Gibson Guitar Board: What Say You? Are American (made) products pricing themselves out of Business? - Gibson Guitar Board

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What Say You? Are American (made) products pricing themselves out of Business? I.E. Law of Diminishing Returns, etc.

#21 User is offline   merciful-evans 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:01 PM

I dont think Gibson are anywhere as bad as either Fender or PRS here.

Fender Custom Shop & PRS Private Stock seem far worse. I identify these high price tiers as being for either:

1/ Those with plenty of money & want something special & more exclusive.
or...

2/ Is it more a matter of trying to field every market? Epi, Squier and SE serve a massive budget market. We know about the regular USA range. But what about all those rich folk? Why should they have to put up with what everybody else use? They ought to have really expensive guitars as befits their really big wallets.

PRS PS is crazy money. http://reverb.com/uk...wodEyMJ6w&pla=1

Fender CS is ridiculous because they are exactly the same build as the original ethos of make 'em quick, cheap & fast. http://www.thomann.d...CFawW0wodJTsO8w




So Gibson dont seem as bad to me.

(and good on Rickenbacker for just keeping it simple!)
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#22 User is offline   Mojorule 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:08 PM

View Postmerciful-evans, on 13 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:


Fender CS is ridiculous because they are exactly the same build as the original ethos of make 'em quick, cheap & fast.


I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but don't John Cruz and co actually cut and sand all those bodies and necks individually by hand before they bolt them together with a platinum screwdriver and start rubbing the finish off with homemade tools?
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#23 User is offline   merciful-evans 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:16 PM

View PostMojorule, on 13 March 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but don't John Cruz and co actually cut and sand all those bodies and necks individually by hand before they bolt them together with a platinum screwdriver and start rubbing the finish off with homemade tools?


[biggrin]
Hagstrom Deuce / Fylde Acoustic / Variax Standard / Gibson ES-339 / Gibson LP Less+ / PRS SE Custom24 / Hofner HCT-J17 / Camps Spanish / Jackson Soloist / Rickenbacker 650 /Squier Esprit
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Verdict 6" vernier scale calipers
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#24 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:58 PM

View PostMojorule, on 13 March 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

But you have pointed out elsewhere that a lot of the value is in the headstock shape and the name on it, as I recall. Why does an all-solid-wood Epiphone Masterbilt J45ME cost less than half as much as a Gibson J35 made from the same basic types of wood? I know which I'd rather have, but I don't seriously believe that the wood in it is worth over twice as much. I might want to believe it, of course, but that's just commodity fetishism.


Because it isn't a Gibson. The price of the materials is overhead to the companies that make them. If Epiphone could charge and get what Gibson gets, they would.

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#25 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:11 PM

View Postmerciful-evans, on 13 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

...
Fender CS is ridiculous because they are exactly the same build as the original ethos of make 'em quick, cheap & fast. http://www.thomann.d...CFawW0wodJTsO8w
...

View PostMojorule, on 13 March 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

I agree wholeheartedly in principle, but don't John Cruz and co actually cut and sand all those bodies and necks individually by hand before they bolt them together with a platinum screwdriver and start rubbing the finish off with homemade tools?

View Postmerciful-evans, on 13 March 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

[biggrin]

[laugh] Yep! And did he perhaps remove the finish even from this rift-sawn neck whichs blank probably costs twice the money of a quartersawn and thus perhaps three times that of a quick, cheap and fast flat-sawn one? Funny what people do for money... :o


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#26 User is offline   Mojorule 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:22 PM

View Postrct, on 13 March 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

Because it isn't a Gibson. The price of the materials is overhead to the companies that make them. If Epiphone could charge and get what Gibson gets, they would.

rct


Indeed. Which is to say: if Gibson could charge for an Epiphone what they charge for a Gibson, they would. But the point is that it is the brand and not the materials which count for a significant proportion of the price. There are the US vs Chinese labour costs as well, of course. But fish glue is fish glue. We'll just pay more for Gibson fish glue than for Epiphone fish glue.
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#27 User is offline   Mojorule 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:24 PM

View Postcapmaster, on 13 March 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

[laugh] Yep! And did he perhaps remove the finish even from this rift-sawn neck whichs blank probably costs twice the money of a quartersawn and thus perhaps three times that of a quick, cheap and fast flat-sawn one? Funny what people do for money... :o




But will the rift-sawn neck sound 3 times better and last 3 times longer? It doesn't involve any fish glue at all, so I'm still not convinced of its quality.
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#28 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:43 PM

View PostMojorule, on 13 March 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

But the point is that it is the brand and not the materials which count for a significant proportion of the price. There are the US vs Chinese labour costs as well, of course.


