Jump to content
Gibson Brands Forums

Need help about my studio's sustain


Kul2enai

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

 

When the first time I get my 2016 studio T, the action is very easy to play and the sustain stay very long.

Now I've change the string to Elixir .010 - .046 and then i've setup the neck relief and action according to this guide "http://diystrat.blogspot.de/2012/09/how-to-set-up-gibson-les-paul-style.html" .

But the sustain is very short, and when i set the bridge higher the sustain is stay long but it's very hard to play (don't like the first time).

 

How can i have a good sustain and action that easy to play like when i get my studio the first time?

 

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

When the first time I get my 2016 studio T, the action is very easy to play and the sustain stay very long.

Now I've change the string to Elixir .010 - .046 and then i've setup the neck relief and action according to this guide "http://diystrat.blogspot.de/2012/09/how-to-set-up-gibson-les-paul-style.html" .

But the sustain is very short, and when i set the bridge higher the sustain is stay long but it's very hard to play (don't like the first time).

 

How can i have a good sustain and action that easy to play like when i get my studio the first time?

 

Thanks.

 

Put the action back to where it was, or now that you know the basics of a LP set up, adjust it to your personal liking. And maybe try other strings/brand.

 

And may I ask why you changed the relief if it play well?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Put the action back to where it was, or now that you know the basics of a LP set up, adjust it to your personal liking. And maybe try other strings/brand.

 

And may I ask why you changed the relief if it play well?

 

Thanks Mr. C.O. Jones.

cause when i change string to Elixir the gap between string and the top of the 8th fret is too narrow they collide together (capo at the first fret and hold down the low E string on the last fret).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi.

 

In your post you say "...the action is very easy to play and the sustain stay very long...".

As has already been asked; if it played so well why did you change it in the first place?

 

What, EXACTLY, did you change?

I've read through the post in the link you mention and it's all correct so whatever it was you adjusted you adjusted it / them it incorrectly.

Try again. Try to remember what you changed and put it back where it was.

Take your time and try to understand fully what the guy is saying - don't just jump to a conclusion as you might head-off in the wrong direction again.

 

Without knowing what you did we cannot really offer any meaningful advice but there are only three places where things can be set wrongly (it will NOT be the strings).

If it's the truss-rod which is badly adjusted then you should be able to correct the problem - assuming you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

The tailpiece and bridge should similarly be an easy fix.

If, however, you meddled about with metal-files in your nut-slots and have cut them too deep and / or wide then you will need to have the nut replaced.

If You Are Not Comfortable Doing ANY PART Of This Work Then Take The Guitar To a Luthier.

 

Good luck.

 

Pip.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi.

 

In your post you say "...the action is very easy to play and the sustain stay very long...".

As has already been asked; if it played so well why did you change it in the first place?

 

What, EXACTLY, did you change?

I've read through the post in the link you mention and it's all correct so whatever it was you adjusted you adjusted it / them it incorrectly.

Try again. Try to remember what you changed and put it back where it was.

Take your time and try to understand fully what the guy is saying - don't just jump to a conclusion as you might head-off in the wrong direction again.

 

Without knowing what you did we cannot really offer any meaningful advice but there are only three places where things can be set wrongly (it will NOT be the strings).

If it's the truss-rod which is badly adjusted then you should be able to correct the problem - assuming you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

The tailpiece and bridge should similarly be an easy fix.

If, however, you meddled about with metal-files in your nut-slots and have cut them too deep and / or wide then you will need to have the nut replaced.

If You Are Not Comfortable Doing ANY PART Of This Work Then Take The Guitar To a Luthier.

 

Good luck.

 

Pip.

 

Thanks pippy,

very helpful I'll try it again and if it don't work I'll take my studio to guitar care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks pippy,

very helpful I'll try it again and if it don't work I'll take my studio to guitar care.

 

No shame in taking the guitar in. I used to try to do it myself in my poorer years but was never that good at it. I'd rather not screw anything up.

 

Best of luck man

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried setting the neck relief, action, and pickup heights Gibson spec as a starting point and see?

 

Neck relief at 7th fret - .012 with automotive feeler gauge - Capo first fret and in playing position press low E 22nd fret and slide feeler gauge between low E and top of 7th fret.

 

Action - Capo removed and in playing position at 12th fret Low E 5/64 and high E 3/64

 

Neck pickup hold down Low E and High E at 22nd fret, 3/32 from top of pole piece to bottom of string both sides

 

Bridge pickup 4/64ths both sides

 

Try this as starting point and see if the sustain and playability is good. I should play with lots of sustain. If action is too low for you raise it if too high lower it, too low and strings will buzz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

Action - Capo removed and in playing position at 12th fret Low E 5/64 and high E 3/64

...

