Jump to content
Gibson Brands Forums

Gibson shooting themselves in the foot?


sbpark

Recommended Posts

This all started in 2001, when Gibson went back to bed with Guitar Center. Shortly thereafter, the heavy stocking demands on dealers began in earnest, and the first wave of long time dealers began leaving the scene - including Elderly & many others who had been very strong supporters of Gibson.

 

Therefore, 2001 was also the last year in which I was able to locally get my hands on a good selection of new Gibson acoustics to play. The J-100xtra I bought early in that year is sitting right next to me, but never would have been mine if I hadn't been able to play it first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 114
  • Created
  • Last Reply

They either have a lot of bullets, or many feet. They've been doing this for close to if not longer than two decades now.

 

Shop right down the road, where I used to spend about 4 days a week teaching 3/4 hours a day stopped selling USA Gibsons many years ago, Epiphones till the cows come home, but no USA Gibson guitars, and not since the late 90s early 2ks. Once the superstores like GC and back in the day MARS Music sprang up, Gibson started to kill off the smaller local stores. Same story then, as now. Could not meet the demands to remain a dealer.

 

As for buying on line from a reputable source, that's what I've done, I do 90% of all my shopping at Sweetwater, and they are very good about making things right if something isn't. I've bought a # of guitars from them., my 2012 SG standard and SJ200 were SW purchases. Had a problem with the SJ200, (the pickup system was defective) but it was replaced immediately. Nothing you can do about getting a dud, as long as the dealer is good about making it right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but manufacturers don't "support" retailers, it's the other way around. Our last local Gibson dealer stopped dealing Gibsons probably 10 years ago. Only GC now. There are on average, maybe if you are lucky, 3 Gibson acoustics in our Guitar Center on any day, and that's a lot, I don't think there have been any for a few months now. Our local Gibson guy hung probably two dozen, for decades. I would guess that Gibson hasn't sold an acoustic in this 50 mile district in several years now. The retailers were there to support the manufacturer, but the manufacturer chose to use the single outlet big box model, pushing the smaller shops out. They don't support anyone. And in return, we can't support them by buying their guitars.

 

rct

 

By 'support retailers' I meant Gibson does not produce enough guitars to be able to ship a dozen to every one-horse town with a Mom&Pop music store. Obviously, buyers (and tire kickers) get upset if there are only 3.

I understand many here have great anecdotal experiences where their favorite store was unable to stock the minimum Gibson wanted them. That happened to the store on Long Island where I bought my first Gibson. But Sam Ash where I bought my 2nd was only 5 or 6 miles away. That was 50 years ago. The world hasn't ended. Gibson is still in business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many of the concerns seem to center around the minimum stocking requirements Gibson/Bozeman places on retailers. Possibly the minimum is too high in some cases, but I think the idea of a minimum is reasonable. I'm guessing eliminating it would lead to other problems, and different complaints.

The Mom&Pops would all want only one or two J45 Standards. Cork sniffers would get upset because the M&P didn't have an H'Bird Vintage. M&P would get desperate and sell the shop worn J45 at a big loss when the new models came out. . The 'never pay retail' crowd would get wind of those deep discounts and expect similar price cuts on all models, from 5 star dealers via the internet. And, Gibson would have to add overhead in order to do business with 4 times as many retailers. If already struggling M&Ps decided NOT to pay Gibson on time, Gibson would be stuck, having little leverage. And their cash flow would suffer. And, then there is the question of whether the M&P in the small town would have a qualified guitar tech who could set the guitar up to the expectations of the buyer.

Sorry for the 'counter-rant', but folks here suggesting Gibson is in a tailspin, because they can't find a Bob Dylan SJ200 at their corner M&P, when the Acoustic Division is only a part of the company is silly. And pointing to a Moody's downgrade is as well. Gibson was upgraded a couple of years earlier.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By 'support retailers' I meant Gibson does not produce enough guitars to be able to ship a dozen to every one-horse town with a Mom&Pop music store. Obviously, buyers (and tire kickers) get upset if there are only 3.

