Jinder Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I have a beautiful '41 SJ100 reissue which I've really bonded with, but have struggled with string imbalances when plugged in since I've owned it. I decided to cut a new saddle for it, but that didn't help at all. After further investigation, I popped the pickup out and found two shims underneath it-the first being cut from cardboard (a Mercedes Benz brochure cover) And the one directly under the pickup being cut from coarse sandpaper! I removed both and refitted the pickup and new saddle, and not only have the string imbalances totally vanished, the guitar also sounds even more stellar unplugged. Gone is a slightly honky tone to the unwound strings and I just can't stop playing it ☺ Before the guitar came to me, it was set up by a very expensive luthier (naming no names) who included a very pro-looking monogrammed satin finish folder with a "service record", much like would be included with an expensive car service, with details inside about how the setup included "raising the action" which would imply the shilling was done during the setup. I was frankly astonished that a professional luthier would ever use such crappy materials to shim a saddle. When I'm not on the road myself I work as a guitar tech and would never shim a saddle unless under pressure, I'd always cut a taller saddle when possible but would shim with rosewood/ebony (depending on bridge material) shimstock if time was an issue. The thought of shimming the bridge of a quality instrument with cardboard and sandpaper makes me really uncomfortable. Especially as the luthier put the shims under the pickup which seems a genuinely bizarre choice of placement. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Mercedes pamphlet? Everybody knows shims cut from an Austin Alegro brochure are way more sonorous. But sandpaper- . . . simply sounds as though this luthier was playing you; no excuse for a professional repair person to use sandpaper for a shim, could you think of a worse material to use? Shims, yes, maybe CNC-cut ebony, but only if you experienced buzzing when removing the ust. New saddle still the best route. Glad you caught it, and now have your guitar’s voice back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Maybe a sin of omission here. He may not have even looked into the problems deep enough to find the cardboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacamartin Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 What do you think? I think the shim was a sham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 From your story we conclude you need a new luthier. Inexcusable sloth on his part. And under the pickup?! Sounds like sabotage. Glad to hear you got it sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Maybe a sin of omission here. He may not have even looked into the problems deep enough to find the cardboard. Thanks a lot for dredging that one up, JedZ. . . I was enjoying my dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I do NOT see how you can hold yourself out there as a luthier and not look under the saddle of a guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Maybe a sin of omission here. He may not have even looked into the problems deep enough to find the cardboard. Needs a few more sheetrock screws, I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 And a little duct tape! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 . A luthier or a shop doing a setup IMO should be pulling the saddle to look the at saddle and slot (and UST if installed) to be sure of what's there and check for problems. Glad you got that mess sorted out with great results. I don't care for shims. I can see them as a temporary solution when waiting for a new saddle, but NOT as a fix. I ran into one on a used J-100 Xtra (12-string) purchase - similar to your story. The action was a bit high, the saddle wasn't compensated and the guitar sounded a bit muddy. I pulled the saddle and found a surprisingly thick shim made from soft pine. It's sure hard to figure what people are thinking when they do things like that. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 I'm glad I'm not the only one horrified by this!! I should clarify, the work was done before the guitar came to me-the "service report" was in the case. I take care of my setups myself, alongside my own music I work as a tour manager and guitar tech, so I only tend to employ a luthier to do hasslesome jobs like refrets and major repairs. Plus I love spending time fettling guitars and know exactly what I want from a setup (no sandpaper under the saddle for a start!!) so it's a win-win. I'm just so glad I got to the bottom of the issue, and I can't believe how GREAT this guitar sounds now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I'd actually like to try sandpaper in my Dove. It is so smooth'n'mellow. Think I'll start with medium grit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 The only shims I've seen used were (thin obviously) hard but flexible plastic.Using cardboard is unbelievable. The only material that would have been more destructive of tone would have been styrofoam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 A shim is always a temporary action as far as I'm concerned. It is a stop-gap until a new saddle can be cut. Saddles, as the conduit between the string and the body of the guitar, are so essential to the tone of the instrument, it is essential that it be the proper material, shape and height. What is the point of a bone saddle when it is sitting on a bed of cardboard? Players and aficionados obsess about saddle, bridge, nut and bridge pin materials regarding their sonic characteristics. Why would one obsess about these things and then shim a saddle, or worse, put a braided piece of metal UST under the saddle? Makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin 1940D28 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I know this is just a personal opinion and question. "why in heavens sake don't you get yourself an electric guitar?" in all my time, I've never listened to or heard an acoustic guitar that sounded like itself other than in person or through a good old microphone with no "enhancing" electric devises. I do like the sound of a "Les Paul" that is not plugged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I know this is just a personal opinion and question. "why in heavens sake don't you get yourself an electric guitar?" in all my time, I've never listened to or heard an acoustic guitar that sounded like itself other than in person or through a good old microphone with no "enhancing" electric devises. I do like the sound of a "Les Paul" that is not plugged in. Some of us just can't relate well to under-saddle pickups, and if I'm overstepping my bounds, I'll amend that to say that at least two of us don't. Ain't nothin' but a shim to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Not sure