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Do Les Pauls Have Improving Tone With Age


Sabredog

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Lotta really good replies,

 

I read all of your old threads CApMaster, I believe a lot of it is in the mahogany neck, ffor my particular guitar. It took 2 years for the guitar to finally stay in tune.

 

As I said in combination with the observed fantastic harmonics, was the tuning stability. Which leads me to believe much like a bow and arrows strings My strings Have been applying pressure for 2 years and the wood Has finally permanently fixed.

 

I just watched one of the episodes on how it's made, Watching them making a wagon wheels, They just get the wood wet and the wood bends when you apply pressure, They keep it under pressure while it's drying and crystalizing with heat and the wood is permanently locked rigidly into its new position.

 

So it could be true the wood is becoming stiffer against the applied pressure, which allows the guitar to stay in tune perfectly, which leads to fantastic harmonic bloom when the notes are in tune with each other.

 

That could be the net observation, For the first year the guitar wouldn't stay in tune, so that's why it didn't sound as good.

 

Thanks for all the observations and stories

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... It took 2 years for the guitar to finally stay in tune. ...

Or it took two years for you to adjust your grip so that you're not squeezing the notes out of tune. :-k

 

There are lots of points contributing here like nuts and bridge saddles. I often remember the words of wisdom that L5Larry posted some years ago as a comment into a robot tuning thread - I quote: "Tuning is an art in itself." I agree to the full extent of an artisan's craftmanship. For best results, different guitar makes call for different approaches to tuning. The only thing I do the same with all of them is the order G3rd - D4th - A5th - B2nd - E1st - E6th.

 

I tend to making it faster and easier and use Gibson TP-6 finetuning bridges wherever applicable. Comparing a solid stopbar tailpiece and the typical Gibson string runs across the nut, an Explorer string run, and a Fender string run combined with a typical Fender hardtail, the best ways of tuning are a bit different. Double-locking vibrato systems may call for certain detunings before locking at the nut to achieve the required travels of the fine tuners for either flat and sharp directions.

 

Long-term tuning stability, that is for days and weeks, will also depend on environmental conditions. However, some guitars appear to be quite stable while others are more prone to drift some cents off, sometimes sharp, sometimes flat. I can't say that maple and mahogany necks show differences inherent to the wood species. For instance, my guitars with Floyd Rose systems have the best long-term tuning stability, regardless if Gibson Les Paul (mahogany/rosewood), Fender Stratocasters (maple/rosewood and one-piece maple), or Ibanez Roadstar (maple/rosewood).

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Lotta really good replies,

 

I read all of your old threads CApMaster, I believe a lot of it is in the mahogany neck, ffor my particular guitar. It took 2 years for the guitar to finally stay in tune.

 

As I said in combination with the observed fantastic harmonics, was the tuning stability. Which leads me to believe much like a bow and arrows strings My strings Have been applying pressure for 2 years and the wood Has finally permanently fixed.

 

I just watched one of the episodes on how it's made, Watching them making a wagon wheels, They just get the wood wet and the wood bends when you apply pressure, They keep it under pressure while it's drying and crystalizing with heat and the wood is permanently locked rigidly into its new position.

 

So it could be true the wood is becoming stiffer against the applied pressure, which allows the guitar to stay in tune perfectly, which leads to fantastic harmonic bloom when the notes are in tune with each other.

 

That could be the net observation, For the first year the guitar wouldn't stay in tune, so that's why it didn't sound as good.

 

Thanks for all the observations and stories

 

The wood is at under 4% when it is put together. It is not possible for it to lose enough moisture to make any difference other than a teeny bit of fret sprout. You probably have adjusted to playing that guitar such that you aren't pushing the strings around and out of tune...

 

or...

 

You've been playing long enough now that you can play around minor anomalies in tuning, therefore you don't care to sit around obsessing over how in tune something is, realizing that there is only close enough, which can be perfectly in tune, but doesn't have to be.

 

rct

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This very track convinced me about several things on-topic;

 

EC playing a six-year-old Les Paul;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkulcvRkd4I

 

Pip.

Great playing by Eric Clapton. Thanks for sharing this clip here. [thumbup]

 

I'm with Joe Bonamassa - see video description - that the use of a Dallas Rangemaster is questionable. Like mentioned there, too, it would be interesting to know if EC remembers... :-k

 

 

The wood is at under 4% when it is put together. It is not possible for it to lose enough moisture to make any difference other than a teeny bit of fret sprout. ...

rct

Combined with kiln drying, the little humidity left slows down the chemical reactions I mentioned here in the 2nd paragraph: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/135349-do-les-pauls-have-improving-tone-with-age/page__view__findpost__p__1831444

 

In other words, when about a steady state of chemistry within the woods, in particular sapwoods like maple, alder, ashwood, basswood or spruce, air-dried timbers are much closer to it and in this regard "older" when processed for guitar building. Witnessing my Ibanez Roadstar made in 1986 age has been a crucial experience until she reached that "old" sound around 2000, with very fast reaction to attack and lots of natural compression. Their basswood body and maple neck blanks were kiln-dried I think, as well as the rosewood fretboard blank, but since this is heartwood long dead and aged within the tree trunk before it was chopped, it makes next to no difference for it.

