Rabs Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 So I don't know a hell of a lot about Jazz.. But I was actually searching for clips of Tal Wilkenfeld and came across this clip... To me that really does sound like a bunch of musicians all standing around playing random chords, scales and notes (even the beats are somewhat random sometimes)... While the odd bar is somewhat more comprehensible as music (to me) most of it just sounds bloody awful to me.... Its like all they know is what key the tune is in and where the changes are, the rest is just random nonsense?? Am I alone in thinking this??? Now this really is just for this type of Jazz.. I like some classic jazz like the really old stuff with great female singers like Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan and that sort of stuff and some of the great horn players.. But that music makes sense.. I can follow it and it comes to a resolution... Even some of what Jeff Beck does can be a tiny bit like this but his stuff at least always makes sense to me? The above track I posted just makes no sense to me at all (is it called fusion jazz or something?).. and playing it would seem even more pointless than listening to it? Wheres the fun? Now I ask this not so much to be negative about it.. There are obviously people that do like it.... I just wonder who listens to this stuff and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10K-DB Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Tried to watch,,YT says is not available in my country.{Thanks you tube,,we love ya} At any rate,,Ive seen this lineup out on the web,,its all over the place. I guess why to play this?: The challenge to be able to actually play it may give some type of personal satisfaction,and if the crowd enjoys + responds,,all the better I guess. Imagine playing live ,,some of Zappas music,,what a brain teaser that would be! And why one may not want to play?: It may not sell nearly as many "Units" off the shelves as 3-4 chord songs do. But with the 3-4 chord songs,,its much easier to "Tell a Story" of some type,using lyric+ hookline to pull folks into what your trying to do w/your music. Me? I enjoy a bit of both sides of the coin,,some of the tunes I write are a blend of both genres/styles,,sometimes it works,,sometimes not. When I listen to Eric Johnson,,he nails the melody+ almost commercial side of jazz,,but not too far out there,,where it sounds too "Busy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I like it. Though in the example you posted, most of the the other players let down Herbie IMO. I only truly liked his playing in there. Its just another kind of music, albeit a complex one. And because its complex you have to listen more attentively to get anything out of it. Some jazz is a lot more crazy than that example. Cecil Taylor for instance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Yes it's fusion from his great fusion period of the 70s. Makes perfect sense to me, but then I've been listening to him since an LP called "Crossings" absolutely blew my head off along with Weather Report's 2nd LP "I Sing The Body Electric" in 1972. This tune originally comes from an album called "Thrust", which came after "Headhunters" and before he went even funkier. The original is much funkier than this and does not feature a guitarist. Hancock is a great jazz composer and pianist and this well-known piece is a good example of his (ahem) pre-disco funk/fusion style. At this time he got funkier and more disco-fied with every new release. The album after this, "Man-Child" features a tune called "Hang Up Your Hang-ups" which has covered and been used in a TV advert. The famous guitar intro is by Melvin Wah-Wah Watson. On the cut you posted, the drummer is Vinnie Colaiuta who played with Zappa, Satriani, Joni Mitchell (and even on a Megadeth album) and was also with Wilkenfeld in the Beck band. I think it's a very good version if a bit freer than the original, and I'm not so keen on the guitarists autowah. They are all brilliant musicians, however I concede this is music with more solos than tune. I'm also amazed to see that he now has another keyboard player on stage with him but it makes sense if you consider how many keyboard parts he writes. The last HH album I bought was "Future To Future" in 2001. For the ultimate in ridiculous fusion, you should hear "Romantic Warrior" by Chick Corea and Return To Forever. That one is notorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 Now that I like and understand... I love a bit of funk and even some disco.... It reminded me instantly of the James Taylor Quartet .. Which I also like... But I can follow that music and enjoy it.. The music builds and resolves in ways I can understand.. But the clip I posted.. Nope, not at all.. well maybe small parts of it made sense, but as a track.. not at all... And in no way would I ever question the talent involved.... that is NOT in question.. I guess maybe like all music you have to hear loads of examples to find out what is good and what is not.. I just cant take it though lol.. I couldn't even listen to that whole video :) Ohh well, I am obviously not smart enough to understand it ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I guess maybe like all music you have to hear loads of examples to find out what is good and what is not.. I just cant take it though lol.. I couldn't even listen to that whole video :) Ohh well, I am obviously not smart enough to understand it ;) No you'd have to listen to a lot of Herbie to get used to the style. Also it comes from the brief period when fusion was king and the big record companies were behind it. That changed fairly quickly when the music didn't sell enough; fusion tried to go commercial to survive, was partly absorbed by disco, and then the 80s and computer-generated music came along. Here's the original, which is famous for the funky drumming of Mike Clark who keeps the whole thing going. You probably still won't like it but it might