Les paul starting to show fret wear?

[ChrisF]

I've had this standard 2016 for about a month. Yesterday I noticed that bending around the 10h fret with the lower strings feel somehow "sandy", it's not smooth as it is in my other guitar. This is something new and it wasn't like this before.

 

I tried cleanning the strings and the frets but it still doesn't feel smooth. I'm wondering if this may have something to do with fret wear.

 

 

[RockyA]

Do you have a metal 6 inch ruler? Could be uneven frets, place a short straight edge on frets and see if they are all the same height. Stew Mac sells a fret rocker also and you can then see. Some frets could be taller on one side and lower on the other. These guitars are supposed to be pleked to prevent that, but I had three LP Customs that had uneven height frets of which I returned all three. The fourth one was perfect, I used a fret rocker to check them, however the three previous LP Customs were so bad it could be seen by the naked eye.

[charlie brown]

Is your fret-board "dry," as in not hydrated properly. If so, frets can (sometimes) raise a bit, individually. Try some Fret-board conditioner, or Lemon oil,

and see if that helps, at all. I did this, and it helped a LOT, on one of my Les Paul's. (It had been in the case too long, and the board dried out, a bit!)

I now rotate playing it a lot more often, so I notice things like that, before they get "serious."

 

Just a thought...

 

CB

[RockyA]

You know on second thought looking at your photos, your frets look pretty rough and not polished like my LPs and other Gibsons. My frets are very smooth and mirror like. They shouldn't have come from the factory like that. Contact Gibson and show them this photo. They should pay for a Fret polishing or you can have a guitar tech polish them for you and just pay for it yourself. Or if you know how to do it DIY.

[sparquelito]

You could use some fresh strings too.

 

Is there a chance that there is some corrosion and corruption coming off of those old factory strings, making things feel gritty?

 

Just saying......

[L5Larry]

...a Fret polishing...

 

This is all that looks to be in order from my perspective.

 

Cut a few pieces of masking tape 3-4", mask each side of the first fret to protect the fingerboard. Give the top of the fret a good polishing with 000 steel wool, leapfrog the masking tape as you go up the neck and repeat for each fret. As you get toward the neck pickup you may want to mask it off also to avoid the magnet attraction of the steel wool dust.

[american cheez]

Is your fret-board "dry," as in not hydrated properly. If so, frets can (sometimes) raise a bit, individually. Try some Fret-board conditioner, or Lemon oil,

and see if that helps, at all. I did this, and it helped a LOT, on one of my Les Paul's. (It had been in the case too long, and the board dried out, a bit!)

I now rotate playing it a lot more often, so I notice things like that, before they get "serious."

 

Just a thought...

 

CB

 

aside from the dry fretboard thing being a myth to sell snake oil to people who don't understand building things with wood, a raised fret should not be treated that way. even on top of that, a raised fret that is smooth will still feel smooth, just higher. the ONLY thing that changed when you oiled your fretboard was it looked slightly cleaner, and in your mind you felt better because you did something you thought was a real thing. fretboard oil is a myth. i can poke so many holes in why it doesn't do anything, it's the swiss cheez of guitar myths.

 

the frets on the o/p's guitar are supposed to be cryogenically hardened. the crunchy feeling is not from fret wear. the fret is not properly finished and needs a little polishing.

[charlie brown]

aside from the dry fretboard thing being a myth to sell snake oil to people who don't understand building things with wood, a raised fret should not be treated that way. even on top of that, a raised fret that is smooth will still feel smooth, just higher. the ONLY thing that changed when you oiled your fretboard was it looked slightly cleaner, and in your mind you felt better because you did something you thought was a real thing. fretboard oil is a myth. i can poke so many holes in why it doesn't do anything, it's the swiss cheez of guitar myths.

 

the frets on the o/p's guitar are supposed to be cryogenically hardened. the crunchy feeling is not from fret wear. the fret is not properly finished and needs a little polishing.

 

 

so, you're saying my own experience, over the years, is pure Bullocks? Interesting! Well, to each his/her own.

 

CB

[capmaster]

In case the guitar has stainless steel frets, you have the following options:

 

- Live with the sandy feel. It is caused by stress crack corrosion, inevitable when stainless steel is stressed with sweat present, more exactly chloride. Polishing is no cure. It will be back soon.

 

- If you don't want to live with the sandy feel, have the guitar refretted WITH NICKEL SILVER FRETS. This is the only cure.

 

- If you're still within the return period, return the guitar. Avoid buying guitars with stainless steel frets.

 

Furthermore, avoid stainless steel strings. They make the fret problem even worse.