Gibson says E6th 6/64 and E1st 4/64. If tone is a consideration, 6/64 (2.4mm) for the E6th and 11/128 or 5.5/64 (2.2mm) for the E1st @ 12th fret would be realistic as starting points.

 

Little action eats up tone, frets and strings. Most suggestions for string action on the web are ridiculously small. They are comfortable for beginners avoiding clean tones and make luthiers lots of money through refretting jobs, but that's it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gibson says E6th 6/64 and E1st 4/64. If tone is a consideration, 6/64 (2.4mm) for the E6th and 11/128 or 5.5/64 (2.2mm) for the E1st @ 12th fret would be realistic as starting points.

 

Little action eats up tone, frets and strings. Most suggestions for string action on the web are ridiculously small. They are comfortable for beginners avoiding clean tones and make luthiers lots of money through refretting jobs, but that's it.

 

This.

 

Super low action really isn't very useful in my opinion. When I play guitar or bass with incredibly low action it sounds awful.

 

 

My fix would be to raise the action back up to where the stain is where I want it. If then you find it difficult to play, switch to lighter gauge strings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cap, no Gibson spec on electrics is 5/64 and 3/64. Go to the Gibson Tech Tips for Basic Setup it gives the current setup specs

 

http://www.gibson.com/Support/Tech-Tips/Basic-Guitar-Setup.aspx This is the standard action that Gibson uses, it is not low at all, I have played my Gibsons at this spec for over 50 years and have never fretted out or had any loss of sustain and it goes for my Les Pauls, SGs, and ES 335s. If you have less than .012 neck relief at 7th fret the action will appear higher. Just got a new SG yesterday from Sweetwater and it was produced Aug 20th., and I unboxed it right out of the sealed factory box, let it sit in gig bag overnight. I just measured the setup and it was right on, .012 neck relief, and action at 5/64 and 3/64....It plays super, it is fast, tons of sustain, and no fret buzz or rattles,,bends like a noodle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was referring to this - see page 2: http://archive.gibson.com/files/_gbme/GBME_Guide.pdf

 

Gibson factory specs for the '59 Les Paul w/ 2 PAF HBs have been in 1959 @ 12th fret: E6th 1/8 (3.2mm) and E1st 3/32 (2.4mm)

 

Gibson factory specs for the '78 Les Paul w/ 2 P-90s have been in 1978 @ 12th fret: E6th 1/16 (1.6mm) and E1st 3/64 (1.2mm)

 

Do you think it's the guitars or the fashions? Do the pickups make any difference? Any questions where the tone is?

 

You may also refer to this: http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/string-height-tip-0204-2012.aspx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, that guide is a piano outfit and not the authorized Gibson site. The Warranty even states it is not covered for buzzes etc when action is less than the standard action shown in the owners manual. The new manuals don't show it, but my 2013 Les Paul Owners manual shows the same thing that the below shows from the Gibson website Owners Information Guide in addition to the Gibson site Basic Setup. Below is the link from Gibson website and also an extract of Gibson published "Standard Action". This is the current published spec. It was the same also in my owners manual for the 1999 Les Paul Classic I no longer own.

 

http://www.gibson.com/Support/Tech-Support/Information-Guide.aspx

 

Action

The term "action" defines the distance that a string must be depressed before it meets the fret. Action measurements are taken in 64ths of an inch and are calculated from the top of the 12th fret on the underside of the string. We set the action on all instruments at the factory to the optimum playability setting. On occasion, lower than standard settings may be desired by the player. This can be achieved by adjusting the bridge studs, although it could result in string "buzz" or "rattle" (this is caused by the string vibrating against the fret). "Buzz" or "rattle" caused by lower than standard string action is not considered a defect of the instrument.

 

STANDARD ACTION CHART

(Action at the 12th fret)

Treble Side Bass Side

Electric Guitar 3/64 5/64

Acoustic Guitar 4/64 6/64

Banjo 7/64 7/64

Mandolin 5/64 5/64

Bass Guitar 5/64 7/64

 

To answer your question Cap, since he just put heavier strings on it, the tension changed from what he had before and could have pulled the neck relief or from tension of the strings made the action lower in the upper frets. Both I think contributed to his problem. That is why I recommended he first check the neck relief and adjust. Let it sit a day or so and check it again to make sure the relief is still at .012, then adjust the action to Gibson standard spec, retune and intonate and see what it is doing then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those standard actions definitely are not what a good tone calls for. They may work with heavily corroded strings - I know that since a bandmate of mine sweats strings to dead in less than ten minutes. They don't have any brightness left, so after those first ten minutes there's no annoying buzz. They just sound dead regardless of action, but keep on eating frets and are eaten by the frets, too. Their undersides look really funny after some playing hours. [biggrin]

 

He often plays a guitar borrowed from me but I insist on staying with a decent string action. The strings also sound dead rather fast but don't buzz from the start, don't eat frets and are not eaten by them. It's the power of proper action.