make more sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 Here's the original, which is famous for the funky drumming of Mike Clark who keeps the whole thing going. You probably still won't like it but it might make more sense! Hmm maybe slightly... I find that when I concentrate just on the piano I can sort of hear it more... But then when I try and listen to it as a whole with all the players, its just nonsense to me.... So its like im following it a bit then the bass comes forward with a riff I kind of like that riff and I loose the whole thing... It really is like trying to listen to more than one song at the same time for me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 It really is like trying to listen to more than one song at the same time for me.. And that's why ultimately it wasn't successful. It is part of the history of jazz though; the goal was to marry the complexity of bebop melodies and solos with the power and directness of progressive rock - and then funk - via electronic instruments. It could be done, but at the expense of a hummable melody that would sell records and get lots of radio play. Arguably Yes reached a similar place but coming from a different direction (IMO). And the fastest loudest band in the genre (and perhaps the world) ever was the 1st line-up of John Mclaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra; some people would say it was also the most pretentious. Seeing them on the BBC changed Mark King's life. Here's some of that programme - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I'd just like to add that what did for this type of music in the end was PUNK. British punk from 1976-1979. After that everything changed. I loved my fusion and so totally hated punk but it HAD to happen, as musicians were being revered as gods and the big record companies controlled everything. Rock stars like Greg Lake and Steve Howe insisted on antique carpets to play on; the late Kevin Ayers had to have a plate of fresh oysters and specific bottles of wine. We all know the 70s tales of rock-star excess. Cocaine came in and it just got completely silly until the late 1980s when those who wanted to survive and have some sort of career started to clean up. I must point out that Herbie Hancock has been almost entirely 'clean' and incredibly focussed throughout his career. The details are in his autobiography "Possibilites". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Mac Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Hey, Rabs! Saw this thread and had to chime in. First, I also am unable to view the video in your original post... Tal is a great bassist! Anyway, I am listening to all the other posted vids and I must say that I love this type of music! I am attracted to the virtuosity of the musicians and the freedom that's involved. This music requires a great deal from the listener because it is more conversational than other types of music. By that I mean that the musicians are listening to each other very intently and are responding to what is being played as much as to what is written. When playing jazz, one not only follows the form of the song but, is expected to improvise based on the original statement(s). This means that all aspects of the music are open to change according to the whims of the players involved. So really, it is often literally listening to more than one song at once. Players will quote melodies and chord changes from other tunes as well as inserting their own ideas. Also, there is the idea of deliberately not playing standard chord progressions in order to force one's playing into new directions. It can be very confusing! I'll admit that I love a good melody and that guys like Cecil Taylor, Sonny Sharrock and others in that vein get on my nerves... a bit too formless, I think! I also find some modern classical music to be almost, if not entirely, unlistenable(see Schoenberg's chromatic operas!). Sorry, I think I'm beginning to sound a mite pedantic here! I'll finish by saying that guys/bands like Miles Davis, Al DiMeola, Weather Report, U.K., Return to Forever, Bill Bruford, Allan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin and many others(too many to mention) might be good places to start as they are often riding the line between form and formless. I hope this is more helpful than harmful and, thanks for your patience during my spout-fest! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 I hope this is more helpful than harmful and, thanks for your patience during my spout-fest! Cheers! Yes.. as I said I didn't start this to be negative but maybe to learn something and understand it a bit more as its always baffled me a bit :) I just don't think its for me really.. To much going on and it hurts my head trying to keep up with it all.. That's not why I listen to music... There are even parts of that tune I posted where it actually sounds just like someone bashing the piano keys who doesn't even know how to play lol (even though I am fully aware that's not the case) Try this link instead then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glp2012 Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 It really is like trying to listen to more than one song at the same time for me.. I played bass for a guy where almost all of his music sounded like this...more than one song at the same time. Everything was random guitar riffs here and there, wacky drum beats and psychedelic keyboards. I was supposed to tie this together with some type of bass line. I didn't get it. I just figured I was stupid because everybody else seemed "in tune" with what he was doing. Maybe they were thinking the same thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Maybe they were thinking the same thing... Either that or no one wanted to admit they had no idea what was going on so they just say, yeah that's so cool and groovy man..... and everyone just gets on with it so they don't feel stupid... ;) As I say, for me also, that doesn't seem like much fun.. Id rather play with people in some sort of organised fashion where we are all playing the same song and I can understand the melody and direction.