I understand many here have great anecdotal experiences where their favorite store was unable to stock the minimum Gibson wanted them. That happened to the store on Long Island where I bought my first Gibson. But Sam Ash where I bought my 2nd was only 5 or 6 miles away. That was 50 years ago. The world hasn't ended. Gibson is still in business.

 

They produced enough guitars to have a local "small shop" rep, GC, another small shop 20 odd miles from here, and a GC and Sam Ash 50 miles from here. I don't remember in the other direction, there may have been one other small shop down the coast a bit.

 

They made enough guitars to keep John hanging literally multiple dozens of Gibsons, 20 plus acoustics, from the mid-90s to early 2010s. And GC. And another GC. And a Sam Ash. So yes, they produce and produced enough to keep all of them stocked.

 

"unable to stock the minimum" is a good way of saying "500 thousand dollars down". For any business that isn't national, that is a great deal of money. For any business that isn't national, that is exactly one trip to the bank, because next year you won't get another half a mil. One thing many people do not understand about business: Inventory is, for the most part, on most accounting sheets, bad. Not good. Bad.

 

And I don't think anyone is screaming at the sky about the coming apocalypse. It started with an observation, followed by the observations and experiences of others.

 

rct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many of the concerns seem to center around the minimum stocking requirements Gibson/Bozeman places on retailers. Possibly the minimum is too high in some cases, but I think the idea of a minimum is reasonable. I'm guessing eliminating it would lead to other problems, and different complaints.

The Mom&Pops would all want only one or two J45 Standards. Cork sniffers would get upset because the M&P didn't have an H'Bird Vintage. M&P would get desperate and sell the shop worn J45 at a big loss when the new models came out. . The 'never pay retail' crowd would get wind of those deep discounts and expect similar price cuts on all models, from 5 star dealers via the internet. And, Gibson would have to add overhead in order to do business with 4 times as many retailers. If already struggling M&Ps decided NOT to pay Gibson on time, Gibson would be stuck, having little leverage. And their cash flow would suffer. And, then there is the question of whether the M&P in the small town would have a qualified guitar tech who could set the guitar up to the expectations of the buyer.

Sorry for the 'counter-rant', but folks here suggesting Gibson is in a tailspin, because they can't find a Bob Dylan SJ200 at their corner M&P, when the Acoustic Division is only a part of the company is silly. And pointing to a Moody's downgrade is as well. Gibson was upgraded a couple of years earlier.

 

I for one am not suggesting they are in a tailspin, only that the retail system is in flux, and has been for quite some time. The downgrade in the health of two of the three US makers that matter is pretty serious. The money these companies trade in just to keep the lights on is astounding, and when you are moving along an edge that high and that thin, it doesn't take much to make the lights go out.

 

rct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I started playing guitar in the early 1960's one did not necessarily wheel and deal on guitar prices. There was one dealer in the area and they had the guitars, Martin, Gibson, Fender and the less expensive brands (that bring pretty good money these days). I remember a new Tele was $219 dollars, it might as well have been a million for a kid to afford. I played Harmony guitars back then. Some rich kids had a Martin or a Gibson B25. There was not internet and short of driving several hours to a large city you could not get a deal on a guitar.

 

Today there are uncountable guitars out there and many fine guitars go begging in shops because people either don't know quality or don't want to spend more than an easily obtainable amount on a guitar. They are not moving. Dealers are bringing in Asian made guitars that are 4/5's of an American name brand at less than 1/2 the cost. The market gets more bloated. Most of the guitar shops I go into do not have higher end guitars including the two GCs near me. They carry Taylors but not high end ones. They carry Martin and Gibson but nothing more than about $2500 and only one or two of those. Because anything above that price point does not sell.

 

The plan may be to move to buying direct on guitars. I don't know. I do know we are seeing an unprecedented paradigm shift on so many levels that we will have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish I knew how to use the Search function here so I could go back a few months and Cut&Paste my comment from the last time this discussion regurgitated.