 

Everybody who plays hybrid solid-body guitars with piezo bridges knows what action a good sound takes. An action sufficient for full-range acoustic tones will do for all the magnetic pickups tones, too. Playing an electric guitar featuring nice pickups with new strings through a full-range acoustic system will also tell the truth.

 

Those "standard action charts" are released by marketing people. Every sensible player knows better. Stevie Ray Vaughan knew, Ritchie Blackmore and Joe Bonamassa know.

 

...

 

To answer your question Cap, since he just put heavier strings on it, the tension changed from what he had before and could have pulled the neck relief or from tension of the strings made the action lower in the upper frets. Both I think contributed to his problem. That is why I recommended he first check the neck relief and adjust. Let it sit a day or so and check it again to make sure the relief is still at .012, then adjust the action to Gibson standard spec, retune and intonate and see what it is doing then.

More string tension increasing neck relief will increase the actual action at higher frets, not decrease. Readjusting relief will leave the previous action adjustment unaltered if it was not changed unnecessarily. Neither correct neck relief nor appropriate action depend on string gauges in any way. Physics can't be fooled, neither by players nor by marketing people.

 

Settling of a relief adjustment may take some days, and the need for a delicate correction after some months or weeks is likely. This is at least the case for me since I like my guitars set up nicely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, no argument....I have been unsensible for over 40 years then. I guess Joe Bonamasso is too! I got to measure one of his R9 Les Paul setups, Also Brent Mason's Tele, Chuck Berry's, and one of Eric Clapton's.......Bob Seger, and many other's.....I have been playing since 10 years old and had private in home lesson's for 2 years, Mr Lopez out of Mel Bay's store in Kirkwood, MO at the time. I learned right, Lopez had a masters degree in music and guitar, wore a suit when he came once a week for an hour. Apparently we disagree and your bandmates must beat the hell out of the guitars or the setup is way off to deaden strings like that.....I used to play 4 hours a day and never had that happen. Gibson and Fender factory specs have always suited me and are the sound and tone has always matched the record and CDs. Each player depended on whether they play lightly, normal, degree of learning or just picked it up on their own all have variances in their setup, but to call someone not a sensible player because the prefer the optimum playability for tone and sound just as the specs are is wrong. Afterall the optimum factory setup by Gibson and Fender is to sell guitars, they want them to sound good and feel good and that is why they furnish the specs so if they are off, the player can go back to them as a starting point. So I guess because my guitars are not set up like you set yours up then I am not sensible (LOL)....of course I don't have dead strings after playing my guitars for months at a time and have rarely in the past 25 years even broken a string with my or should I say optimum setup per OEM. Guess you would call Mr Mel Bay not a sensible player also, he always made sure the guitars in his store were setup to OEM specs and his own that he played were too. Mr Mel Bay, May He rest in peace was a great legendary player and he is the one that originated guitar sheet music also and instruction books.

 

I don't go as far as calling others not sensible players or the know it all, all I merely provided was the specs for the guy to get a starting point, Guitars will always play when setup to the factory spec.....whether the action height suits a variable of players is another story and players styles are as different as there are different guitars. Not one size fits all.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"When a guitar player thinks his strings are low enough they are nearly always too low."

 

I said that. Say it all the time. Most guitar player problems vanish when they listen to me and "Lift yer strings a tad".

 

I don't like being right all the time, I just am.

 

rct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cap wonder why the specs you posted for the R9 Les Paul are different than what they emailed me a year ago. I had a 2007 Les Paul R9 and Gibson emailed me with the spec for it...I questioned the pickup height cuz bridge was almost buried in the housing. This is what they emailed me for the R9 and they id's the serial number and told me it was a 2007:

 

12th fret

Low E 5/64, High E 3/64 and put in parens (Standard Action)

 

Neck relief at 7th fret .012

 

Neck Pickup 3/32 both sides with 22nd fret pressed from top of polepiece to bottom of string

 

Bridge Pickup 4/64 both sides with 22nd fret pressed.

 

They also gave me the number of threads above the body for the stop bar but my puter crashed and lost the email. The guitar played excellent though. But I had always wanted a LP Custom so I traded it last March for new LP Custom.

