Adirondack Spruce versus Red Spruce

[mking]

I have a Martin guitar and three Gibson guitars all with a Sitka spruce top. There a lot of talk about Adirondack Red Spruce and how it is the gold standard for tops (seems to be the rage). I just purchased a 2015 Gibson L-00 Red Spruce Limited guitar. I've seen a few sites on line that state, Adirondack is Red Spruce, but not all Red Spruce is Adirondack. So now I am wondering if this L-00 "Red Spruce" guitar has an "Adirondack" top. Thoughts from the group?

 

I think a phone call to Gibson in Montana is warranted.

[BigKahune]

,

Nah.

 

Semantics.

 

Picea rubens aka red spruce, Adirondack spruce, yellow spruce, West Virginia spruce, eastern spruce, etc. It grows from the Canada (Quebec) down through the Adirondack mountains in New York/Vermont, continuing down through the Appalachians into Carolina.

 

I would assume some people are drawing a distinction around red spruce that is actually harvested in the Adirondack mountains. , B)

 

 

,

[j45nick]

Red spruce and Adirondack spruce are the same species--picea rubens--and grow as far north has Nova Scotia to as far south as the Adirondack mountains region of NY, over a broad range. There are also some areas in the higher elevations of the Appalachian mountains that have a climate that will support red spruce, so there are isolated populations much further south. It grows mixed in with other firs, spruces, and pines, so it's not like Sitka, which grows in large forests and to huge size. By contrast, picea rubens is a pygmy about half the diameter and half the height of the Sitka spruce.

 

There's a lot more Sitka spruce than red spruce on the planet, and a lot more lumber in a Sitka.

 

Technically, I suppose Adirondack red spruce would be red spruce from the Adirondack region, and the rest of it would just be called red spruce. Gibson is probably right to call it red spruce. I don't know where their red spruce comes from.

[BluesKing777]

Have a look through this wonderful thread form UMGF:

 

 

 

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/170694/Red-Spruce-cutting-2015#.WIlx0lN97X4

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[blindboygrunt]

😐

[j45nick]

Have a look through this wonderful thread form UMGF:

 

 

 

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/170694/Red-Spruce-cutting-2015#.WIlx0lN97X4

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Seriously cool thread, despite the guy chainsawing wood while barefoot. Makes you really appreciate where our little wooden boxes with strings come from.

[EuroAussie]

When it comes to the type of spruce top I reckon its all completely irrelevant. Id be willing to bet that nobody here in a blind test would be able to tell which is sitka and which has an adi spruce top. Its one of those cork sniffing exercises.

[Victory Pete]

When it comes to the type of spruce top I reckon its all completely irrelevant. Id be willing to bet that nobody here in a blind test would be able to tell which is sitka and which has an adi spruce top. Its one of those cork sniffing exercises.

 

I just got a new 1938 SJ-200 with Adirondack top with hide glue. 4 months ago I got a new Western Classic (1937 SJ-200) with a Sitka top. The difference between the two is astounding. The Sitka guitar is very bassy with limited treble. The Adirondack is very trebly with a more even response with plenty of piano like volume, the bass is not overpowering. They are both fairly loud, especially when strummed hard. I think Adirondack is the loudest. I imagine because the Adirondack is stiffer it has less bass response. I am interested to see how they both age. It is hard to say which one I prefer, but the Adirondack has most of my attention right now.

[tpbiii]

I have talked to John Arnold quite a lot about spruce. The reason is that our old family home in Nova Scotia -- about 100 acres -- is forested with lots of spruce and hardwood.

 

The climate that supports red spruce can be found from the southern mountains to maritime Canada -- but the altitude at which it grows is different. 4000 feet in West Virginia but sea level in Nova Scotia. Also a lot of wood was taken out of Nova Scotia up until 150-175 years ago, so the oldest of our trees are probably that old. A tree must be about 22 inches in diameter to support quartered dread sized tops. We have several that large.

 

The problem is that the quality of the red spruce at sea level -- think Nova Scotia and Maine -- is on average less good than the 4000 foot high trees. It is not that mountain spruce is good and sea level spruce is bad -- you get good and bad tops from both places -- but on average the yield is better from the mountains. My neighbor in Nova Scotia -- Russel Crosby -- is a local guitar builder of note, and we may yet harvest one of our old trees. But the quality issue -- and the work too I guess -- gives me pause. Still having guitars made from our own trees would be cool.

