Victory Pete Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Having bought 5 new acoustics this past year I had replaced all the bridge pins with Waverly bone pins. With the exception of the D-42 all of the new bone pins fit fairly well. I had to slightly ream out the holes so each pin fit nice and snug with the same height. The other 4 guitars are all Gibsons, which all had Tusq pins which are a bit smaller than the bone pins. 2 of the Gibsons, a Western Classic and a 1938 SJ-200, seem to have larger pins holes, as the new bone pins seem to seat all the way down except for the low strings. This bugged me for weeks until yesterday I decide to do something about it. It turns out Gibson does not taper their pin holes. I decided to slightly decrease the diameter of the holes by adding a thin layer of glue, fish glue. Fish glue is similar to hide glue in that it is very hard. I took a slightly smaller size drill bit and coated it with glue and carefully ran it through the hole. When this dried a bit, 4 hours, I did it again but with a tapered nylon bridge pin alignment tool I got from StewMac. I reached in and stopped the nylon pin with my finger and then slowly rotated and pulled it out. This way I have added some taper to the hole. It was a little messy but the fish glue cleans up well with water. This morning I found that this had worked well, the pins now sits high in the holes. I took my 5 degree reamer which matches the Waverly bone pins exactly and fit each pin in for a perfect fit and height. 1 guitar done one to go. I will take some pictures of this operation today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/victoryguitarshop/slideshow/Bridge%20Pin%20Modification The improvement in tone is quite dramatic with this modification. I didn't notice it so much yesterday with the 1938 SJ-200 as it is already a bright guitar having an Adirondack top. This morning I finished the Western Classic which is a very bassy guitar and was astonished at the increased treble response. I didn't realize how important it is to have snug tapered bridge pin holes. I wonder if using the fish glue has anything to do with it or is it just that the holes are now tapered and snug with less air space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Interesting approach. I would have modified the fit by getting a larger dimension pin and sanding it until it fit snugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Interesting approach. I would have modified the fit by getting a larger dimension pin and sanding it until it fit snugly. I want all my pins to be the same kind and size, Waverly. Even if a large pin was used, there would still be no taper. I think the taper is an important part of good tone. Also sanding the pins would mean each pin would have to go to a specific hole every string change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 I did this modification to my new J-45 Custom and it is all put back together and tuned up. All I can say is wow. Even though these are 1 month old strings, which to me sounded dead yesterday, they now sound like new strings, the guitar has lots of zing now with the holes tapered with the glue. I have one left to do, the Southern Jumbo. I am glad I figured this out, the Gibsons sound so much better now. I was told that Gibson Montana has never tapered their holes. I really think Gibson should start tapering their holes. Martin has always tapered their holes. Just goes to show you that Martin really is a bit ahead of Gibson in many areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Last Gibson is done, my Southern Jumbo. This guitar being my only mahogany guitar, was already relatively bright, I listened to it yesterday with its 1 month old strings and I could tell the strings needed to be changed. After the modification it now seems like it has new strings on it also. Each string seems to have a certain presence. It seems everything has improved with all these guitars, volume, both treble and bass, clarity and sustain. I am so glad I had this revelation as I would have been missing out on truly exceptional sounding guitars, and the thing is they still have yet to completely open up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliasphobias Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 ! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 He's deleted his response It was a good response but probably written while biting his tongue I'm sure lots of members have 'almost' responded and then thought better of it Basically , you kee coming on here with cockamamie theories to the point where you are doing it to wind people up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 He's deleted his response It was a good response but probably written while biting his tongue I'm sure lots of members have 'almost' responded and then thought better of it Basically , you kee coming on here with cockamamie theories to the point where you are doing it to wind people up Incorrect, no cockamamie theories whatsoever, just pure facts and reality. If anyone is so stubborn and belligerent here to keep trying to belittle my efforts, then it is their loss. I am trying to share my knowledge and revelations with what I thought would be other curious and open minded guitarists. I guess I was wrong, I am not sure what we have here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Yeah , the Jehovah's Witness are only trying to help when they knock a door also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 VP - Interesting process. I have no doubt that at some level your modifications result in a much more consistent contact into the bridge and bridge plate - and your observation of a more robust tone no doubt resulted. By the way - that four-ribbon bridge Western Classic is a beaut. Just curious, do any of your guitars also sport "slotted" bridges? Is that sort of the same theory, being that the bridge pins for those are solid? Thinking about it now, if the bridge pin holes were not tapered, as you've done, there would still be some gaps in the connection. Thanks for the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Spending the time playing the guitars is more helpful than deliberately ruining them, for guitars and players as well. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 VP - Interesting process. I have no doubt that at some level your modifications result in a much more consistent contact into the bridge and bridge plate - and your observation of a more robust tone no doubt resulted. By the way - that four-ribbon bridge Western Classic is a beaut. Just curious, do any of your guitars also sport "slotted" bridges? Is that sort of the same theory, being that the bridge pins for those are solid? Thinking about it now, if the bridge pin holes were not tapered, as you've done, there would still be some gaps in the connection. Thanks for the pics. None of my guitars are set up with slotted holes. I am considering going with unslotted pins at some point in the future, I think they are ultimately the best way to get maximum volume and tone and bridge plate life, as the edge of the bridge plate can tend to wear when only part of the ball is resting on it, hence for that reason my modification should improve that as well. Yes all holes should be tapered with no gaps for the best situation. Thanks for your thoughtful response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Spending the time playing the guitars is more helpful than deliberately ruining them, for guitars and players as well. Just my two cents. I agree, that is why I play mine as much as possible and do all I can to improve them and not ruin them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Yeah , the Jehovah's Witness are only trying to help when they knock a door also Thanks for again proving my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 VP, I assume you posted this thread for discussion and not simply to get a bunch people agreeing with you. Sort of like when a scientist publishes a research paper. So, I have 3 observations: 1. You've not actually 'proved' anything. We all know that 'tone is in the ear of the beholder', as are changes in tone. Your observations of a 'dramatic improvement in tone' and an 'astonishing increase in treble response' are all purely subjective. You have to admit that, after your modification, you will be pre-disposed to believe you hear an improvement. It could have been temporary changes to the strings. 2. As far as the difference between a taper and a straight hole/pin setup, I would tend to believe (intuitively, not scientifically) that the straight hole offers more friction. or 'grab', and therefore more contact with the bridge and bridge plate. For example, if instead of a 5 degree taper you put in a 50 degree taper - the pins would fall out if you held the guitar upside down before you inserted the string end with the ball snugged up against it. Have you considered that coating the inside of your pin holes with fish glue had more of an impact than the tapering? 3. Finally, I guess what bugs me about your experiments to improve the Gibson's you purchase - is that you always conclude that Gibson knows less than you do about building guitars. Your conclusion "Just goes to show you Martin is ahead of Gibson in many areas." similar to your conclusions on your other un-proved experiments, makes me wonder if you don't actually start our with THAT as your hypothesis and then look for a way to 'prove' it. Had you not added that little dig, I would have just 'bitten my tongue' and moved on - assuming your intentions were honorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 VP, I assume you posted this thread for discussion and not simply to get a bunch people agreeing with you. Sort of like when a scientist publishes a research paper. So, I have 3 observations: 1. You've not actually 'proved' anything. We all know that 'tone is in the ear of the beholder', as are changes in tone. Your observations of a 'dramatic improvement in tone' and an 'astonishing increase in treble response' are all purely subjective. You have to admit that, after your modification, you will be pre-disposed to believe you hear an improvement. It could have been temporary changes to the strings. 2. As far as the difference between a taper and a straight hole/pin setup, I would tend to believe (intuitively, not scientifically) that the straight hole offers more friction. or 'grab', and therefore more contact with the bridge and bridge plate. For example, if instead of a 5 degree taper you put in a 50 degree taper - the pins would fall out if you held the guitar upside down before you inserted the string end with the ball snugged up against it. Have you considered that coating the inside of your pin holes with fish glue had more of an impact than the tapering? 3. Finally, I guess what bugs me about your experiments to improve the Gibson's you purchase - is that you always conclude that Gibson knows less than you do about building guitars. Your conclusion "Just goes to show you Martin is ahead of Gibson in many areas." similar to your conclusions on your other un-proved experiments, makes me wonder if you don't actually start our with THAT as your hypothesis and then look for a way to 'prove' it. Had you not added that little dig, I would have just 'bitten my tongue' and moved on - assuming your intentions were honorable. Oh hi again, please don't assume, 1. Yes I have proved something, to myself and maybe some other reasonable people. This mod was never to improve the tone, it was to raise the height of the pins to a uniform height. It was only after doing the mod I certainly noticed the dramatic improvement in tone. Any temporary changes to the strings which does seem to occur when you slacken a string and then retune, only last a day or so, as it has been a week and the guitars still sound so much better I dismiss that as an effect of what I am hearing. 2. Straight holes do not have more grab, they have more slop. I can prove this as my new tapered holes hold the pin so well now I have to use a bridge pin tool to pull them out, sorry. I am certain making the holes tapered improves the tone, and I also wonder if the addition of hard fish glue has something to do with it, you see, I assume nothing. 3. Gibson or any other maker not tapering their holes being not an optimum situation is not only my opinion, it is stated all over the internet and proved in my modification. 4. Nice try, but my other experiments have certainly been proven to me, right in front of me over and over. Maybe you can do some testing yourself and put your words where your mouth is, try it scientifically and not intuitively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Haha Bloody hell Yeah fortyyears , what would you know ? Don't you realise you're talking to a guitar guru here ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I once knew a guy that thought he could make scientific improvements to his Piper Cub. He's now a spot in a meadow 5 miles from the airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olie Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I don't know if this has been suggested before but, if it hasn't, I think that Gibson should give over a seperate page dedicated to Victory Pete. I see a cult in the making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I read that wrong Thought you were gonna get barred Cult , yip. He's a cult alright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Don't nobody git barred! This here is jest gitten' plumb inneresting😧 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Wow, typical non-substantial replies. Please enlighten us with your knowledge, but try using some facts instead of useless comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olie Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Wow, typical non-substantial replies. Please enlighten us with your knowledge, but try using some facts instead of useless comments. That's what I'm talkin' about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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