 

The fretboard looks fine to me. In 36 years I never met a single guitar that was in need of oil there.

[RockyA]

I'm with Capmaster in returning the guitar. After all this is a 2016 LP Standard or T right? It's a new guitar and all the other 2016s LPs Frets are not rough like yours, as far as strings, yeah they have a little funk on them but doubt if that's the problem and if they are factory strings they are nickel plated. Contact Gibson customer service with the photos of the fretboard and they will direct you to the service center to fix that or replace your guitar. I would not wait at all , I would do it now. Just call Gibson customer service. Their number is at the Gibson.com website on contact us. Just click in the upper left of this forum on Gibson.com.

[american cheez]

so, you're saying my own experience, over the years, is pure Bullocks? Interesting! Well, to each his/her own.

 

CB

 

yes, that's EXACTLY what i'm saying. and i'm saying it because it is in no way supported by science, or logic, or the experience of hundreds of years worth of craftsmen who build things from wood, who restore antiques, and maintain museum pieces. or, we can just skip the whole wood/oil part of it, and you can tell us all how oil will repair a poorly finished or even a high fret.

 

i think sparqelito is right. new strings that aren't rusty will go a long way towards helping things.

 

 

 

don't feel bad charlie brown. you're not the only one passing out bad information. i don't know of a single les paul in the entire 2016 line up that came with stainless frets, and for sweat to cause problems with a stainless fret would take 20+ yrs, not a few months, unless there is something seriously wrong with someone, that would definitely require a doctor's care.

 

a new set of strings and a few more months of playing that neck will most likely be all the o/p needs to correct the problem. it's just a machine made of metal and wood and a little paint and plastic. there's no magic in it.

[capmaster]

... i don't know of a single les paul in the entire 2016 line up that came with stainless frets, and for sweat to cause problems with a stainless fret would take 20+ yrs, not a few months, unless there is something seriously wrong with someone, that would definitely require a doctor's care.

...

I don't know the fret material positively, but the frets shown in the pictures look suspicious. That's why I wrote "In case the guitar has stainless steel frets, ..."

 

I can assure you that sweat takes only minutes to cause stress crack corrosion making initially polished stainless steel under stress, hence the name, feel sandy. Chloride and stress have to be present the same time. Nobody needs a doctor for that - chloride is the main anion among the electrolytes contained in our sweat, and sodium the main kation.

 

During six years in the metalworking industry, mainly making stainless steel products for customers producing machines for food and pharmaceutical industry, and twenty years in the pharmaceutical industry I learned a lot about the stress crack corrosion topic. A friend of mine, seasoned swimming pool designer, also contributed to my knowledge about this widely underestimated problem.

 

Of course, stainless steel frets may work fine as long as the player meticulously avoids pushing or pulling the strings sidelong. No bendings and no vibrato mean no stress, no cracks, no corrosion.

[american cheez]

I don't know the fret material positively, but the frets shown in the pictures look suspicious. That's why I wrote "In case the guitar has stainless steel frets, ..."

 

I can assure you that sweat takes only minutes to cause stress crack corrosion making initially polished stainless steel under stress, hence the name, feel sandy. Chloride and stress have to be present the same time. Nobody needs a doctor for that - chloride is the main anion among the electrolytes contained in our sweat, and sodium the main kation.

 

During six years in the metalworking industry, mainly making stainless steel products for customers producing machines for food and pharmaceutical industry, and twenty years in the pharmaceutical industry I learned a lot about the stress crack corrosion topic. A friend of mine, seasoned swimming pool designer, also contributed to my knowledge about this widely underestimated problem.

 

Of course, stainless steel frets may work fine as long as the player meticulously avoids pushing or pulling the strings sidelong. No bendings and no vibrato mean no stress, no cracks, no corrosion.

 

i've been a metal worker for 30 years. i've been a guitar player for 35. frets are not under any kind of stress. they don't crack from sweat in mere minutes, that's in your head. the o/p clearly stated it was a 2016 LP. i don't know of any LP that came with stainless frets, ever. i've had many guitars with stainless frets how many have you had? i never even heard of one doing what you're talking about, and i don't think it's chemically possible under the conditions found on a electric guitar. in fact s.s. frets are ALWAYS chosen because they last nearly forever. i don't know why people cant look at a picture without imagining wildly inaccurate scenarios, but then again, there's alot of funny nonsensical beliefs about guitars. mostly they proliferate on internet forums. post pics if there are any, of frets that cracked in minutes due to stress. i'll accept any fret material out there - stainless, nickle, whatever you can come up with. i know how many you'll post. zero. just like no one can produce before and after ppics a dry cracked neck pic that was repaired by adding snake oil. don't take it personal, you're just wrong, and passing out bad information. if i didn't correct you, people might believe what you are telling them, and then continue to spread bad info. that helps no one

[SteveFord]

You might find this article helpful:

 

http://www.gibson.com/Support/Tech-Tips/Smooth-Frettin.aspx

[ChrisF]

Thank you for all your replies guys, I don't want to return the guitar because I like it how it plays and sounds, so unless this is something that you highly recommend because it can cause problems in the future, I'm keeping it.