there's any difference - it had a maple shim before. To avoid being corny I won't say grainy, but perhaps slightly dustier, , , nothing ? , , , placebo ? . . All that I know is that this beautifully opened 96'er sounds like the 7th Dove heaven. Shims don't represent a problem in acoustic guitars. One shouldn't go for or depend on shims, but if they are needed - fx due to humidity changes - slip them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 If you ask me shims are only going to rob your guitars ability to transfer the vibration of the strings to the top. How much though can be debated depending on the shim material and size. My favorite experience with a saddle shim came last year when I bought my Martin D18 from a good picker, but not a luthier by any means. I knew the string height was fine and the guy said he does setup up work, so after I'd finished cleaning up the guitar I strung it up without checking underneath the saddle. Tuned to pitch the guitar was dead. I checked the pins, stretched the strings and then finally I pulled the saddle only to find a piece of a low E string (the heavy one) clipped off and used to shim the bridge up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I have a beautiful '41 SJ100 reissue which I've really bonded with, but have struggled with string imbalances when plugged in since I've owned it. I decided to cut a new saddle for it, but that didn't help at all. After further investigation, I popped the pickup out and found two shims underneath it-the first being cut from cardboard (a Mercedes Benz brochure cover) And the one directly under the pickup being cut from coarse sandpaper! I removed both and refitted the pickup and new saddle, and not only have the string imbalances totally vanished, the guitar also sounds even more stellar unplugged. Gone is a slightly honky tone to the unwound strings and I just can't stop playing it ☺ Before the guitar came to me, it was set up by a very expensive luthier (naming no names) who included a very pro-looking monogrammed satin finish folder with a "service record", much like would be included with an expensive car service, with details inside about how the setup included "raising the action" which would imply the shilling was done during the setup. I was frankly astonished that a professional luthier would ever use such crappy materials to shim a saddle. When I'm not on the road myself I work as a guitar tech and would never shim a saddle unless under pressure, I'd always cut a taller saddle when possible but would shim with rosewood/ebony (depending on bridge material) shimstock if time was an issue. The thought of shimming the bridge of a quality instrument with cardboard and sandpaper makes me really uncomfortable. Especially as the luthier put the shims under the pickup which seems a genuinely bizarre choice of placement. What do you think? was that a Gibson Trick ? adding a shim or two? or someone else? most of our techs up here make that a quick fix for a fast buck.. thats why I do not conduct business with those. Knife and fork techs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Some of us just can't relate well to under-saddle pickups, and if I'm overstepping my bounds, I'll amend that to say that at least two of us don't. Ain't nothin' but a shim to me. Im one of those that has no use for undersaddle tone killers.. they do muffle alot of quality tone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 Pickups are a parlour trick. Sure, I could play my '60s RI Tele through a Twin instead of an acoustic and get away with it for live work, but I'm a session player as well as an original artist, and EVERYONE who wants live acoustic guitar from a session player wants a guitar that looks like an acoustic guitar and sounds like an approximation of one. Most won't even countenance an electric for anything folky or rootsy. I used to show up with a Godin 5th Ave Kingpin and that got vetoed 99 times out of 100 too. It's a case of "if it looks like a duck, and quacks (see what I did there!) like a duck..." The bottom line is that if there is ANY kind of pickup option, sound engineers just won't solely mic an acoustic in a band setup for live shows, no matter the size of the venue, because of potential feedback issues, and most producers who want a quick setup for recording acoustic parts will stick a stereo pair on the guitar and insist on taking a DI out from the moment they see the shiny endpin. Sure, my Gibsons would maybe sound 5% better unplugged without the USTs, but they're working instruments and they have to earn their keep-market forces dictate etc. The best compromise is my '67 J45 with a K&K in it, although those can be a world of feedback hell in big venues with a band setup. I think it's all down to personal preference. I've played for a living for close to 20yrs and I've tried every option with regard to amplification, have worked with hundreds of sound engineers over close to 3000 gigs and have got their thoughts on it, have done session work both in the studio and live for countless bands and artists who have given me their opinions/demands, have made nine albums of my own with several producers and dozens of engineers who have given me their take on it, and have literally gone down pretty much every path open to me in terms of guitar choices, setups, saddle material, pickups, mics and everything to do with the "arse end" of the guitar. Pickups exist because they're useful and in demand. Although I know for sure if I was a home player and never did any live or studio work, I'd have those things out of all my guitars in a flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Maybe a sin of omission here. He may not have even looked into the problems deep enough to find the cardboard. awesome repair job,, you'd never know!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Pete Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Im one of those that has no use for undersaddle tone killers.. they do muffle alot of quality tone.. I am going back to microphones. I have 4 of these coming. http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Endpins_and_Bridge_Pins/NoJak_Endpin.html?lac_guid=4de76bfa-7d02-e711-80d4-ecb1d775572b&utm_campaign=EMAIL-ORD&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=Order_Confirmation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacamartin Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Pickups are a parlour trick. Sure, It's a case of "if it looks like a duck, and quacks (see what I did there!) like a duck..." Pickups exist because they're useful and in demand. Although I know for sure if I was a home player and never did any live or studio work, I'd have those things out of all my guitars in a flash. Jinder....enjoyed your post immensely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Thanks Vacamartin! ☺ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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