 

Red spruce is actually quite similar to a lot of other spruces -- European, Engelmann, ... -- most of the fine distinctions between those in terms of stiffness, required thickness and vibrational properties are very minor. Most of the good mountain red spruce is gone, and that on National Forest land can only be harvested from dead falls. So most of the current hullabaloo is just marketing -- buyer beware.

 

The other major spruce species for guitar tops is Sitka -- from the forests of the NW. Much of that is now going to China to build houses. It is quite different in terms of stiffness and required thickness.

 

On our land, there are three kinds of spruce -- red, black, and white. Black does not grow large enough for guitar tops, but it is preferred by local builders for fiddles -- lot of those in Nova Scotia. White is the largest, but NS is the southern end of its range. But here is the rub -- they hybridize. So there are a lot of cross breeds on our land.

 

The white spruce story is a mystery to me. There are huge white spruce forests in north eastern and central Canada. That does get used for piano sound boards. Also the legendary Larson Brothers bragged about using it in the 1920s. So why is it ignored for guitar tops -- there may be a good reason, but I don't know what it is.

 

It is not sound. Listen to this Larson.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0NGyYQAuGw

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[tpbiii]

I guess I have one experience worth relating. Only occasionally do you get a situation where an A-B test is controlled enough to have some validity. But that did happen about a dozen years ago. I had a 1967 BRW Martin dread with a smashed top and so did a close friend. Both guitars got new tops -- forward braced like the 30s models -- but mine was Sitka and his was red spruce.

 

Mine has been my go to summer bluegrass guitar for more than a decade. It came out of the box sounding good -- loud and full -- and it has evolved slowly since. Sort of like a really good HD-28, but with the added push from that old BRW. The red spruce version was very different -- loud and projective for sure, but with what I would call a brittle tone. He played it for awhile, but could not bond with that tone.

 

Jump forward five years. I got to play the red spruce guitar again in a long session. What a difference! The quality of its tone had improved tremendously -- no longer brittle, a bit bright, and really audible in the jam. I had heard before that red spruce took longer to come out -- well that was certainly so in this case. As new topped guitars, I vastly preferred the Sitka -- now they are both good, but for bluegrass cut the red spruce wins.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[Victory Pete]

I guess I have one experience worth relating. Only occasionally do you get a situation where an A-B test is controlled enough to have some validity. But that did happen about a dozen years ago. I had a 1967 BRW Martin dread with a smashed top and so did a close friend. Both guitars got new tops -- forward braced like the 30s models -- but mine was Sitka and his was red spruce.

 

Mine has been my go to summer bluegrass guitar for more than a decade. It came out of the box sounding good -- loud and full -- and it has evolved slowly since. Sort of like a really good HD-28, but with the added push from that old BRW. The red spruce version was very different -- loud and projective for sure, but with what I would call a brittle tone. He played it for awhile, but could not bond with that tone.

 

Jump forward five years. I got to play the red spruce guitar again in a long session. What a difference! The quality of its tone had improved tremendously -- no longer brittle, a bit bright, and really audible in the jam. I had heard before that red spruce took longer to come out -- well that was certainly so in this case. As new topped guitars, I vastly preferred the Sitka -- now they are both good, but for bluegrass cut the red spruce wins.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

 

 

Yes, I have read that the Adirondack matures slowly. I have noticed already the Sitka in the Western Classic has opened up a bit. I look forward to the Adirondack in the 1938 SJ-200 to improve as well.

 

 

 

 

[BluesKing777]

Seriously cool thread, despite the guy chainsawing wood while barefoot. Makes you really appreciate where our little wooden boxes with strings come from.

 

 

The bare feet are alarming but that saw will probably go through the shoes just as quick!

 

 

The tops eventually go in a handful of custom builds, so most guitars don't get this much work to get a top. Probably clear felled still if it is Sitka? Don't know that, correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

An interesting novel to read is Annie Proulx's "Barkskins"......

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25111119-barkskins

 

 

 

I have guitars with Sitka and Adi tops, but they are fairly different builds so couldn't tell you a direct comparison. 3 Martin OMs and a 000 - 2 with Adi, 2 with Sitka. Being a bareback fingerpicker, I probably should head for Redwood or Cedar, or vintage guitars ha ha ha - the Adi tops needed serious work to help get them to open up (Tonerite and hard playing with fingerpicks). The Sitka OM and 000 didn't need anything, and one heavier build Adi OM still sounds new no matter what I do..... so obviously Adi is better for heavy strummers usually.

