My Epiphone Casino - Your Assistance Please.

[TheBelontoKid]

Hi Everyone,

 

Great to find a forum for my favourite guitars - Epiphones!

 

I've owned my Epiphone Casino since 1995. The only thing I've ever changed on it from stock are the tuners which I upgraded to Grovers.

I'm considering getting the wiring upgraded in due course but that's another story.

 

I bought the Casino in Toronto when at the time I was told it was "new" but that it was Japanese.

 

When my luthier installed Grovers he was really taken w/ the guitar & later told me it was a Japanese model from the late 70's early 80's which I think would make it a Matsmoku.

 

Recently I have been doing some research as I want to know more about it & the precise output of the P-90's that are in my guitar.

 

Serial numbers on the back of the headstock are II00697 which indicate that it was made in Korea in 1991.

 

I gather that there is considerable confusion where Epiphone serial numbers are concerned & that they can "confuse" the matter.

 

Whose right. The original seller from 1995, the luthier or the serial numbers.

 

I am really hoping to make head or tail of this so any assistance would be greatly appreciated. It seems/feels like a great guitar, possibly a "special" guitar so I'd like to know exactly what it is I got here.

 

Thanks & Kind Regards From Belfast!

[Zentar]

The big deal with Casinos is the brand of P90s. Gibson or Epiphone? The Gibbys are heads above the EPIS.

 

Once you get west of Hawaii it is tough to determine much from ser numbers. The Korean Casinos are desirable for their wood craftsmanship. They're well made and cost a bit more than Chinese.

Their electronics can be iffy. (so I've read)

 

Casinos have been made in Kalamazoo, Japan, Korea and China

[AldoMcD1]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

 

Your guitar (in my opinion) is a Japanese Matsumoko made Epiphone Casino dating from 1981.

 

1 = Year (1981);

10 = Month (October);

0698 = Production number.

[TheBelontoKid]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

 

Your guitar (in my opinion) is a Japanese Matsumoko made Epiphone Casino dating from 1981.

 

1 = Year (1981);

10 = Month (October);

0698 = Production number.

 

 

Aldo - thanks for this. So the "II" are 1's & not capital i's "in your opinion". Fascinating. Confirms what I've been told all along of course!!!

 

It was the www.guitardaterproject.org that led me to believe it was Korean. :(

 

I'll have to try & find out about whether the P-90's on these Matsumoto builds may differ from the P-90's on others.

 

Also interested if anyone else has any differing opinions on this.

[AldoMcD1]

Yes, I'm fairly certain this is Japanese, however I'm sure there are people on here who can confirm 100%.

 

I own two Sheratons from this period and everything seems to match up (e.g. brown / tan label in the 'f' hole with 'ASB' denoting the antique sunburst finish).

 

Have a look on the unofficial Epiphone Wiki page for more details in relation to pickups etc.

 

In my experience, I've found the guitar dater website to be unreliable. Particularly for some 70's / 80's Epiphone models.

 

My understanding is that guitars from this era generally had a 7 digit numeric serial in which the first digit signified the year (as per my previous post).

 

Some of the more recent models (90's onwards) have an alphanumeric serial number whereby the serial starts with a letter (which denotes the factory of production) followed by a number. If your Casino was a 90's model, I would generally expect the serial number to start with a letter.

 

For example, my Epiphone Hummingbird has serial number S96120052.

S = Samick Plant (Korea);

96 = 1996 (Year);

12 = December (Month);

0052 = Production Number.

[Parabar]

I concur with AldoMcD1. The Matsumoku Casinos had a slightly different body shape than the later Korean Samick made ones. It's not something I can easily put into words, but having seen numerous examples of both, yours has the distinctive Matsumoku shape.

 

I also am not aware of Samick using that dark antique sunburst finish on Casinos, although they did use it on Sheratons.

[frenchie1281734003]

Your Casino is Matsumoku, and is from October 81. The pickups are either Maxon or Gotoh, and probably the latter. Those pickups compare favourably to those made by Gibson for the Elitist. Gotoh,s in comparison are wound a little hotter, and lack a little character/ richness, but are pretty raunchy when driven.