 

I'm going to replace the strins and give it some time to see if it gets smooth.

[charlie brown]

yes, that's EXACTLY what i'm saying. and i'm saying it because it is in no way supported by science, or logic, or the experience of hundreds of years worth of craftsmen who build things from wood, who restore antiques, and maintain museum pieces. or, we can just skip the whole wood/oil part of it, and you can tell us all how oil will repair a poorly finished or even a high fret.

 

i think sparqelito is right. new strings that aren't rusty will go a long way towards helping things.

 

 

 

don't feel bad charlie brown. you're not the only one passing out bad information. i don't know of a single les paul in the entire 2016 line up that came with stainless frets, and for sweat to cause problems with a stainless fret would take 20+ yrs, not a few months, unless there is something seriously wrong with someone, that would definitely require a doctor's care.

 

a new set of strings and a few more months of playing that neck will most likely be all the o/p needs to correct the problem. it's just a machine made of metal and wood and a little paint and plastic. there's no magic in it.

 

Hey, I got no problem being WRONG! LOL I was only stating MY experiences, and what (seemed to, anyway) work for ME!

I've had several experiences with loose frets (some raised), shrunken fingerboard wood, due to poor hydration.

As soon as the boards were re-hydrated, with Lemon oil, or some such, things went back to "normal." But, I am NO Luthier,

nor do I pretend to be, or even a wood worker, so I'll admit to that, and bow out from any further mis-information sharing,

as best I can, or at least that I know of ahead of time.

 

I tend to learn a lot more, watching, listening, reading, and NOT talking, anyway. Always have!

 

Cheers, and carry on!

 

CB

[capmaster]

i've been a metal worker for 30 years. i've been a guitar player for 35. frets are not under any kind of stress. they don't crack from sweat in mere minutes, that's in your head. the o/p clearly stated it was a 2016 LP. i don't know of any LP that came with stainless frets, ever. i've had many guitars with stainless frets how many have you had? i never even heard of one doing what you're talking about, and i don't think it's chemically possible under the conditions found on a electric guitar. in fact s.s. frets are ALWAYS chosen because they last nearly forever. i don't know why people cant look at a picture without imagining wildly inaccurate scenarios, but then again, there's alot of funny nonsensical beliefs about guitars. mostly they proliferate on internet forums. post pics if there are any, of frets that cracked in minutes due to stress. i'll accept any fret material out there - stainless, nickle, whatever you can come up with. i know how many you'll post. zero. just like no one can produce before and after ppics a dry cracked neck pic that was repaired by adding snake oil. don't take it personal, you're just wrong, and passing out bad information. if i didn't correct you, people might believe what you are telling them, and then continue to spread bad info. that helps no one

Gibson once advertised cryogenically treated frets. This makes sense for stainless steel, definitely not for nickel silver. My thought was they did it to a material where it made any sense at all. I could be wrong though...

 

I think you know that tiny cracks of microscopic dimensions feel sandy but basically look worn and dull only to the naked eye like the frets pictured and posted by the OP. Pictured under an electron microscope you could clearly see the cracks, but I think you know that. I don't have such problems with my guitars since they all predate Gibson's cryogenically treated fret fad.

[jdgm]

Excellent thread.

Exactly what I come here for.

Thanks very much to all.

[american cheez]

i have them, and i don't have any issues with cracking on my guitar.

[Roach]

im not sure what type of fret material came with my 2015 LP Sudio, but they are already wearing from string bending. Its a hard habit to break.

Also the frets have always poked sharply out of the side a bit and hurt some when i change left hand position up and down the neck.

[Rich Goodchild]

I've had this standard 2016 for about a month. Yesterday I noticed that bending around the 10h fret with the lower strings feel somehow "sandy", it's not smooth as it is in my other guitar. This is something new and it wasn't like this before.

 

I tried cleanning the strings and the frets but it still doesn't feel smooth. I'm wondering if this may have something to do with fret wear.