Labor and materials, "factory overhead", are what makes the guitar cost. Brand name is not on any accounting sheet. Yet.

rct
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#29 User is offline   OldCowboy 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:45 PM

 Mojorule, on 13 March 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Indeed. Which is to say: if Gibson could charge for an Epiphone what they charge for a Gibson, they would. But the point is that it is the brand and not the materials which count for a significant proportion of the price. There are the US vs Chinese labour costs as well, of course. But fish glue is fish glue. We'll just pay more for Gibson fish glue than for Epiphone fish glue.

Be careful - folks around some parts of the forum get plenty offended about references to fish (oil, glue, scales, tacos)😖
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#30 User is offline   Mr. Gibson 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:15 PM

Seems like nobody believes in denying themselves of anything anymore. Credit cards took care of that.
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#31 User is offline   jaxson50 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:52 PM

Mr. Gibson said:

1489454154[/url]' post='1841327']
Seems like nobody believes in denying themselves of anything anymore. Credit cards took care of that.


Cheap credit is the only thing keeping some people afloat, but as we all know credit is a shovel
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#32 User is offline   flyingarmadillo 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:53 PM

The relative price hasn't gone up that much. In 1959 a Les Paul Flame Top listed for about $375. That translates to $3070 in 2016 dollars. A 2017 Les Paul Standard HP has an MSRP of $3200. So the price isn't really that much higher if you compare likes. The same goes for cars or whatever else you want to compare. Excepting salaries, those haven't kept up unless you're a corporate CEO. In 1974 a starting salary for my job was $12K. That works out to about $61,500 in 2016. However starting salaries for the equivalent job now are around $45K. So the slippage isn't in prices, it's in your paycheck.
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#33 User is offline   zigzag 

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:02 PM

Could it be that as the quality of Squires and Epiphones approaches the quality of Fenders and Gibsons, the prices of all are going up accordingly. And not only is Chinese quality going up, but so are their wages, standard of living, and technologies.
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#34 User is offline   kidblast 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:47 AM

View Postdeeman, on 13 March 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Kid, I dropped cable. I have an HD antenna, I get quite a bit of channels being under 10 miles outside downtown Chicago. I pay 7 a month for Netflix and 12 for Hulu and about $40 for internet.

I found a cell phone company that is $25 bucks a month per line. You buy the phones outright and get unlimited calls text and 1 gb of data (which for me is plenty as I'm mostly on wifi anyway.)

There are deals out there and ways to catch live sports by subscribing to services just for that or watching the game at the local watering hole.



agree! they're are ways to avoid this. We're considering doing just this. had enough..
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#35 User is offline   OldCowboy 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:05 AM

 flyingarmadillo, on 13 March 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

The relative price hasn't gone up that much. In 1959 a Les Paul Flame Top listed for about $375. That translates to $3070 in 2016 dollars. A 2017 Les Paul Standard HP has an MSRP of $3200. So the price isn't really that much higher if you compare likes. The same goes for cars or whatever else you want to compare. Excepting salaries, those haven't kept up unless you're a corporate CEO. In 1974 a starting salary for my job was $12K. That works out to about $61,500 in 2016. However starting salaries for the equivalent job now are around $45K. So the slippage isn't in prices, it's in your paycheck.

A fine point - very worthy of consideration. And the rich get richer. The ugly part is that we may be in for worse💩
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#36 User is offline   MichaelT 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:32 AM

View Postflyingarmadillo, on 13 March 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

The relative price hasn't gone up that much. In 1959 a Les Paul Flame Top listed for about $375. That translates to $3070 in 2016 dollars. A 2017 Les Paul Standard HP has an MSRP of $3200. So the price isn't really that much higher if you compare likes. The same goes for cars or whatever else you want to compare. Excepting salaries, those haven't kept up unless you're a corporate CEO. In 1974 a starting salary for my job was $12K. That works out to about $61,500 in 2016. However starting salaries for the equivalent job now are around $45K. So the slippage isn't in prices, it's in your paycheck.