 

So why not just ignore the thread all together and not reply at all? I didnt start the thread to irritate people like you who seem to be annoyed whenever a thread like this pops up. And if I had known about all the past threads on this topic I wouldn't have posted. Maybe I just don't have as much time as you do because I have other things going on, like playing my guitar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple local shops explained why, with Gibson setting the amount of inventory a shop must order from them each year, and with things being more and more competitive and unrealistic demands made from Gibson on smaller shops, they simply called Gibson's bluff and said fine, we're just not going to carry your brand anymore.

 

Yes this has been going on for many years now. It seems that Gibson sells all the guitars it makes so they can call the shots.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, no one has said the world is ending..

 

All we are doing is discussing the current state of whats going on... As I said in my earlier post, ive read similar things recently on another forum.. We don't have that many guitar shops over here.. The small shops were put out by online and the chains... Those chains seem to be failing cos the profit margins are getting so small and the outlay is so big (or they were just run really bad).

 

As for if Henry will one day decide that its not worth it any more and what would happen after that who knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for if Henry will one day decide that its not worth it any more and what would happen after that who knows.

 

shop.gibson.com would happen. They'd lose business to the consumer that prefers doing in-store, in-person business, but based upon other replies in this thread they're already missing out on a lot of that business anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

shop.gibson.com would happen. They'd lose business to the consumer that prefers doing in-store, in-person business, but based upon other replies in this thread they're already missing out on a lot of that business anyway.

I would have thought more like Amazon exclusive....

 

Then Gibson don't have to deal with the public directly... and Amazon is already set up for it.

 

Who knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have thought more like Amazon exclusive....

 

Then Gibson don't have to deal with the public directly... and Amazon is already set up for it.

 

Who knows.

 

You may have a point, they already have a few Amazon exclusive electric guitars today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ship sailed many moons ago on being able to play a decent selection of Gibsons in person, and that's what I find the most problematic. It's sad, because as I mentioned in my post above, a rather extensive network with many supportive dealers was in place through 2001.

 

My nearest metro area is Portland, Oregon. There is essentially one dealer, Guitar Center, with three stores that typically order & stock the same models. Great if you want to consider a J-15 or possibly a standard J-45, but not much beyond that.

 

Simply pathetic for a region of approx 2.5 million people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this has been happening so long Stateside, why do so many folks here keep up the mantra of 'always play before you buy'? According to this thread, what that advice effectively amounts to is: 'one of the 3 random Gibsons in your local store is bound to be a better instrument than one of the many random instruments available online'. An interesting take on the principles of probability there.

 

On this side of the pond, the reply to the mantra has long been: 'we don't have that many individual Gibsons to try out and compare, let alone different models, so buying online is pretty well essential'. Interesting to find out that things are not all that different in the land of origin. I think I need a large dose of fish glue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this has been happening so long Stateside, why do so many folks here keep up the mantra of 'always play before you buy'? According to this thread, what that advice effectively amounts to is: 'one of the 3 random Gibsons in your local store is bound to be a better instrument than one of the many random instruments available online'. An interesting take on the principles of probability there.

 

On this side of the pond, the reply to the mantra has long been: 'we don't have that many individual Gibsons to try out and compare, let alone different models, so buying online is pretty well essential'. Interesting to find out that things are not all that different in the land of origin. I think I need a large dose of fish glue.

 

Throat Warbler Mangrove, tut tut and all that rubbish old fruit.

 

rct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I need a large dose of fish glue.

 

 

Fish glue will make your insides seize up unless it is quickly diluted by fairly large quantities of ethanol, preferably of the type distilled from malted barley.

 

You have been warned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Throat Warbler Mangrove, tut tut and all that rubbish old fruit.

 

rct

 

You forgot wainscotting and how's yer father dear boy. Lambeth walk up the apples and stairs.

 

Keep taking the Kool-Aid: it makes the fish glue more palatable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to this thread, what that advice effectively amounts to is: 'one of the 3 random Gibsons in your local store is bound to be a better instrument than one of the many random instruments available online'. An interesting take on the principles of probability there.

 

yep!

 

the days of the traditional shopping journey for that "perfect" instrument is really a thing of the past around here, and has been for many years now.