 

You can have them rewound to taste if that suits your needs. As for the wiring, the Matsumoku,s have Switchcraft selector switch and Jack socket, along with braided wire and shielded pots. So unless you have any problems I would leave as is.

 

From your photo it appears as though the bridge has been changed on your Casino.

 

Steve.

[TheBelontoKid]

I concur with AldoMcD1. The Matsumoku Casinos had a slightly different body shape than the later Korean Samick made ones. It's not something I can easily put into words, but having seen numerous examples of both, yours has the distinctive Matsumoku shape.

 

I also am not aware of Samick using that dark antique sunburst finish on Casinos, although they did use it on Sheratons.

 

 

Fascinating stuff Parabar. Thanks for this information. I didn't know a) that the Matsomoku guitars had a different shape & B) that the finish was called dark antique sunburst. I know it's not common so... Cheers! :)

[TheBelontoKid]

 

Your Casino is Matsumoku, and is from October 81. The pickups are either Maxon or Gotoh, and probably the latter. Those pickups compare favourably to those made by Gibson for the Elitist. Gotoh,s in comparison are wound a little hotter, and lack a little character/ richness, but are pretty raunchy when driven.

 

You can have them rewound to taste if that suits your needs. As for the wiring, the Matsumoku,s have Switchcraft selector switch and Jack socket, along with braided wire and shielded pots. So unless you have any problems I would leave as is.

 

From your photo it appears as though the bridge has been changed on your Casino.

 

Steve.

 

 

Nice one Steve. The info on the pickups being Gotoh is really useful man. It's good to know that I've probably got pickups that are a little hotter for when I get the new BlaknBlu w/ the Gibson pickups. I've a better idea now of what to expect from them. The guitar definitely does "cook" on the bridge pickup. The neck pickup is warm but always up for something w/ a bit more depth/character.

 

You've said that the Gotoh picks compare favourably so I'd be less inclined to change them knowing that they are decent quality not that that was ever something I was considering on this axe. A rewind scares me a bit cause I'm not sure what to ask for. I've some good options in Belfast to get them round. A new boutique pickup here called Amdusias so I'll chat w/ them about options perhaps. I don't want to change too much of what I have, just wanna work w/ what I got.

 

As for the wiring, i don't know much about electronics, let alone Switchcraft stuff, braided wire & shielded pots. If you don't think it's going to be an "upgrade" to rewire as my luthier has offered to do by hand instead of w/a kit in search of improved signal then I'll leave it.

 

Don't know that about the bridge - wonder that why was done. As I bought it apparently "new" in 1991, I'm pretty sure I'm the sole owner so more weirdness lol.

 

Love finding out about a guitar's family line, heritage DNA. Cool stuff & many thanks! :)

[frenchie1281734003]

The bridge on yours is the wider "Nashville" type, probably added for two reasons,

1). No rattle, because it has no retaining wire.

2). More saddle travel for better intonation.

 

The original bridge would have been stamped "Japan" underneath.

 

The "Creamery" in Manchester rewinds pickups for about £100 a pair, you just need to be able to describe the tone you want.

 

I've owned three Matsumoku Casino's over the years and love them. I currently have an Elitist Casino which I have rewired.

 

Steve.

[TheBelontoKid]

The bridge on yours is the wider "Nashville" type, probably added for two reasons,

1). No rattle, because it has no retaining wire.

2). More saddle travel for better intonation.

 

The original bridge would have been stamped "Japan" underneath.

 

The "Creamery" in Manchester rewinds pickups for about £100 a pair, you just need to be able to describe the tone you want.

 

I've owned three Matsumoku Casino's over the years and love them. I currently have an Elitist Casino which I have rewired.

 

Steve.

 

Cool man thanks again for this "treasure trove" of info. That's cool historical info to have re the bridge - cool customisation!

 

Yeah I am also familiar w/ the Creamery & have been in touch w/ Jamie recently & in the past.

I'm not convinced yet that rewinding pickups is going to be something I NEED to do OR that will definitely benefit my guitar(s). There are many different schools of thought on it & open up a can of worms + a different conversation altogether lol.

 

However I'm very interested to understand yer rationale behind re-wiring an Elitist Casino (effectively a "top of the line" guitar.

