Crooked contractor

[ksdaddy]

My mother is having a new garage built. Part of the estimate was for the demo and removal of the old garage, a 12x20 with overhead door, built in the early 50s I think. I knew the puncheons it was sitting on had shifted and settle over the years and the garage was beginning to splay out but I knew it was far from the stage where it needed to be torn down. I chatted up some people, seeing if anyone was interested in taking on the job of pouring a concrete slab and moving the building 1-1/2 miles up the road to my place. I wanted it up in the back yard, near a small shed and barn. I basically wanted it to store the Corvette in the winter. A guy contacted me right away. I had hired him early this spring to do a little earthwork in preparation for me building a deck. He seemed like a good hard worker that was trying to get established. He looked the site and garage over and said $3500. When I didn't reply right away, he texted me a few hours later and said maybe $3000. I had already set a limit of $3000 in my own brain so it was a perfect fit. He made unrealistic timeline promises but I figured, "he's a contractor, his lips emit lies". The job was supposed to take less than a week but took about 3. Okay, no biggie. i think I was more concerned about the heart attack my mother was getting ready to have, seeing the old garage jacked up in her yard day after day. I was there when he placed the concrete. It was very stiff. And he did not bring a bull float. So it was rough. I wasn't happy about it but what to do? Another week or so and he finally got the building in place. He did not reinstall the garage door as promised, basically said he didn't know how. So I've hired a door guy to come install it (hasn't happened yet). I was frustrated with the roughness of the concrete so I rented a concrete grinder ($200/day) and smoothed it to my satisfaction. I then wired the garage and next year I may pull off the crappy 1993 vinyl siding and do something different.

 

After the concrete had been placed, my contractor said, "The driver needs a check for this load, are you going to pay it or am I?" I thought to myself, you a-hole, I contracted with you for ONE price, and it's up to YOU to cover the concrete bill.

 

End of story.

 

Not.

 

I got home today and there was a business card from the concrete company (trucking company actually) with "call me" written on the back. I called and he said, "I hate to involve you in this but we delivered a load to you a month ago and xxxx's check bounced and he won't return my calls. He only returned one text. I spoke to my lawyer and it looks like I'm going to have to put a lien on your property."

 

I immediately messaged the dirtbag though facebook and he apologized all over the place, some bull story about someone stiffing him for several thousand dollars, blah blah blah, and that he would take care of the concrete guy after the first of the month. I called the concrete guy back and read the paragraph to him and he said yep, that's the story HE got too.

 

So where I left it....look guys, this is a small town. We have to meet each other on the street. I've known the concrete guy since high school. I said, "out of courtesy, I would ask that you hold off with this lien BS as long as you can and see if he comes though. If not, then CALL me and we will work it out." The concrete bill is $550. If I have to, I will pay it and then I suppose I will have to go after Shady in small claims court. Which means I will get a judgement and likely never one dime.

 

Am I doing right? I do NOT want a lien on my property, especially when I did nothing wrong, but as far as I know, he's in the right to pursue it.

[rct]

Sucks, but it is how it is. Good luck with it.

 

rct

[Big Bill]

You are doing the right thing.

 

A good *** beating on the contractor might give a you little satisfaction...

[sparquelito]

I agree with the spirit of the earlier advice, but just to be clear, the threat of a 'lien against your property' is a hollow one.

 

You are not responsible for the ineptitude and malfeasance on the part of these other parties.

 

And if you choose to take it to court?

 

You will be the only one standing there, because these other asssholes will never show up.

And in the end, the judge will rule in your favor.

 

Crooked is as crooked does.

 

And you are in the right here.

:unsure:

[rct]

I agree with the spirit of the earlier advice, but just to be clear, the threat of a 'lien against your property' is a hollow one.

 

You are not responsible for the ineptitude and malfeasance on the part of these other parties.

 

And if you choose to take it to court?

 

You will be the only one standing there, because these other asssholes will never show up.

And in the end, the judge will rule in your favor.

 

Crooked is as crooked does.

 

And you are in the right here.

:unsure:

 

I certainly hope you don't charge for legal advice.

 

rct

[sparquelito]

I certainly hope you don't charge for legal advice.

rct

 

This is the internet, Rick.

 

My advice is free, same as it ever was.

Same as it ever was.

 

:)

[Digger]

As I see it, you had no contract with the concreter and therefore he is unable to take action against you.

[ksdaddy]

As I see it, you had no contract with the concreter and therefore he is unable to take action against you.

 

That's what common sense would tell you. But he can put some kind of 'mechanic's lien' on my property even with no direct deal between us. Depending on the state, it gets weirder...for example, in some states, if the construction or renovation has been completed and the primary contractor paid in full, the subcontractor cannot place a lien on the owner's property.

 

Laws are weird, I know.

 

The way I see it, I have no beef with Mr. Concrete and I will see to it he gets paid, and then go after Mr. FlyByNight. But not until I have to. And believe me, I have a huge mouth when I feel wronged and everyone and their grandmother's dog will know about his practices. I may never collect, but I will see to it he loses customers.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I know nothing about the law there but here, the fact that he wrote a cheque constitutes a contractual agreement that the debt exists. This alone would preclude responsibility on your part. Seems like you have some silly laws designed to protect contractors at the expense of innocent property owners.