I remember looking at a Les Paul in 1982 and it was $1000.00 used. I don't recall what year the Les Paul Custom was but it was out of my price range at the time. In 1984 I bought a Gibson "The V" used for $800.00 and that was a lot of money for a 19 year old kid. Everything is getting more expensive, especially cars, American and non-American. Guitars are the same. I could barely justify paying what I did for my 2017 Les Paul but I had the money and could afford it and paid cash. The world is so heavily revolving around credit and paying for things over time, they crank up the price because someone will get a loan or financing to buy it. I was asked what kind of financing I was going to be looking at when I got my LP a few weeks ago. My response was, "Cash in hand. I know you have X price on it. Will you take Z in cash?" We negotiated to what I felt was a fair price. I probably couldn't have done that if I had tried to finance it. I think it's the financing and all the available credit for those who worship at the altar of the Almighty FICO that's driving up prices, along with natural inflation and other associated costs. People can more easily pay for it if it's 250 a month for a year and not 3000 up front.
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#37 User is offline   jaxson50 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:30 AM

Premium price has to equate to a premium product. I will not comment on the quality of Gibson product being made today as I haven't bought a new guitar in years.
That being said, if you lay down 2 or 3 grand on a instrument it had better be really nice. The frets should not require dressing, the hardware should be done right, the wiring should not need anything and the dealer should make sure the setup is acceptable to the standards of the buyer. And that is the job of the buyer!Don't take anything without a final inspection.This is why I buy Toyotas and not Cadillacs.

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#38 User is offline   merciful-evans 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 01:47 PM

View Postzigzag, on 13 March 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

Could it be that as the quality of Squires and Epiphones approaches the quality of Fenders and Gibsons, the prices of all are going up accordingly. And not only is Chinese quality going up, but so are their wages, standard of living, and technologies.


Yes. I suppose they'll then do what they always do & move production somewhere else. India? Pakistan?
Hagstrom Deuce / Fylde Acoustic / Variax Standard / Gibson ES-339 / Gibson LP Less+ / PRS SE Custom24 / Hofner HCT-J17 / Camps Spanish / Jackson Soloist / Rickenbacker 650 /Squier Esprit
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Makita BO3710 Finishing Sander
Verdict 6" vernier scale calipers
Whittard of Chelsea Florence blue teapot
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Posted Image put the kettle on
I sometimes think; therefore I am intermittent
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#39 User is offline   american cheez 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 04:30 PM

although i haven't been able to find it in years, i saw a youtube video where henry j did an interview just before the raids. in it, he was asked how they came up with their pricing. he said that his team discovered that every time he raised prices, sales increased. so he just raised them until it reached its peak. any of you that think the cost of materials and labor at gibson is directly tied to their pricing is fooling themselves.

as for fender, i don't know what their deal is, but they are by far the worst. the ridiculous cost of a strat cannot be justified by any hokus-pokus one might conjur up. at least with gibson or prs, you have a much higher resale value, and far better longevity. if you buy an american std strat, brand new, you paid about $1700. try to sell it next year. good luck getting more than $800 for it.
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#40 User is offline   Retired 

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:04 PM

kidblast said:

1489432112[/url]' post='1841225']
The cost of living has reached ridiculous averages.
Aside from things like food, and guitars....... cars......
most folks are paying 150 to 200 dollars a month for FIOS/Cable TV & internet access on average... If I told my dad, 35/40 years ago that we'd be paying 200+ a month for this stuff in 2017, he'd look at me like I lost my mind.
Cell phone bills for "fammily plans" are in the same ball park... You can switch providers until the cows come home but they are all eventually going to snare you in the same trap once the "new customer incentives run their course in a year or
funny thing is, your income bumps do not match to increases in everything you're working to pay for.....
America....... -- it's a place gone crazy... so many things broken...


True! Looking back at the prices we paid as kids and what our parents paid were high in relative nature of what they got as wages. You had to save. As a kid, a Gibson was way out of the ballpark for me to get. Couldn't afford one. Cost of living has gone up sky high since then. Big business is all about the almighty dollar and corporate greed. It's not enough for CEO's to be millionaires anymore, its billions there after. Shipping factories oversees, cheap labor hiding their money in foreign banks for tax breaks. It's about the rich getting richer. When I got married, you could buy a Big Mack, fries and drink for a dollar. Went to Hawaii on our honeymoon the next day and paid $5.00 for the same thing. Took marketing in college at UNO and I was shocked how these people's minds work. They don't give a dang about the consumer. It's all about profit. Cheaper food substitutes cheaper materials, whatever it takes to produce a cheaper product at a higher consumer price. Almost painted a house for contractor once, huge plantation type house. Figured it would take me almost a month with all what they wanted me to do. Tons of windows. Happened to talk to the owner first and she wanted me to paint this whole house with a brush, not my sprayer. Asked her what they bid it for and she told me like $6,000.00. Ed & Brian we're going to pocket the cash and pay me $600.00. So I quit them and they had to paint it. Just crooks they were.
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