TM1 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Hi! I have a 2005 "`60's Historic Collection Hummingbird"(Custom Shop decal on the back of the peghead) that I love dearly. Suppose to be one out of 20 made that year).But I'm wondering on the new ones if Montana uses the "Historic" type trussrod or if they're still using that piece of crap sheathed rod with the plate at the end instead of the 1/2" round anchor/steel rod? Also is it possible to get one made using all Hide Glue construction and the vintage/historic type trussrod? I bought mine new at Music Villa in Bozeman on the recommendation of my friend Ren Ferguson in 2006. I know at that time the corperate powers in Nashville o.k.'d Ren's request to use Hot Hide Glue on a select few models. There just doesn't seem to be anyway to reach the folks in Bozeman these days as I don't see any phone #'s or email address like there use to be. I realize that Ren now works for Guild. I'll probably see some of them at NAMM this week but figured some of you should know. I also have a 1963 J-50 I bought at Music Villa in 2007. they had it marked as a 1973 even though Gibson didn't make any slope shoulder flatops after 1968 and the serial# is smack dab in the middle of `63 and had originally been one with the adjustable bridge(route was filled in and cut for a regular bone saddle before I got it. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvi Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 intersting description of truss rods,... no help otherwise, cant you call your friend ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 duplicate post. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I'm not sure what type of truss rod you are describing, and don't know the particulars of the current Gibson truss rod. However, it's hard to believed they have ever used a 1/2" diameter steel rod. By calculation, a 1/2" steel rod 18" long (similar to the average truss rod length) would weigh almost a pound (close to 450 gm), and would have a compressive strength of over 8,000 pounds. The typical J-45 weighs between 4 and 4 1/2 pounds, and has a string tension of 100-150 pounds. There's no way the truss rod makes up almost 25% of the guitar's all-up weight. The truss rods Stewmac sells are about 3/16" in diameter, and look very much like a Gibson truss rod. Somewhere in my files I have a copy of the original patent application for the Gibson truss rod arrangement, which dates back to the early part of the 20th Century. As I recall, it has all the dimensions there. If I can find it, I'll post it. Here's a link to the Stewmac Gibson replacement truss rod, which according to Stewmac, is what has been used since the 1960's: Gibson truss rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM1 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 I'm not sure what type of truss rod you are describing, and don't know the particulars of the current Gibson truss rod. However, it's hard to believed they have ever used a 1/2" diameter steel rod. By calculation, a 1/2" steel rod 18" long (similar to the average truss rod length) would weigh almost a pound (close to 450 gm), and would have a compressive strength of over 8,000 pounds. The typical J-45 weighs between 4 and 4 1/2 pounds, and has a string tension of 100-150 pounds. There's no way the truss rod makes up almost 25% of the guitar's all-up weight. The truss rods Stewmac sells are about 3/16" in diameter, and look very much like a Gibson truss rod. Somewhere in my files I have a copy of the original patent application for the Gibson truss rod arrangement, which dates back to the early part of the 20th Century. As I recall, it has all the dimensions there. If I can find it, I'll post it. Here's a link to the Stewmac Gibson replacement truss rod, which according to Stewmac, is what has been used since the 1960's: Gibson truss rod What I was referring to was the end piece that goes into the neck to secure the Trussrod at the neck/body end of the neck. At the peghead you have the adjustment nut that attaches to the threaded end of the rod and the rod use to be a 1/4" piece of of steel with a 3/8" x 1/2" round anchor block that secured the body end of the rod. This end too was threaded about 3/8" and then was peened/secured by hammering the end of the rod that sticks out about 1/8" on the back side of the anchor. After the rod is inserted into the channel in the neck it is covered with a maple "Fillet" strip so it stays in place in the neck after which it is covered by the fingerboard. Around 1968 Gibson changed the dimensions of the rod and covered the rod with a rubber sheath. They were having problems with Hide glue sticking to the rod rendering the rod inoperable as there was constant pressure to speed up production by the new management. So builds got a little sloppy in their quest to build them faster..The block end of the rod changed from the 3/8" steel rod to a flat piece of metal with a square hole. The rod was changed to a very long "carriage bolt" that's threaded on the tip. If you know what a carriage bolt is then you get what they were doing. The bolt was covered with the rubber sheath, or has been referred to as the "trussrod condom". The sheath deadens the the string vibrations that would normally have been transferred through the neck by the original rod. this is one big reason why the guitars didn't sound the same.. Around this time also the glue changed from Hide Glue to a white, vinyl based glue(Titebond or Elmer's Carpenters Glue). Hide Glue when it dries pulls the two pieces of wood together and also dries very hard and crystalizes. Vinyl based glues, while they dry, never harden like Hide Glue and is a kin to inserting a sheet of vinyl/plastic, etc between the two pieces of wood. This dampens the string vibration transfer. Gibson Custom Shop and Memphis divisions both now use Hide Glue for the neck joints and fingerboard to neck joint. the result is a considerably livelier sounding guitar like the ones from the `50's & `60's(until late `68). Gibson Custom in Nashville is now building the "True Historic" series that uses all Hide Glue for the whole build. They have used for the last 3 years what they call the "Historic Trussrod" that is made to the original specs but is coated with a micro-thin layer of Teflon so the glue will not stick to it. Anyway, what I wanted to know is if the Montana Division is using this "Historic" trussrod vs. the sheathed trussrod. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I can't really help with your fundamental question, but out of curiosity I pulled the truss rod covers off four Gibsons sitting in my office: a J-45 from 1948 (Kalamazoo, obviously all hide glue), a 2010 L-OO Legend (Bozeman, not marked Custom Shop but an all-hide-glue limited run guitar), another limited run 1943 SJ from Bozeman (not all hide glue, not marked Custom Shop), and a 1959 ES 335 Historic (from the Custom, Art, and Historic Shop in Nashville in 2010). On the "working" end of the rod, they are all exactly the same: a round steel truss rod approximately 3/16" in diameter (definitely less than 1/4") with a 1/8" thick half-moon steel washer, and a custom brass hex threaded-through dome nut that takes a 5/16" hex socket (I use a "stock" wrench modified for the purpose, but the working guts are the same size as a typical 5/16" purpose-built truss rod wrench. Can't say anything about the other end of the rod, or what's in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The only info I was told about was from the 90s... they changed to a different truss rod.. as for why , Im not sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM1 Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yeah, the threaded end at the nut/peghead looks the same on almost every decade. It's under the fingerboard that they're different. My friend who worked at Gibson Montana is Ren Ferguson who left Gibson in 2010. He now runs the shop down here for Guild and has designed a number of acoustics for them. they have afactory up in Oxnard(about 45 minutes north/west of me. Ren basically re-established Gibson Acoustics in 1989 and ran the Custom Shop in Bozeman. The place is a nice facility and the work-flow is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky1 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I think Ren has already left Guild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yeah, the threaded end at the nut/peghead looks the same on almost every decade. It's under the fingerboard that they're different. My friend who worked at Gibson Montana is Ren Ferguson who left Gibson in 2010. He now runs the shop down here for Guild and has designed a number of acoustics for them. they have afactory up in Oxnard(about 45 minutes north/west of me. Ren basically re-established Gibson Acoustics in 1989 and ran the Custom Shop in Bozeman. The place is a nice facility and the work-flow is perfect. Sorry but why not just contact Mr. Ren Ferguson himself? He sems like a nice lad! Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Sorry but why not just contact Mr. Ren Ferguson himself? He sems like a nice lad! Peace! I'm assuming because since Ren stopped working there he won't know what truss rods they're using since ? Been hanging around this forum for years now and it's the first time anyone has pondered what truss rod assembly is used , but nothing surprises me anymore either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yeah, the threaded end at the nut/peghead looks the same on almost every decade. It's under the fingerboard that they're different. My friend who worked at Gibson Montana is Ren Ferguson who left Gibson in 2010. He now runs the shop down here for Guild and has designed a number of acoustics for them. they have afactory up in Oxnard(about 45 minutes north/west of me. Ren basically re-established Gibson Acoustics in 1989 and ran the Custom Shop in Bozeman. The place is a nice facility and the work-flow is perfect. Ren has a lot of friends on this board, including people who have known him for decades. Even though he left Gibson several years ago, he is still in contact with people there, and might be able to answer your question, or direct you to the person to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I'm assuming because since Ren stopped working there he won't know what truss rods they're using since ? Been hanging around this forum for years now and it's the first time anyone has pondered what truss rod assembly is used , but nothing surprises me anymore either I think we also need to know if the steel is re-cylced. I've been fixing to contact Nashville to find out if the True Authentic Vintage truss rod covers are now using natural or synthetic plastics. Switching from petrochemicals to renewable cellulose will greatly benefit the reversal of Global Warming - especially if Gibson sets the example for all makers - including those in China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I think we also need to know if the steel is re-cylced. I've been fixing to contact Nashville to find out if the True Authentic Vintage truss rod covers are now using natural or synthetic plastics. Switching from petrochemicals to renewable cellulose will greatly benefit the reversal of Global Warming - especially if Gibson sets the example for all makers - including those in China. Sad and sorry to say here but " Not In Our Lifetime " Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 That was a feeble attempt at sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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