As you know it's something I have been considering but...

Did you do it yourself or was it a kit?

How did it affect the tonality if at all?

 

Cheers

[Zentar]

It's easy to measure the DCR of the pickups. This usually tells you a lot about them. Just stick the meter leads to the end of a short cable. Flip the selector switch to pick which pup you measure.

The Epi P90s are around 12ko and use 43awg wire. These can sound dark.

Gibson P90s - 8ko and use 42awg wire. I doubt you have Gibbys in yours.

PAF level DCRs (8ko approx)generate the really fine jangly Casino tones.

If Creamery will rewind them $100 a pair that's a good price. A set of Gibby P90s cost $200.

 

GOTOH P90

 

I hope you post the DCR of your fine Japanese Casino. Ive never had a jap model and would be very curious

[TheBelontoKid]

It's easy to measure the DCR of the pickups. This usually tells you a lot about them. Just stick the meter leads to the end of a short cable. Flip the selector switch to pick which pup you measure.

The Epi P90s are around 12ko and use 43awg wire. These can sound dark.

Gibson P90s - 8ko and use 42awg wire. I doubt you have Gibbys in yours.

PAF level DCRs (8ko approx)generate the really fine jangly Casino tones.

If Creamery will rewind them $100 a pair that's a good price. A set of Gibby P90s cost $200.

 

I hope you post the DCR of your fine Japanese Casino. Ive never had a jap model and would be very curious.

 

Awesome stuff Zentar. I don't have a meter reader but I will source one & post this info for you. Thanks for the specs on the P90's. Really useful. Good to understand this difference between my Japanese P90's & what I can expect from the Gibsons. I kind of want a mellower sound actually cause the Japanese one is damn hot...!

 

The Creamery are actually £100 according to Frenchy (Steve)so that's almost the cost of a new set of pups...w/ that in mind this is why I am wanting to understand better the potential benefits of a re-wind if the pups aren't dead seeing as a new set of pups are almost the same cost. Wouldn't want to mess up existing pups so to speak. Diff schools of thought so...

[Zentar]

Even a cheap meter is a must for any tool kit. Get one that beeps when you check continuity. Walmart, Kmart lowes, Home depot.

 

I use a set of Kent Armstrong P90s I found for $120. Check holliday sales and you can find KA P90s for less than what I paid. They really impressed me. I didn't want to spend $200 on new pups because I just spent that on my LP. I couldn't get into the Epi P90s I had. They were wound way too hot. They would be better suited for a solid body guitar not a hollowbody IMO.

P90 /Kent Armstrong(free shipping)

Mine measured 8.1ko and 8.2ko which is similar to Gibson readings

[frenchie1281734003]

 

However I'm very interested to understand yer rationale behind re-wiring an Elitist Casino (effectively a "top of the line" guitar.

As you know it's something I have been considering but...

Did you do it yourself or was it a kit?

How did it affect the tonality if at all?

 

Cheers

 

I've always been a tinkerer at heart, so I was always going to modify my Elitist Casino anyway. However the facts remain that the Elitist Casino's wiring isn't exactly what you would expect on a top of the line guitar,(It might have been when first released in 02, although I haven't examined one). My wiring harness consisted of Alpha mini pots with very small yellow chicklet caps on the tone pots, very thin wiring and usual fare Epiphone Jack socket and switch.

 

I replaced with a wiring harness I bought off ebay from seller, JKbookshelf. This harness consisted of Bourn's mini pots with imperial 3/8 thread size, but metric 18 groove spline, so that I could use the existing knobs (Gibson gold top hat knobs are expensive).

The switch and Jack are switchcraft. All wiring braided, and the capacitors are white Mallory 150's. I had to buy a new set of pointers to fit the 3/8 opening. The whole harness came to £45 including postage and duty, although that was pre brexit!!

