IanHenry Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Stumbled upon this video comparing a genuine 59 Les Paul with a 2002 Historic fitted with DiMarzio PAF's. The 59 sounds great but I don't think the reissue comes close, at least not to my ears. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81TwyIb5c_Q#t=373.9865833 Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Agreed. And, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. C.O. Jones Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 First thought, nice he does it acoustically could be interesting. But then he seems to have used a very thin plectrum wich produced a very annoying and distracting sound. At least to my ears, may have to watch that part again. After that with amp, why has it to be always overdriven, the best way to hear the differences would have been clean. I love dirt but not for comparisons. And the last thing, I think Gibson makes very nice PAF-style pickups, having Custom Buckers, BB's, 57 C's, and my beloved 59 T's who needs all the other makers? Bah, don't listen to me I'm weird anyway...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. C.O. Jones Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Ok I ignored the pick now. The original is far more resonant and seems to be twice as loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 The original '59 may sound better, but the question is, is it $200,000+ better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Another tw@ demonstrating the gain stage of an amp when he wants to demo some pups. Ho hum. That 59 sounded good unplugged. The 2002 sounds dead to me. I think he bought a dud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Another tw@ demonstrating the gain stage of an amp You sound in a good mood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 You sound in a good mood ha!! but,, he's right,, try backing the gain off, some grit maybe but, sounds like the gain is dimed.. not the way to pull out the subtleties of tone.. is it just me,, (and some of us) Why don't these guys realize this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 ha!! but,, he's right,, try backing the gain off, some grit maybe but, sounds like the gain is dimed.. not the way to pull out the subtleties of tone.. is it just me,, (and some of us) Why don't these guys realize this?? Well, that kinda makes it clear...uh, who they are selling to maybe? rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 ...That 59 sounded good unplugged. The 2002 sounds dead to me. I think he bought a dud... This. Probably.............. I, too, think his Historic is a dud. Of the many dozens of R-I's I've played I noticed pretty much the same disparity between those which were average and those which were spectacular. My guess is that precisely the same thing is going on here. And +1, of course, for the amp settings. Overall it was rather muddy.The '59 sounded far better than the R-I unplugged and I suspect that the difference in tone would have been even more evident had we been allowed to hear it really sing cleanly. The original '59 may sound better, but the question is, is it $200,000+ better?... Yes. Assuming you have the spare change to be able to afford to buy it, that is. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Yes. Assuming you have the spare change to be able to afford to buy it, that is. Pip. Hello pippy. The thing that always makes me question the crazy price of vintage 'bursts is looking at other classic Gibson instruments from the Ted 'golden' era. Take an original 60's Tal Farlow... pretty rare as only 215 made, equally as good as any 58- 60 'Burst (just different obviously, being an archtop), but only a fraction of the cost. Or how about an original 50's ES 5 SM that you can get for anywhere from $10,000 - $20,000? Even the '52 - '57 Les Paul's are nowhere near as expensive as a 'burst. The only thing that makes 'bursts so expensive is the mystique and hype surrounding them. Is a '57 Goldtop or Custom as good as a 'burst? Yes, I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Hi, Cody. I can't argue with anything you wrote. As you already know a '57 / '58 Gold-Top is, to all intents and purposes, exactly the same guitar as a 'burst yet is a fraction of the price. A PAF'd Custom is twice as rare as a 'burst yet is also a fraction of the price (although it's a slightly different animal in terms of construction). If you fancy an earlier Custom there's an all-original '55 currently on offer from Gruhn's for a paltry $17,500... Mystique and Hype, of course, are the major factors; but why did this mystique and hype become attached to the 'burst in the first place? Clearly the famous players who used them - and the seminal albums cut by the players playing them - were a fundamental part of the phenomenon......but why did these players choose a 'burst? Was it because the flame-top'd ones in particular are generally thought to be prettier than a GT or a Custom, perhaps? It's pretty well-known that Clapton wanted a LP with PAFs having heard Freddie King's "Let's Dance Away..." album and got what became the 'Beano'. This album and Clapton's playing thereon influenced practically all the then current UK-based Bluesmen. I'm pretty sure I read that Mike Bloomfield, who had regularly been playing a '54, got his 'burst (from Dan Erlewine) in '67 after seeing the Bluesbreakers when visiting London but I can't find my original source for confirmation... The funny thing is that King was playing a Gold-Top; it just so happened that the LP Clapton found was a Sunburst... Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 I guess it's just because 59's were the guitars that all the greats played, Peter Green etc. There is a film on YouTube where the Guy who owns one of Kossoff's Les Paul's says he belives the guitar is actually a 58 but no one knows for sure because the original headstock is long gone. It's interesting what Joe Bonamassa has to say in this film at 26:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwWjEJjUoeg&t=1521s Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 ...It's interesting what Joe Bonamassa has to say in this film at 26:50... Yes; someone posted that clip a short while ago. I thought there was interesting stuff spread the whole way through! I only very recently discovered that my favourite track on EC's 'Journeyman' album, 'Hard Times', was recorded using his original '64 ES 335 from way back in his Yardbirds days. I still don't quite know why ALL those players bought Sunburst Standards, though. There are exceptions; Keith Richards, Jimmy Page and Peter Frampton all had 3-p'up Customs and Snowy White has his well-known Gold Top and so on but even so...... Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Also, of course, the neck of a 57 should be considered. Somewhat thicker, on average, than that of a 59 (in theory) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 Yes; someone posted that clip a short while ago. I thought there was interesting stuff spread the whole way through! I only very recently discovered that my favourite track on EC's 'Journeyman' album, 'Hard Times', was recorded using his original '64 ES 335 from way back in his Yardbirds days. I still don't quite know why ALL those players bought Sunburst Standards, though. There are exceptions; Keith Richards, Jimmy Page and Peter Frampton all had 3-p'up Customs and Snowy White has his well-known Gold Top and so on but even so...... Pip. I think Snowy came upon his Les Paul by chance, it was underneath someone's bed in Sweden. I also understand that he turned down the opportunity of doing a swap with Peter Green for Greeny. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Well, that kinda makes it clear...uh, who they are selling to maybe? rct This is what it is, when I first saw that video a while back I had many questions. I had those DiMarzio pickups on my 58 reissue until today, coincidentally I swapped them for classic 57's earlier. The DiMarzio pickups have alnico 5 magnets and not very traditional PAF construction, they sound good and clear clean and wither overdrive and distortion but not with mild break up and that is why the demo was done this way. This is the only time I have seen an acoustic comparison of an electric guitar, I suspect the point is that even a guitar ""like that can sound good "like this", after all this is a DiMarzio commercial. I would put my Les Paul faded against that '59 anytime, but it is not pretty or a '59 so it will not matter. Paul Riario is a well respected player, I saw hiw here in Nashville at NAMM a couple of years ago and he can play just about everything, I find it odd that he would have picked a Les Paul that is a dud, I wonder if it is really his. The weird thing is that when Eric Clapton played his LP on Beano the guitar was 5 years old or so, similar for all of the other guys that played bursts abck in the 60's and 70's, now it turns out is because of 50 year old wood? the math does not add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Mystique and Hype, of course, are the major factors; but why did this mystique and hype become attached to the 'burst in the first place? Clearly the famous players who used them - and the seminal albums cut by the players playing them - were a fundamental part of the phenomenon......but why did these players choose a 'burst? Was it because the flame-top'd ones in particular are generally thought to be prettier than a GT or a Custom, perhaps? It's pretty well-known that Clapton wanted a LP with PAFs having heard Freddie King's "Let's Dance Away..." album and got what became the 'Beano'. This album and Clapton's playing thereon influenced practically all the then current UK-based Bluesmen. I'm pretty sure I read that Mike Bloomfield, who had regularly been playing a '54, got his 'burst (from Dan Erlewine) in '67 after seeing the Bluesbreakers when visiting London but I can't find my original source for confirmation... The funny thing is that King was playing a Gold-Top; it just so happened that the LP Clapton found was a Sunburst... Pip. Similar thoughts and questions have crossed my head. This month Vintage Guitar magazine features an original '59 in Black with a bigsby, a very rare guitar indeed. The original owner had it ordered in black to match his tuxedo since he could not afford the extra $80 for a Custom. This guitar has been in the same family since the first day so there is no way to know how a black 59 would have been valued compared to a pretty burst but we all know flame matters even when they are the same guitar. His grandson is the owner now, Chris Arena, I had never heard of him before but here is a snippet of the pains that come from owning a 59 Les Paul: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 If my understanding is correct, back in the early to mid-60s they had a limited supply of used Gibsons for sale in England and the British Invasion hadn't begun yet. If that's the case, they bought Sunbursts because that's what the stores had available for sale. Can any of our British members confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Hi, Cody. I can't argue with anything you wrote. As you already know a '57 / '58 Gold-Top is, to all intents and purposes, exactly the same guitar as a 'burst yet is a fraction of the price. A PAF'd Custom is twice as rare as a 'burst yet is also a fraction of the price (although it's a slightly different animal in terms of construction). If you fancy an earlier Custom there's an all-original '55 currently on offer from Gruhn's for a paltry $17,500... Mystique and Hype, of course, are the major factors; but why did this mystique and hype become attached to the 'burst in the first place? Clearly the famous players who used them - and the seminal albums cut by the players playing them - were a fundamental part of the phenomenon......but why did these players choose a 'burst? Was it because the flame-top'd ones in particular are generally thought to be prettier than a GT or a Custom, perhaps? It's pretty well-known that Clapton wanted a LP with PAFs having heard Freddie King's "Let's Dance