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Victory Pete]

The bare feet are alarming but that saw will probably go through the shoes just as quick!

 

 

The tops eventually go in a handful of custom builds, so most guitars don't get this much work to get a top. Probably clear felled still if it is Sitka? Don't know that, correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

An interesting novel to read is Annie Proulx's "Barkskins"......

http://www.goodreads...11119-barkskins

 

 

 

I have guitars with Sitka and Adi tops, but they are fairly different builds so couldn't tell you a direct comparison. 3 Martin OMs and a 000 - 2 with Adi, 2 with Sitka. Being a bareback fingerpicker, I probably should head for Redwood or Cedar, or vintage guitars ha ha ha - the Adi tops needed serious work to help get them to open up (Tonerite and hard playing with fingerpicks). The Sitka OM and 000 didn't need anything, and one heavier build Adi OM still sounds new no matter what I do..... so obviously Adi is better for heavy strummers usually.

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

I have a Cordoba Classical with a Western Red Cedar top, not really being a traditional Classical player or fingerpicker the notes really jump out at me. Very quick attack and lively sound.

[drathbun]

I just got a new 1938 SJ-200 with Adirondack top with hide glue. 4 months ago I got a new Western Classic (1937 SJ-200) with a Sitka top. The difference between the two is astounding. The Sitka guitar is very bassy with limited treble. The Adirondack is very trebly with a more even response with plenty of piano like volume, the bass is not overpowering. They are both fairly loud, especially when strummed hard. I think Adirondack is the loudest. I imagine because the Adirondack is stiffer it has less bass response. I am interested to see how they both age. It is hard to say which one I prefer, but the Adirondack has most of my attention right now.

 

Ditto and ditto too! My J200 Standard and my 1938 SJ-200 Golden Age were like night and day. I adored my Standard until I heard and played this 2012 SJ200 Golden Age with hide glue and Red Spruce top. I supposed it could be different scalloping on the braces but the difference is significant!

[Victory Pete]

Ditto and ditto too! My J200 Standard and my 1938 SJ-200 Golden Age were like night and day. I adored my Standard until I heard and played this 2012 SJ200 Golden Age with hide glue and Red Spruce top. I supposed it could be different scalloping on the braces but the difference is significant!

 

Do you have a link to your specific guitar?

[drathbun]

Do you have a link to your specific guitar?

 

Here is a YouTube of the Acoustic Letter review of the 2012 Golden Age SJ200. The one reviewed has rosewood back and sides and mine is maple.

 

There were 75 Rosewood and 75 Maple made in 2012.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaM-N3FFQOs&list=RDEaM-N3FFQOs#t=114

 

This is mine:

 

[Victory Pete]

Here is a YouTube of the Acoustic Letter review of the 2012 Golden Age SJ200. The one reviewed has rosewood back and sides and mine is maple.

 

There were 75 Rosewood and 75 Maple made in 2012.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaM-N3FFQOs&list=RDEaM-N3FFQOs#t=114

 

This is mine:

 

 

That is nice, I like that case. Is yours a different darker sunburst than the one on the video? Also is there no label in the sound hole? He says the binding is yellow, is this true or is it just the regular old ivory they use on all Gibsons.

[hojo199]

When it comes to the type of spruce top I reckon its all completely irrelevant. Id be willing to bet that nobody here in a blind test would be able to tell which is sitka and which has an adi spruce top. Its one of those cork sniffing exercises.

 

Oh I have to disagree. I have three adi guitars and they sound different than their sitka cousins. I could guess correctly while blinded every time.

[Victory Pete]

Oh I have to disagree. I have three adi guitars and they sound different than their sitka cousins. I could guess correctly while blinded every time.

 

Yes sir, having the Adirondack SJ-200 and the Sitka Western Classic it is like night and day.

[drathbun]

That is nice, I like that case. Is yours a different darker sunburst than the one on the video? Also is there no label in the sound hole? He says the binding is yellow, is this true or is it just the regular old ivory they use on all Gibsons.

 

I think the look of the burst is just a function of lighting. There is a pretty bright light on the guitar in the video.

 

I bought my Golden Age used. The previous owner had a framed certificate of authenticity and the orange label is attached to that.

 

The binding is definitely yellow aged. I'm guessing they did it by adding an amber colouring to the nitro.