 

it's just not practical.. the closest GC from me is at least an hour away, and traffic to all of these places would suck the life out of ya. and when you get there, what you wind up playing boils down to "used" instruments (new ones that have got some "Store born cosmetic issues" that they are trying to sell as new. ) and that's IF they even have WHAT you went lookin for.. often times,, nope..

 

I'm ok with the online thing, just gotta know who you are dealing with.

 

in the last 10 years, there are only 2 guitars I have today that I tried-before-i-buy'd... all the others have come in a fed ex truck with the dealer backing up the purchase if I had trouble,, out of those, (about 10 ~ 12) only ONE had to go back because of a problem... the rest were good out of the box, after a proper set up made them keepers.

 

Overall.. There are only two stores in this area, the one closets is very good, but mostly all imports for all guitars sold, the other one is a dump.. I'm amazed it hasn't closed it's doors.. won't even buy strings from them unless I'm in a bind, and most of the time, it was a wasted drive because they are "out" and haven't bothered to reorder...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's just like the farm machinery business here and everywhere else no more mom and pop implement dealers,no one can afford to inventory millions in farm equipment except the big implement dealers.Gibson isn't any different. That's just the way it is. The times are a changing. We have to adapt to the new or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to this thread, what that advice effectively amounts to is: 'one of the 3 random Gibsons in your local store is bound to be a better instrument than one of the many random instruments available online'. An interesting take on the principles of probability there.

 

yep!

 

the days of the traditional shopping journey for that "perfect" instrument is really a thing of the past around here, and has been for many years now.

 

it's just not practical.. the closest GC from me is at least an hour away, and traffic to all of these places would suck the life out of ya. and when you get there, what you wind up playing boils down to "used" instruments (new ones that have got some "Store born cosmetic issues" that they are trying to sell as new. ) and that's IF they even have WHAT you went lookin for.. often times,, nope..

 

I'm ok with the online thing, just gotta know who you are dealing with.

 

in the last 10 years, there are only 2 guitars I have today that I tried-before-i-buy'd... all the others have come in a fed ex truck with the dealer backing up the purchase if I had trouble,, out of those, (about 10 ~ 12) only ONE had to go back because of a problem... the rest were good out of the box, after a proper set up made them keepers.

 

Overall.. There are only two stores in this area, the one closets is very good, but mostly all imports for all guitars sold, the other one is a dump.. I'm amazed it hasn't closed it's doors.. won't even buy strings from them unless I'm in a bind, and most of the time, it was a wasted drive because they are "out" and haven't bothered to reorder...

 

Two words for you: Leh Minstah.

 

rct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's just like the farm machinery business here and everywhere else no more mom and pop implement dealers,no one can afford to inventory millions in farm equipment except the big implement dealers.Gibson isn't any different. That's just the way it is. The times are a changing. We have to adapt to the new or not.

 

Well yes, but we are possibly at a crossroads where it is important to ask exactly what sort of work people are supposed to do in the future and train for now. I am deeply sceptical about the possibility that computer translation is going to make it pointless for humans to learn foreign languages any time soon, but I can see how vast medical databases hooked up to a user-friendly interface might become better at diagnosing our ills than the local doctor, or how something similar might give backroom lawyers a run for their money. Lots of highly skilled employment really does look like it might go the way of hand-weaving and cloth-shearing at the beginning of the nineteenth century. Perhaps everybody can become a programmer, or a barista feeding the programmers coffee intravenously. Perhaps not. Once retail is stripped down to ultra-efficient warehouses with a few operatives guided by computers, what is left for the less skilled workforce? It's not as though the mechanization of agriculture and industry has failed, leaving big landowners and factory bosses crying out for a return to mass manual labour. States can turn protectionist and return jobs to their own people, but unless they also forcibly de-mechanize and ban technical advances, market forces will mean that the number of jobs they are repatriating will be ever-decreasing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fish glue will make your insides seize up unless it is quickly diluted by fairly large quantities of ethanol, preferably of the type distilled from malted barley.

 

You have been warned.

Thanks Nick - I believe you just saved me from death by fish glue! 😨

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...