[badbluesplayer]

Yeah - That's the way it works. Did you already pay the fly-by-night guy or can you just subtract the concrete bill from his check?

[ksdaddy]

All paid. The job was done. I figured it was a done deal. I didn't realize a subcontractor could come after me but that's the way the law is. Hard lesson learned.

[rct]

This is the internet, Rick.

 

Ron.

 

My advice is free, same as it ever was.

Same as it ever was.

:)

 

Good! In the future, be sure to mention that at settlement time, Mechanics Lien(s) can really wreck the persons day. It's one of the hardest to find out you have, and at settlement it can cause that person all kinds of monetary grief. It is also one of the hardest to remove from the title search, while being one of the easiest to file.

 

rct

[RevDavidLee]

I've had three contractors this year and two of them I had to file a complaint against with the State Attorney General's office Division of Consumer Protection to get satisfaction and the third one who's only default was not showing up when he said he would, twice, eventually showed up and did the work (installing gutters) for FREE. He apologized for the delay and refused to even accept payment for the materials. That's a great businessman and I have touted him all over social media since. THAT kind of guy deserves another chance and my endorsement. There ae good contractors out there but they seem to be growing harder and harder to find. When I find the honest ones I promote the hell out of them. When I trip across the dirt bags - I also make them well known and not in a good way.

 

Home Advisor, Angie's list, Thumbtack and others attempt to provide some balance however you have to know that many of those people have friends, relatives and business associates that will leave bogus reviews to pump themselves up - but eventually the general public will post their experiences all over the internet and bad business people will eventually be exposed for what they are. I am a forgiving person. Bad things happen to people beyond their control, illness, death, work accidents & injury and in those instances I am very understanding. But if you BS me and or outright lie to me - I'm coming after you with every legal avenue available to me. I wish you well ksdaddy. You're a good man and don't deserve this crap.

 

Life is short - let's party!

[badbluesplayer]

All paid. The job was done. I figured it was a done deal. I didn't realize a subcontractor could come after me but that's the way the law is. Hard lesson learned.

 

Maybe you can settle with the concrete guy. It's got to be worth something for him to avoid the trouble involved with the lien.

[kidblast]

This one sounds like another low-life looser like my EX Son In Law.

 

He'd take deposits, have people order the building material, but all he would do is cash the deposit check and never show up again. one lady got taken for over $3,600 for materials + his deposit ($2k)

 

She tried to take him to court, but the weasel was really good at disappearing when he needed to (he's not seen either of his daughters since 2006, nor paid a dollar in child support - scumbag. he ever shows up here, I don't think he's leaving with his head on his shoulders)

 

 

Sorry for your misfortunes KS, at least it's not LOT of money you're involved with.

[Big Bill]

This one sounds like another low-life looser like my EX Son In Law.

 

He'd take deposits, have people order the building material, but all he would do is cash the deposit check and never show up again. one lady got taken for over $3,600 for materials + his deposit ($2k)

 

She tried to take him to court, but the weasel was really good at disappearing when he needed to (he's not seen either of his daughters since 2006, nor paid a dollar in child support - scumbag. he ever shows up here, I don't think he's leaving with his head on his shoulders)

 

 

Sorry for your misfortunes KS, at least it's not LOT of money you're involved with.

 

Another call for a good old fashion *** beating.

[sparquelito]

Ron.

 

I do most sincerely apologize.

I don't know where I got the impression that your name was Rick.

I'm very sorry for any implied disrespect, none was intended.

 

 

Good! In the future, be sure to mention that at settlement time, Mechanics Lien(s) can really wreck the persons day. It's one of the hardest to find out you have, and at settlement it can cause that person all kinds of monetary grief. It is also one of the hardest to remove from the title search, while being one of the easiest to file.

rct

 

I would normally agree, but in the State where ksdaddy resides, subcontractors providing work or services to residential owner-occupied properties must obtain consent signed by the property owner from the general contractor, prior to even sending a Notice Of Intent To Lien. If this consent is not obtained, any subcontractor without direct contract to the property owner will not have lien rights.

 

Since the general contractor is clearly at fault here, and isn't even responding to queries from the subcontractor (the concrete guy), and this appears to have been based upon a verbal agreement between ksdaddy and the prime contractor, I can hardly see where ksdaddy is in any danger of being hit with such a filing.

 

I'm not attorney, but I have slept with a few.

 

:unsure: :mellow:

[kidblast]

Another call for a good old fashion *** beating.

 

yep... some people just need to be pounded with a hammer,, he's one of them...

[rct]

I do most sincerely apologize.

I don't know where I got the impression that your name was Rick.

I'm very sorry for any implied disrespect, none was intended.

 

 

 

 

I would normally agree, but in the State where ksdaddy resides, subcontractors providing work or services to residential owner-occupied properties must obtain consent signed by the property owner from the general contractor, prior to even sending a Notice Of Intent To Lien. If this consent is not obtained, any subcontractor without direct contract to the property owner will not have lien rights.