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I liked it. Me too - except for the abrupt fade-out I don't remember I had ever heard it before, but that composition is so great that I searched for some more versions on video. Here is one of them: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Am I alone in thinking this??? Not at all. Probably in the majority. Imagine playing live ,,some of Zappas music,,what a brain teaser that would be! Damn straight! I don't buy or have a lot of jazz. But I appreciate it because of Zappa. The clip Rabs posted was really good. I quite enjoyed it. The reason I listen to Zappa is because I enjoy music that challenges me. I listen to blues and get bored really fast. I think rct said something about blues a while back. Can't remember the quote, but I too get pretty bored on about the 13th bar. Most music is really predictable. I enjoy music that surprises me. What I like about Zappa, or jazz is how unpredictable it is. Zappa jazz is da bomb! Makes perfect sense to me, Me too. Or maybe the fact that it doesn't make sense is what appeals to me. When playing jazz, one not only follows the form of the song but, is expected to improvise based on the original statement(s). This right here is the epitome of jazz. And is pretty much what Tal lets loose on at about 7:06. I just don't think its for me really.. Then stop worrying about it. There is music I hate. Doesn't make it bad music. I just don't like it. Dude, you like 80's crap. I would never hold that against you. lol. I still respect your opinion and think you build a kick a$$ geet. Cheers man. I liked it. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Then stop worrying about it. There is music I hate. Doesn't make it bad music. I just don't like it. Dude, you like 80's crap. I would never hold that against you. lol. Haha.... LOL... yes I do.. But then im a teen of the 80s, its the music of my generation if we like it or not... Some of it is purely down to music that holds memories of growing up... But yeah.. I do like a good power ballad or two But then I also like ABBA, not much excuse for that ;) And really I posted this because I just wanted to hear what other people thought about it and genuinely wanted to know what people see in that mess :) (plus I like to keep an open mind on these things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 But then I also like ABBA, not much excuse for that ;) Admitting you have a problem is the first step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 And yes back to Zappa... I like some of his stuff but this is way too much for my small brain to handle how about this? (ive been looking stuff up)(I can take this a bit more than that vid I first posted) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CvETVF5-w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Mahavishnu Orchestra and Herbie Hancock in the same thread? = possibly the best thread ever When you say modern jazz though, it's moved on a lot since those 70's examples (which I love). I did an internship at Jazzwise magazine based in London back in 2009 and was amazed by a lot of the great artists out there now. Where to start? Try the following...and these are about 10 years old now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I loved that kind of stuff when it was popular in the seventies. I went to a bunch of weird John McGlaughlin concerts. :blink: Then I kind of moved on with other music and didn't give it lots of thought in retrospect. Now I'm more of a fan of the older Coltraine/Davis/Peterson type music and swing/blues stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Some jazz I really like. While I appreciate the technique and ability, but at some level, some of what goes with some of this stuff, it just isn't for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10K-DB Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 But then I also like ABBA, not much excuse for that ;) lol,,hey its all good {as I listen to my Partridge Family album C'mon get happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 The first modern jazz I got into was the Kieth Tippet Group - 'Dedicated to You but you Weren't listening'. (Kieth had worked with King Crimson who I was into at the time.) Its mostly freeform but this *track settles into a simple chord structure and ROCKS! skip the dense intro and begin at 2.30 for a fabulous soprano solo. Trust me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkKJQFBes6A * 'green and orange night park' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share Posted September 26, 2016 Its mostly freeform but this *track settles into a simple chord structure and ROCKS! skip the dense intro and begin at 2.30 for a fabulous soprano solo. Trust me. Yeah its not talent that I think is any issue with any of this.. That solo was cool, but in this case everything else that was going on was a bit too repetitive.... I know theres talent involved... I know to play that sort of music you have to be the most proficient in your chosen instrument, I can hear that. But I still find the freeform/fusion stuff pointless... I would be happier to hear that from each player solo without the rest of the band so I can actually hear what they are doing more clearly... And that's exactly my issue.. Its just too busy and leaves me with a mess.. If I try to concentrate on just one player I begin to enjoy it a bit more but then some other player steps forward with a riff catching my attention and it just becomes a mess again. I wonder if this has anything to do with the way my brain works.. I know im a bit dyslexic and I have trouble getting things in and out of my head in the right order sometimes. Maybe it just overloads me a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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