure - but this seems like a relatively minor point. Of more value to me would be the quality of the body. If this guitar indeed was produced at the exact same time as the AIUSA models and carries a nitro finish along with all the other notable AIUSA hallmarks, it's overall high quality then clearly becomes a known factor.

 

So when discussing this particular instrument, in my mind pre-Elitist would only constitute the first few years of AIUSA production. If you believe this guitar was produced by Terada before 2000, then we are on altogether different tracks! Again it's a guess, but I'm thinking Terada would not have produced a Lennon-Revolution guitar in such detail until commissioned to do so by Gibson for the AIUSA models.

 

The mystery continues!

[frenchie1281734003]

I'm pretty confident the guitar in question is from 96/7 (Terada used the Orange label between 87-97), and is a limited run for the Japanese domestic market.

 

Epiphone Terada are doing very much the same thing now with the current Elitist 65 Casino limited edition and 66 Riviera models.

 

Steve.

[bobouz]

I'm pretty confident the guitar in question is from 96/7 (Terada used the Orange label between 87-97), and is a limited run for the Japanese domestic market.

Well, I'm going to stick with my guess of somewhere in the 2000s, but with the qualifier that I certainly could be wrong! No question this was a limited run for Japanese consumption, and although there were many unique instruments produced for their domestic market prior to 2000, it just seems unlikely to me that a Japanese Revolution model with such a high level of body detail would have been in Gibson's wheelhouse prior to the AIUSA model.

 

Re the orange label, it is very similar to labels from the 2000s for Korean & Chinese production. As this was not an AIUSA or Elitist model, Terada utilizing the rather generic Epi label would seem to make sense.

 

Hopefully someone will be able to add a new chapter to this thread that rounds out the story!

 

Bob

[frenchie1281734003]

http://www.geocities.co.jp/MusicStar-Vocal/7486/casino66938.jpg

 

This is a Terada made Casino from 96.

 

Serial number 66938.