 

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

You're not the only one seeing this: I bought 2 Les Pauls from the Gibson USA 2016 range at the end of May / beginning of June 2016 - a 50s Tribute model and a Faded Studio model - and both of these started off like yours, with a "sandy" feel on the frets soon after purchase. 6 months on and I find that both guitars (but much more noticeably the Tribute, which I play more often) are showing what I regard as a worrying amount of fret-wear for 6-month-old guitars. Let me just say here that I play maybe 3 hours a week max due to other time constraints and also alternate which guitar I use, so basically nothing compared to a pro player.

 

I was concerned enough about this to go back to the supplier (Andertons Music Co.) and also to Gibson customer service. I am currently a long round-trip to the shop down in this process with their tech saying yes, it was fret-wear and looked like at least a year's wear if not more, but with the shop refusing to do anything without Gibson's authorisation and Gibson telling me and them that it is within "normal tolerances". Now, I get that fret-wear is part and parcel of owning a guitar and that it varies from player to player. However, my previous guitars are a Patrick Eggle Berlin (owned for 15 years with NO visible fret-wear when I sold it on) and a PRS SE that I got for £380 nearly 10 years ago and have played regularly since (more regularly than the LPs as it was the only guitar I used), that is only now starting to show significant wear but is still playable. Extrapolating the wear on the LPs, I can't see the same being true in even 5 years with those. I have used the same strings exclusively for as long as I have been playing and those are D'Addario 10s, which the tech said was a pretty standard string out there.

 

I (and interestingly the guitar tech too) believe that the fret-wire in use by Gibson may have been changed or is now manufactured by a different supplier but Gibson won't confirm or deny this either. I suspect it is also bad news for the 2017 models as whilst at the shop again, I picked up one of the £1500+ 2017 Les Paul models out of interest and was actually able to mark a fret by pushing the D string down on it with a thumb. That to me seems way too soft.

 

I'm now just disappointed that neither Andertons nor Gibson will stand by the product and their comments about it being normal wear and commit to a re-fret if the guitars become unplayable in a given time-frame or admit there is an issue. I am now left in limbo with this as I hardly dare play the guitars now and Gibson are basically turning their back on a customer. I'm now resigned to having to save up £500 for a re-fret for both guitars in about 3 years' time.

 

I would be very interested to hear how many folks on this forum have re-fretted a Les Paul, how many years' life they usually get from the frets before they are too low and need replacing (if they have done so at all) and how that compares with their playing frequency, because what I'm being told by Gibson just does not add up.

 

Cheers,

 

Rich

[rct]

Hi Chris,

 

You're not the only one seeing this: I bought 2 Les Pauls from the Gibson USA 2016 range at the end of May / beginning of June 2016 - a 50s Tribute model and a Faded Studio model - and both of these started off like yours, with a "sandy" feel on the frets soon after purchase. 6 months on and I find that both guitars (but much more noticeably the Tribute, which I play more often) are showing what I regard as a worrying amount of fret-wear for 6-month-old guitars. Let me just say here that I play maybe 3 hours a week max due to other time constraints and also alternate which guitar I use, so basically nothing compared to a pro player.

 

I was concerned enough about this to go back to the supplier (Andertons Music Co.) and also to Gibson customer service. I am currently a long round-trip to the shop down in this process with their tech saying yes, it was fret-wear and looked like at least a year's wear if not more, but with the shop refusing to do anything without Gibson's authorisation and Gibson telling me and them that it is within "normal tolerances". Now, I get that fret-wear is part and parcel of owning a guitar and that it varies from player to player. However, my previous guitars are a Patrick Eggle Berlin (owned for 15 years with NO visible fret-wear when I sold it on) and a PRS SE that I got for £380 nearly 10 years ago and have played regularly since (more regularly than the LPs as it was the only guitar I used), that is only now starting to show significant wear but is still playable. Extrapolating the wear on the LPs, I can't see the same being true in even 5 years with those. I have used the same strings exclusively for as long as I have been playing and those are D'Addario 10s, which the tech said was a pretty standard string out there.

 

I (and interestingly the guitar tech too) believe that the fret-wire in use by Gibson may have been changed or is now manufactured by a different supplier but Gibson won't confirm or deny this either. I suspect it is also bad news for the 2017 models as whilst at the shop again, I picked up one of the £1500+ 2017 Les Paul models out of interest and was actually able to mark a fret by pushing the D string down on it with a thumb. That to me seems way too soft.