 

Remember that guitar builders turn to using thermally treated, uncorrectly aka "torrefied" woods for building guitars, in order to create new guitars sounding "old". However, in fact this is no substitute for air drying. You can't accelerate organic chemical reactions this way, or you would have to believe hatching an egg could be speeded up boiling it. :o

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Great playing by Eric Clapton. Thanks for sharing this clip here. [thumbup]

 

I'm with Joe Bonamassa - see video description - that the use of a Dallas Rangemaster is questionable. Like mentioned there, too, it would be interesting to know if EC remembers... :-k

 

 

 

Combined with kiln drying, the little humidity left slows down the chemical reactions I mentioned here in the 2nd paragraph: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/135349-do-les-pauls-have-improving-tone-with-age/page__view__findpost__p__1831444

 

In other words, when about a steady state of chemistry within the woods, in particular sapwoods like maple, alder, ashwood, basswood or spruce, air-dried timbers are much closer to it and in this regard "older" when processed for guitar building. Witnessing my Ibanez Roadstar made in 1986 age has been a crucial experience until she reached that "old" sound around 2000, with very fast reaction to attack and lots of natural compression. Their basswood body and maple neck blanks were kiln-dried I think, as well as the rosewood fretboard blank, but since this is heartwood long dead and aged within the tree trunk before it was chopped, it makes next to no difference for it.

 

Remember that guitar builders turn to using thermally treated, uncorrectly aka "torrefied" woods for building guitars, in order to create new guitars sounding "old". However, in fact this is no substitute for air drying. You can't accelerate organic chemical reactions this way, or you would have to believe hatching an egg could be speeded up boiling it. :o

 

I've been around guitars a long time. I don't believe any of it.

 

rct

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I've been around guitars a long time. I don't believe any of it.

 

rct

Lots of my pals would be with you. They modded around, tried different pickups, five string gauges and seventeen string makes of half a dozen of brands, lots of setups, and often owned most of their guitars for short periods only. If I had done this, I couldn't have witnessed many of the changes within the woods, let alone discerned the causes for alterations.

 

Buying a new guitar and expecting it was in a steady state is an illusion if sapwoods are concerned. These instruments may hide surprises to come. Some friends of mine experienced that, too. It always is a matter of luck, too.

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I definitely think there is a break in period and that instruments change as they age. But, it's also a combination of the player and the instrument. No doubt as you play the frets wear, electronics wear, finish wears and this all has an effect. Just as we get more comfortable to to the instrument. Even the amp we play through will change as it wears. Still, no matter what guitar or amp I play through I still sound like me but; my comfort with those instruments change.

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One other observation

 

I used to work with the contractor, we occasionally would rebuild kitchen cabinets. for the door rails we would buy Kiln dried oak or ash 1 x 8

and cut it down on a table saw to 1 x 4, we would select perfectly straight boards, and whenever you would cut it or shape it, the stored tension within the wood grain would release and warp the board after cutting, I was always surprised from a perfectly straight board to a banana by just cutting one edge off.

 

so the stability of kiln drying would make the blank more stable but as soon as you re-shape and remove wood the internal forces allow the wood to change slightly, of course we would clamp and glue it but the wood is moving for a few months. finding new equilibrium in its new shape.

 

I think this happens with necks especially.

 

 

 

 

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...I was always surprised from a perfectly straight board to a banana by just cutting one edge off....I think this happens with necks especially...

I'm not quite sure I'm following your train of thought, Sabredog; are you saying you have seen a large number of guitars which have necks shaped like a banana?

I do know the effect you are describing happens when you slice a carrot lengthways. Most annoying.

 

Pip.

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No, like this -.com/watch?v=eU1ks8mL9OM[/media]

While I'll agree to a point (EC could have been playing a LP, 335 or SG or a Strat if you close your eyes) My point (n post #7?) was the different characteristics of the basic guitar and its' controls. No harm, no foul. I hear ya.

 

Edit: I think it's post #17, not 7, in any event...

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I'm not quite sure I'm following your train of thought, Sabredog; are you saying you have seen a large number of guitars which have necks shaped like a banana?