 

Since the general contractor is clearly at fault here, and isn't even responding to queries from the subcontractor (the concrete guy), and this appears to have been based upon a verbal agreement between ksdaddy and the prime contractor, I can hardly see where ksdaddy is in any danger of being hit with such a filing.

 

I'm not attorney, but I have slept with a few.

 

:unsure: :mellow:

 

No offense taken with the name, it is just fine!

 

New Jersey isn't like that. Yer lawn guy will mechanix lien you if you late pay twice. Sucks.

 

rct

[sparquelito]

No offense taken with the name, it is just fine!

New Jersey isn't like that. Yer lawn guy will mechanix lien you if you late pay twice. Sucks.

rct

 

That's crazy, man.

 

I have always hypothesized that there is an epicenter of litigiousness, and that grid square is in the middle of Manhattan.

 

The further out you go from New York City, the lesser the number of lawyers, and therefore the less likely you are to be sued.

 

Except for California.

That is the one anomalous outlier in this entire hypothesis, and that screws up the curve for me.

 

Me, I avoid lawyers by and large.

Unless they are drunk and raising their t-shirts whenever my band is playing, and yelling, "Play some damn Skynyrd or I'm gonna sue you!!".

 

Then I pay them some notice.

But only for a moment.

[Mr. Gibson]

That is lower than a snake's a$$hole.

[Big Bill]

That's crazy, man.

 

I have always hypothesized that there is an epicenter of litigiousness, and that grid square is in the middle of Manhattan.

 

The further out you go from New York City, the lesser the number of lawyers, and therefore the less likely you are to be sued.

 

Except for California.

That is the one anomalous outlier in this entire hypothesis, and that screws up the curve for me.

 

Me, I avoid lawyers by and large.

Unless they are drunk and raising their t-shirts whenever my band is playing, and yelling, "Play some damn Skynyrd or I'm gonna sue you!!".

 

Then I pay them some notice.

But only for a moment.

 

New Jersey is the "sue me state". Never seen anything like it. I had a guy rear end me and try to sue me. The sad part is that it was was a such a slow speed that the was zero damage, not even a scuff. Some bottom feeder of a lawyer took his case. He started filing claims through his insurance claiming injury. The whole thing ended when I reported him to the state for insurance fraud. He all of a sudden disappeared of the face of the earth. Yes, a good old fashion *** beating was needed here, however I kept looking at my 9mm. That SOB put us through hell for months.

[flyingarmadillo]

That's what common sense would tell you. But he can put some kind of 'mechanic's lien' on my property even with no direct deal between us. Depending on the state, it gets weirder...for example, in some states, if the construction or renovation has been completed and the primary contractor paid in full, the subcontractor cannot place a lien on the owner's property.

 

Laws are weird, I know.

 

The way I see it, I have no beef with Mr. Concrete and I will see to it he gets paid, and then go after Mr. FlyByNight. But not until I have to. And believe me, I have a huge mouth when I feel wronged and everyone and their grandmother's dog will know about his practices. I may never collect, but I will see to it he loses customers.

 

I'm not sure about your state but in Texas unless you have a signed contract with the contractor, with signatures from both you and the contractor, the contractor is liable for all sub-contractors. If the contractor defaults, unless there's a signed contract, the sub can't put a lien on the property. We ran into this with a contractor here when we redid the bathroom. He stiffed the plumber and the plumber threatened a lien, but since we hadn't signed a contract for any of the work (all oral agreements) the plumber could only go after the contractor. If you didn't have a signed contract, you might tell the cement guy that and he may have to back off on the lien.

[Digger]

I did some night school a few years back, some of the subjects were law. I did very well with the law subjects and for a while entertained the thought of going all the way.

 

That would have been a horrible mistake....Grin~

[Dennis G]

A few things come to mind, since I spent most of my life as an "owners rep" and then building houses when I left Corporate America.

 

One, NEVER let a contractor get ahead of you and your money (i.e. progress payments only) Contractor's are infamous for financing their next job with the money from their current project.

Two, not sure about the laws in your state, but here (CA) if your supplier/subcontractor doesn't file a 20 day Preliminary Lien notice, he has basically given up his lien rights (although most courts will side with the sub/supplier).

Three, it is your responsibility to make sure that subs/suppliers have been paid (there are conditional progress payment releases as in "I have been paid for everything up to and including this billig" and UNconditional releases "I've been paid in full") - yeah all that paperwork actually means something.

Four, here it is against state law for a contractor to charge any more than a 10% down payment on a project. This means that he should not have charged you any more than 10% down, and even if there is only a "final billing" it should be accompanied by the appropriate lien releases. If your contractor doesn't have the resources to cover a job this small, well, that's a big red flag to me.

Five, your best recourse (other than word of mouth in a small town) is to file a complaint against him with the State contractor's licensing board (assuming he is licensed, if not...).

 

All that said, it's been a few years since I dealt with any of this, and state laws/requirements will vary. Good luck with whatever happens and yeah, I know in the scheme of things, this was a small job, but still, some basic precautions still apply. And shame on your contractor.