 

 

I took out the existing electronics, enlarged the four pot holes and the switch hole to accommodate. Soldered the Elitist pickups to the volume pots, added an earth wire from the neck tone pot going out to the tailpiece, and put it all back together. The very fiddly bit is getting the pots, Jack, switch and earth wire back into place. I found using thin wire poked through the holes and tied around the parts, to pull back through worked, although fiddly. I went earth lead first, treble volume and tone along with Jack together, but make sure you secure the jack first. Finally pull through the neck volume and tone pots, by this time the three way switch is virtually where you want it to be. Allow yourself a good 3 to 6 hours to do the job!!

 

Oh I forgot to say that I enlarged the holes with a reaming tool finishing with sand paper. I did intend to use my dremel, but didn't have the right bits.

 

Does it make a real difference? Well the pots feel really nice with a good taper, I feel more confident in having the more solid switchcraft switch and Jack. The tone is a bit smoother with the Mallory's, but having said that, I think the other changes I've made to the guitar, have had a greater bearing on it's tone. Namely it's Kluson ABR bridge with nylon saddles (Plastic saddles give a different tone), and the new 6 inch heavier duty trapeze tailpiece.

 

I am a big fan of the Gibson made Elitist P-90 pickup, it very much captures that Beatles/Paul Weller tone, and is noticeably more complex than the Gotoh/Maxon type. However the pickup covers found on the Matsumoku's look a lot more convincing, justlike the original one's, even with the smaller pole spacing found on the neck pickup.

 

That was why I suggested the rewind. But even left as stock the Matsumoku Casino is a very fine guitar. The wood working on the Elitist Casino is superb, but I've always loved the necks on the Matsumoku version, along with the figured 5 ply they used. My Elitist looks a little bland by comparison.

 

Steve.

[TheBelontoKid]

Awesome stuff Zentar. I don't have a meter reader but I will source one & post this info for you. Thanks for the specs on the P90's. Really useful. Good to understand this difference between my Japanese P90's & what I can expect from the Gibsons. I kind of want a mellower sound actually cause the Japanese one is damn hot...!

 

The Creamery are actually £100 according to Frenchy (Steve)so that's almost the cost of a new set of pups...w/ that in mind this is why I am wanting to understand better the potential benefits of a re-wind if the pups aren't dead seeing as a new set of pups are almost the same cost. Wouldn't want to mess up existing pups so to speak. Diff schools of thought so...

 

So I brought my Matsumoku Casino down to the local music store & got them to put a multimeter to the Gotoh P90's.

Readings as follows:

 

Bridge: 8.58

Neck:9.8

Dual Output (middle switch): 7.5

 

This wasn't what I was expecting..

 

A: I expected the bridge pickup to be a hotter output than the neck.

B: The neck reading swung about wildly until it settled at 9.8.

 

The guitar sounds great (neck is warm/woody etc...) but I'm confused by these readings...is there something wrong or...?

[Parabar]

Typically the neck pickup is louder because the strings vibrate more farther away from the bridge or nut. Bridge pickups are often wound hotter to compensate for the difference in output. But if you like the way both pickups sound both separately and together, there's no need to change anything.

[Zentar]

So I brought my Matsumoku Casino down to the local music store & got them to put a multimeter to the Gotoh P90's.

Readings as follows:

 

Bridge: 8.58

Neck:9.8

Dual Output (middle switch): 7.5

 

This wasn't what I was expecting..

 

A: I expected the bridge pickup to be a hotter output than the neck.

B: The neck reading swung about wildly until it settled at 9.8.

 

The guitar sounds great (neck is warm/woody etc...) but I'm confused by these readings...is there something wrong or...?

 

I missed your post but I find it extremely interesting that your P90s measured 8.5ko and 9.8ko which is within spec for 42awg coil wire that Gibson uses. Are you sure you don't have Gibson P90s in your Epiphone Casino? Those are in line with Gibson USA P90 readings.

Which model Casino do you have? The Elitest and Gary Clark Jr models have Gibson USA P90s not Epiphone P90s

My Casino P90s were both over 12ko which is typical of Gotoh Chinese made P90s. 12ko is typical of P90s using 43awg coil wire.

 

I'm not fsmiliar with Matsumoku but it sounds like you have Gibson P90s.

 

I have another guitar with a pair of Gibson P90s that measure 8.1ko each. I have yet still another(LP Jr) with a Gibson P90 that reads 7.9ko.

Sorry I missed your post.