I do know the effect you are describing happens when you slice a carrot lengthways. Most annoying.

 

Pip.

 

 

I'm saying that wood requires time to equilibrate to its lowest energy point. The kiln drying process helps to fix wood so that it doesn't warp or change so the microscopic structure is essentially locked in to its shape, but when you remove wood or change the shape of the wood, it now starts its equilibration process again the remaining woodgrain is missing some of the nearby grain structures that were holding it in place.

 

I looked on some boatbuilding sites they complain about ripping long boards on a table saw and the wood grains have internal stress release and the board ends up being bowed.

 

It is very subtle, since not much wood was removed from the neck blank, but the wood requires some more time before it finds a shape that is more permanant and strong and resists applied stresses.

 

I've seen it in person with kiln dried oak you make a 1 x 4,x 3' long piece cut from a piece of perfect 1 x 8 x 3' and one of the pieces becomes almost unusable with curvature as it settles into its new equilibrium. You can usually see extra tight grain patterns where the warping is occurring and it can take many days maybe months for the piece to settle into its final lowest energy state.

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[biggrin] I prefer carrots quartersawn. [woot]

I prefer them finely-sliced into batons with a nice extra-virgin olive oil, white wine vinegar, wholegrain-mustard and shallot vinaigrette, seasoned with S. & Pepp.

 

Ah, yes. Seasoning. I knew there was something I wanted to add;

As it happens I have actually done a bit of cabinetmaking myself so I understand the problem of cutting and shaping insufficiently seasoned wood (*) but I've never once heard of a Gibson which had a neck bowed like a banana for the reasons suggested earlier. If, however, anyone has proof that such a neck-bow on a Gibson has been caused by badly seasoned wood I'd be most intrigued to read it. As, I'm sure, would Gibson themselves. Pics would be wonderful ! ! !

 

Pip.

 

EDIT :

(*) I don't have specific snaps of things I've made but the media unit seen in the background is one case in point. It's 80" wide and 16" deep and the 5 main horizontal planks were flat-bed table-sawn from sheets of 8' x 4' pine; some of which were evidently poorly seasoned/stored. Caused me quite a few moments of head-scratching.

 

For%20thread%20DA%20Lo-res_zpsyuj9lj36.jpg

 

If I, as a rank amateur, can find a way to sort out this timber/lumber crap then I'm absolutely 100% sure Gibson are WAY ahead of me on the matter in hand.

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11lbs is a heavy guitar, especially as the Gibson web site says "9 hole weight relief": http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2015/USA/Les-Paul-Classic.aspx My 2014 Traditional is solid bodied and weighs in at 9lbs which I thought was heavy (yes I was sad enough to weigh it).

I'm not so sure a solid bodied electric guitar will change very much, but one thing is certain, a poor sounding one will always be bad, it will never become a good guitar and a good one will always be good.

 

 

Ian

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I'm saying that wood requires time to equilibrate to its lowest energy point. The kiln drying process helps to fix wood so that it doesn't warp or change so the microscopic structure is essentially locked in to its shape, but when you remove wood or change the shape of the wood, it now starts its equilibration process again the remaining woodgrain is missing some of the nearby grain structures that were holding it in place.

 

I looked on some boatbuilding sites they complain about ripping long boards on a table saw and the wood grains have internal stress release and the board ends up being bowed.

 

It is very subtle, since not much wood was removed from the neck blank, but the wood requires some more time before it finds a shape that is more permanant and strong and resists applied stresses.

 

I've seen it in person with kiln dried oak you make a 1 x 4,x 3' long piece cut from a piece of perfect 1 x 8 x 3' and one of the pieces becomes almost unusable with curvature as it settles into its new equilibrium. You can usually see extra tight grain patterns where the warping is occurring and it can take many days maybe months for the piece to settle into its final lowest energy state.

 

Minutiae kills.

 

rct

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While I'll agree to a point...my point...was the different characteristics of the basic guitar and its' controls...

+1.

 

I couldn't possibly agree more. A full exploration of all the tones available from a LP (SG/335/etc...etc...) - and especially with the amp set 'clean' - is a very rewarding, oft-times surprising, undertaking. The variety of sounds with the R/T switch in the middle position is extraordinary. Roll-off the volume of one p'up; roll-back the tone on the other; rinse and repeat.

 

Pip.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm not sure if my 1981 V tone has improved in the years since it was created and it has the curly maple top and mahogany body. I can say that within the three years I bought it, I certainly sounded better playing it and I was comfortable with it and all the nuances of the guitar since it was in my hands for hours a day every day. I'd think there may be some noticeable differences over the years but I don't think it's significant. I think it's the player matching his/herself to the guitar.

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