 

I'm now just disappointed that neither Andertons nor Gibson will stand by the product and their comments about it being normal wear and commit to a re-fret if the guitars become unplayable in a given time-frame or admit there is an issue. I am now left in limbo with this as I hardly dare play the guitars now and Gibson are basically turning their back on a customer. I'm now resigned to having to save up £500 for a re-fret for both guitars in about 3 years' time.

 

I would be very interested to hear how many folks on this forum have re-fretted a Les Paul, how many years' life they usually get from the frets before they are too low and need replacing (if they have done so at all) and how that compares with their playing frequency, because what I'm being told by Gibson just does not add up.

 

Cheers,

 

Rich

 

Sell them and don't buy another Gibson. It's the only way they'll ever know. If any of my guitars by any maker did that I would not invest in changing crappy frets, I would rid myself of their guitars and not look back. I do have guitars in various states of fret dress/replacement, but they are gigged good, rode hard and put up wet at times. A three hour a week at home guitar player should never even have to say re-fret.

 

rct

[Rich Goodchild]

Sell them and don't buy another Gibson. It's the only way they'll ever know. If any of my guitars by any maker did that I would not invest in changing crappy frets, I would rid myself of their guitars and not look back. I do have guitars in various states of fret dress/replacement, but they are gigged good, rode hard and put up wet at times. A three hour a week at home guitar player should never even have to say re-fret.

 

rct

 

 

Thanks rct, that pretty much backs up my expectations of a decent guitar of any price. Given that these sub-standard frets look to be all over the 2017 range too, I don't expect to be the last person saying this stuff: shame Gibson are sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LA LA LA LA!!!" rather than listening...

 

Rich.

[rct]

Thanks rct, that pretty much backs up my expectations of a decent guitar of any price. Given that these sub-standard frets look to be all over the 2017 range too, I don't expect to be the last person saying this stuff: shame Gibson are sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LA LA LA LA!!!" rather than listening...

 

Rich.

 

I don't think they actually do that, so I'm going to ask you two things.

 

What are you using to tell you about unreasonable fret wear? How are you gauging it? What is your experience with fret wear and all that?

 

How old are your strings? The sandy feeling is usually, I say usually now, old strings on a dirty neck.

 

rct

[Rich Goodchild]

I don't think they actually do that, so I'm going to ask you two things.

 

What are you using to tell you about unreasonable fret wear? How are you gauging it? What is your experience with fret wear and all that?

 

How old are your strings? The sandy feeling is usually, I say usually now, old strings on a dirty neck.

 

rct

 

It was a comparison between the LPs and the PRS SE I've had for 9 years, backed up by taking the guitars back to the supplier (who are a Gibson service centre) for them to assess them, as they have experience that I don't and that's why I wanted an independent opinion. I should just make it clear that there is nothing wrong playing-wise with the guitars, but I can see the recognisable wear-patterns beginning, similar to those on the PRS and at this stage given my frequency of playing, I don't believe I should be seeing this yet. I have also compared notes with a friend who has owned his Ibanez for a year now, plays for at least a couple of hours daily and is not seeing the wear I am and also has no experience of any guitar he's had starting to show noticeable wear that quickly. The guitar tech at the shop stated to Gibson that he would have estimated the wear as a year's worth based on average use, which is twice as long as I've had them and I think that 3 hours a week playing would be regarded as less-than-average use.

 

The sandy feeling wore off early on and I don't have that now - maybe it was the frets bedding in - and I hate grubby-feeling strings anyway, so change them as soon as they start to feel even slightly pitted or kinked and clean them down with oil after playing to slow corrosion. I probably don't change them that often but because I'm pretty anal about cleaning them and the fretboard after playing, they rarely get to the stage where they've started to dull or lose their smoothness before I swap them.

 

The guitar tech at the shop was pretty honest about the situation, saying that he could see the wear and understood where I was coming from, but that Gibson would not do anything at this stage because the guitar's playing was unaffected and in all honesty, I wouldn't really want open-heart surgery on a nearly-new guitar to replace frets anyway. What the shop have said though is that Gibson should be able to tell me the time-limit for any warranty claim on the frets wearing enough to affect playability and this is what Gibson won't do despite me asking at least twice. I would be very happy to have the same guitars in 10 years with the same frets and no playability issues and that may yet prove to be the case, but I have not been able to see fret-wear patterns around the higher frets and the beginnings of notches at the second fret on guitars previously this quickly. If the frets do continue to wear at their initial rate, it seems to me simple physics that they will be starting to buzz or otherwise affect the tone far sooner than seems to be common.

 

I would just like that safety-net from Gibson to say we expect x years from the frets on a Gibson guitar under normal use and if you're not getting that, we'll look at it as a warranty issue.