Away..." album and got what became the 'Beano'. This album and Clapton's playing thereon influenced practically all the then current UK-based Bluesmen. I'm pretty sure I read that Mike Bloomfield, who had regularly been playing a '54, got his 'burst (from Dan Erlewine) in '67 after seeing the Bluesbreakers when visiting London but I can't find my original source for confirmation... The funny thing is that King was playing a Gold-Top; it just so happened that the LP Clapton found was a Sunburst... Pip. Interesting thoughts. I guess, as you mention, the primary reason for players going for a Sunburst was simply that they thought the tops were prettier than the goldtop or black Custom. I recall reading about both Clapton and Bloomfield's LP's. There was some good info in Tony Bacon's Sunburst book (a few books mentioned them I think). I can't remember the whole histories either, I'd have to look for the book, but I think I have the same one that talks about them. As you say, it is interesting why these players were drawn to them and the reasons as to 'why?'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 If my understanding is correct, back in the early to mid-60s they had a limited supply of used Gibsons for sale in England and the British Invasion hadn't begun yet. If that's the case, they bought Sunbursts because that's what the stores had available for sale. Can any of our British members confirm this? Yes, I suspect this is the case, I also don't believe there was a conscious effort to have a 59 burst, it was probably what was available at the time, and lets not forget that there are almost sure to be 59 bursts that are lemons but they will still afford astronomical prices today. Regarding the pains of owning one of those guitars, I have been told from a reliable source that the Kossoff guitar lives in a bank vault, would you really want a guitar that you dare not have available to play on a daily basis's? More hassle than it's worth in my opinion. Ian ps I don't want the above statements to put anyone off if they have a burst that they feel the need to offload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 The original '59 may sound better, but the question is, is it $200,000+ better? About 15 GBP per day by quick calc...yep, I reckon I'd be happy to pay that on many days. Mind you, that's 4 pints of bitter foregone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 The DiMarzio pickups have alnico 5 magnets and not very traditional PAF construction, they sound good and clear clean and wither overdrive and distortion but not with mild break up and that is why the demo was done this way. This is the only time I have seen an acoustic comparison of an electric guitar, I suspect the point is that even a guitar ""like that can sound good "like this".......I would put my Les Paul faded against that '59 anytime, but it is not pretty or a '59 so it will not matter. The weird thing is that when Eric Clapton played his LP on Beano the guitar was 5 years old or so, similar for all of the other guys that played bursts back in the 60's and 70's, now it turns out is because of 50 year old wood? the math does not add up. It's been posted many times before but this is always worth a look-see. As far as electrics' acoustic qualities hear what Gary has to say on the matter (from 1:02 to 1:30); http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuVwbyVRDuE ...and I would really love to try out my R0 back-to-back with a good '58-'60 just out of curiosity. And yes; it's usually me being the grouch pointing out that all those LPs were between 5 and 10 years old so the '50-y-old wood' (and even in the original clip the 50 years of original electrics ageing???) mantra doesn't work for me. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I think Snowy came upon his Les Paul by chance, it was underneath someone's bed in Sweden. I also understand that he turned down the opportunity of doing a swap with Peter Green for Greeny... I hadn't heard about the find, Ian. Interesting what some folks keep under the bed! As far as the PG LP is concerned (is it known as 'Greeny'? I didn't know that either!); One of my old mates from here back in the old days knew Gary back in his Lizzy days and after GM bought the LP my pal (Thermionik to us old 'uns) had a go and thought it was a B!tch to play. By all accounts PG didn't think it was that much easier either... ...This month Vintage Guitar magazine features an original '59 in Black with a bigsby, a very rare guitar indeed. The original owner had it ordered in black to match his tuxedo since he could not afford the extra $80 for a Custom... I thought that the guitar above might be the one Joe Bonamassa played (owns?) but the JB one is very different; https://www.vintageguitar.com/21269/the-blackburst/ If my understanding is correct, back in the early to mid-60s they had a limited supply of used Gibsons for sale in England......If that's the case, they bought Sunbursts because that's what the stores had available for sale. That would make a lot of sense, Steve. ...I also don't believe there was a conscious effort to have a 59 burst, it was probably what was available at the time, and lets not forget that there are almost sure to be 59 bursts that are lemons but they will still afford astronomical prices today.Regarding the pains of owning one of those guitars, I have been told from a reliable source that the Kossoff guitar lives in a bank vault, would you really want a guitar that you dare not have available to play on a daily basis's? More hassle than it's worth in my opinion... Yes; Clapton bought his used because it was (AFAIKR) all that was available. I think I'm right in saying that Andy Summers saw a pair of 'bursts in Macari's window and bought one. I think he (or a friend of his) called EC and that's how Clapton ended up with his one. I'm a bit busy ATM so I'll check sources later... Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
american cheez Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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