 

My Fort Knox LP was set up to OEM spec out of the box also and plays perfectly for me and same OEM setup as others. Standard action is not low, it is medium.....I have played what I call low action LPs and SGs that were 3/64 and 1.5/64th without buzzing and hardly any neck relief that I could see with a naked eye....I just didn't like the feel of the frets wearing my finger tips sore. I can play all day with the OEM setup for Gibsons and Fenders without any hand fatique or cramping and I am 67.....I have played low action and high action and guitars with hardly any relief and too much relief and my hand starts hurting in 30 minutes. Too me if the setup and action don't feel good running the frets and barre chords up and down the neck with ease then the setup is not right for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ RockyA: The topic here is lack of sustain after changes in setup. I think it's common sense that sufficient action, appropriate for the playing style, will offer good sustain.

 

I did some experimenting on setups in the early 1980's as a beginner and later did that with some new guitars, too. Interestingly I found out that the results for reasonable playability depend very little on guitar models or string gauges.

 

Every setup depends on personal playing technique. Among my pals are two professional players rating the action on my guitars as a bit low, but they are virtuosos in a league of their own. On the other hand, Jeff Beck and his slapping fingerpicking technique call for low action. I think that I would have to deal with serious tone and sustain problems using his setup with heavy jazz picks. I think I would have the same problem with Robert Cray's setup though he uses it for reasons very different from Jeff Beck. He also can live with thin tone and lack of sustain as they are part of his personal "ice picking" sound with the strings jangling on the frets right after attack. Players who desire fat tone and good sustain need higher string action.

 

As I pointed out, the string deadening problem of my bandmate is sweat, not his playing technique. They go dead with high action, too. Compared to that my strings have eternal life so to speak.

 

As I wrote in the related post, the factory specs I posted for the 1959 Les Paul was issued in 1959 for real 1959 Les Paul guitars, not R9. In turn it's the same with the 1978 specs.

 

Again, there is no standard action applying to everybody. There also are reasons why driver's seats and rear-view mirrors of cars are adjustable. Same as with sitting positions, the personal requirements of guitar players didn't change on principal over the years, and thus standard setups are just fads. Car manufacturers don't publish numbers on how to adjust seats and mirrors with yardstick and angle meter... ;)

 

No offence intended, I just wanted to be helpful for Kul2enai in finding a way back to sustain. Anyway, it seems he is already following Pippy's advice what probably will solve the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok Cap,yeah back to what he said about his new guitar.

 

When the first time I get my 2016 studio T, the action is very easy to play and the sustain stay very long.

Now I've change the string to Elixir .010 - .046 and then i've setup the neck relief and action according to this guide "http://diystrat.blogspot.de/2012/09/how-to-set-up-gibson-les-paul-style.html" .

But the sustain is very short, and when i set the bridge higher the sustain is stay long but it's very hard to play (don't like the first time).

 

How can i have a good sustain and action that easy to play like when i get my studio the first time?

 

Common sense would dictate his guitar was new and he stated the action was very easy to play and the sustain was very good, see above his post. So the guitar being new and he just got it and he did not have it setup by anyone would have been more likely than not either at or close to original factor spec setup since it was brand new.

 

So, he liked it then and if he could not remember what it was he changed, then reason would dictate to take it back to the factory spec and "standard action" that Gibson determined was their "standard action" that Gibson themselves published to the whole world along with Gibsons "How to setup".

 

Other bandmates, and other players setups, deadened strings etc have nothing to do with the posters actual problem with his brand new guitar he had just gotten and changed the strings.

 

So restoring it back to original spec the way he had gotten it is basically common sense. Then he can go from there and tweak it if he so desires. We've beat this simple issue to death over a brand new more than likely Gibson setup guitar. You can have the last word on this Cap as I am done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally i've bring my Studio to Gibson agent shop near my hometown, and let them set mine to the factory setup.

And i've measure it ...

 

-neck relief at 7th fret = .012" (0.3 mm)

-action at 12th fret treble side = 4/64" (1.6 mm)

-action at 12th fret bass side = 6/64" (2.4 mm)

**note that all measurement is estimation

 

The sustain is come to good again.

Thanks everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally i've bring my Studio to Gibson agent shop near my hometown, and let them set mine to the factory setup.

And i've measure it ...

 

-neck relief at 7th fret = .012" (0.3 mm)

-action at 12th fret treble side = 4/64" (1.6 mm)

-action at 12th fret bass side = 6/64" (2.4 mm)

**note that all measurement is estimation

 

The sustain is come to good again.

Thanks everyone.

Good to hear, thank you for posting! [thumbup]

 

 

Wouldn't be the first time a set of strings were bad, But great news, Stings are cheap, I would have replaced them again before blaming setup.

Unless string height and neck relief were so low it was bottoming out the strings

Not that often, but from time to time some string turns out to be inferior right out of the package. In particular inconsistent diameter and such mass along a string, plain and wound as well, will make it sound dull and intonate poorly. It is easiest to detect after restringing with same brand and gauge with everything else unchanged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...