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What Say You? Are American (made) products pricing themselves out of Business?


charlie brown

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Because it isn't a Gibson. The price of the materials is overhead to the companies that make them. If Epiphone could charge and get what Gibson gets, they would.

 

rct

 

Indeed. Which is to say: if Gibson could charge for an Epiphone what they charge for a Gibson, they would. But the point is that it is the brand and not the materials which count for a significant proportion of the price. There are the US vs Chinese labour costs as well, of course. But fish glue is fish glue. We'll just pay more for Gibson fish glue than for Epiphone fish glue.

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[laugh] Yep! And did he perhaps remove the finish even from this rift-sawn neck whichs blank probably costs twice the money of a quartersawn and thus perhaps three times that of a quick, cheap and fast flat-sawn one? Funny what people do for money... :o

 

 

But will the rift-sawn neck sound 3 times better and last 3 times longer? It doesn't involve any fish glue at all, so I'm still not convinced of its quality.

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But the point is that it is the brand and not the materials which count for a significant proportion of the price. There are the US vs Chinese labour costs as well, of course.

 

Labor and materials, "factory overhead", are what makes the guitar cost. Brand name is not on any accounting sheet. Yet.

 

rct

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Indeed. Which is to say: if Gibson could charge for an Epiphone what they charge for a Gibson, they would. But the point is that it is the brand and not the materials which count for a significant proportion of the price. There are the US vs Chinese labour costs as well, of course. But fish glue is fish glue. We'll just pay more for Gibson fish glue than for Epiphone fish glue.

Be careful - folks around some parts of the forum get plenty offended about references to fish (oil, glue, scales, tacos)😖

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The relative price hasn't gone up that much. In 1959 a Les Paul Flame Top listed for about $375. That translates to $3070 in 2016 dollars. A 2017 Les Paul Standard HP has an MSRP of $3200. So the price isn't really that much higher if you compare likes. The same goes for cars or whatever else you want to compare. Excepting salaries, those haven't kept up unless you're a corporate CEO. In 1974 a starting salary for my job was $12K. That works out to about $61,500 in 2016. However starting salaries for the equivalent job now are around $45K. So the slippage isn't in prices, it's in your paycheck.

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Could it be that as the quality of Squires and Epiphones approaches the quality of Fenders and Gibsons, the prices of all are going up accordingly. And not only is Chinese quality going up, but so are their wages, standard of living, and technologies.

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Kid, I dropped cable. I have an HD antenna, I get quite a bit of channels being under 10 miles outside downtown Chicago. I pay 7 a month for Netflix and 12 for Hulu and about $40 for internet.

 

I found a cell phone company that is $25 bucks a month per line. You buy the phones outright and get unlimited calls text and 1 gb of data (which for me is plenty as I'm mostly on wifi anyway.)

 

There are deals out there and ways to catch live sports by subscribing to services just for that or watching the game at the local watering hole.

 

 

agree! they're are ways to avoid this. We're considering doing just this. had enough..

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The relative price hasn't gone up that much. In 1959 a Les Paul Flame Top listed for about $375. That translates to $3070 in 2016 dollars. A 2017 Les Paul Standard HP has an MSRP of $3200. So the price isn't really that much higher if you compare likes. The same goes for cars or whatever else you want to compare. Excepting salaries, those haven't kept up unless you're a corporate CEO. In 1974 a starting salary for my job was $12K. That works out to about $61,500 in 2016. However starting salaries for the equivalent job now are around $45K. So the slippage isn't in prices, it's in your paycheck.

A fine point - very worthy of consideration. And the rich get richer. The ugly part is that we may be in for worse💩

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The relative price hasn't gone up that much. In 1959 a Les Paul Flame Top listed for about $375. That translates to $3070 in 2016 dollars. A 2017 Les Paul Standard HP has an MSRP of $3200. So the price isn't really that much higher if you compare likes. The same goes for cars or whatever else you want to compare. Excepting salaries, those haven't kept up unless you're a corporate CEO. In 1974 a starting salary for my job was $12K. That works out to about $61,500 in 2016. However starting salaries for the equivalent job now are around $45K. So the slippage isn't in prices, it's in your paycheck.

 

I remember looking at a Les Paul in 1982 and it was $1000.00 used. I don't recall what year the Les Paul Custom was but it was out of my price range at the time. In 1984 I bought a Gibson "The V" used for $800.00 and that was a lot of money for a 19 year old kid. Everything is getting more expensive, especially cars, American and non-American. Guitars are the same. I could barely justify paying what I did for my 2017 Les Paul but I had the money and could afford it and paid cash. The world is so heavily revolving around credit and paying for things over time, they crank up the price because someone will get a loan or financing to buy it. I was asked what kind of financing I was going to be looking at when I got my LP a few weeks ago. My response was, "Cash in hand. I know you have X price on it. Will you take Z in cash?" We negotiated to what I felt was a fair price. I probably couldn't have done that if I had tried to finance it. I think it's the financing and all the available credit for those who worship at the altar of the Almighty FICO that's driving up prices, along with natural inflation and other associated costs. People can more easily pay for it if it's 250 a month for a year and not 3000 up front.

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Premium price has to equate to a premium product. I will not comment on the quality of Gibson product being made today as I haven't bought a new guitar in years.

That being said, if you lay down 2 or 3 grand on a instrument it had better be really nice. The frets should not require dressing, the hardware should be done right, the wiring should not need anything and the dealer should make sure the setup is acceptable to the standards of the buyer. And that is the job of the buyer!Don't take anything without a final inspection.This is why I buy Toyotas and not Cadillacs.

 

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Could it be that as the quality of Squires and Epiphones approaches the quality of Fenders and Gibsons, the prices of all are going up accordingly. And not only is Chinese quality going up, but so are their wages, standard of living, and technologies.

 

Yes. I suppose they'll then do what they always do & move production somewhere else. India? Pakistan?

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although i haven't been able to find it in years, i saw a youtube video where henry j did an interview just before the raids. in it, he was asked how they came up with their pricing. he said that his team discovered that every time he raised prices, sales increased. so he just raised them until it reached its peak. any of you that think the cost of materials and labor at gibson is directly tied to their pricing is fooling themselves.

 

as for fender, i don't know what their deal is, but they are by far the worst. the ridiculous cost of a strat cannot be justified by any hokus-pokus one might conjur up. at least with gibson or prs, you have a much higher resale value, and far better longevity. if you buy an american std strat, brand new, you paid about $1700. try to sell it next year. good luck getting more than $800 for it.

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1489432112[/url]' post='1841225']

The cost of living has reached ridiculous averages.

Aside from things like food, and guitars....... cars......

most folks are paying 150 to 200 dollars a month for FIOS/Cable TV & internet access on average... If I told my dad, 35/40 years ago that we'd be paying 200+ a month for this stuff in 2017, he'd look at me like I lost my mind.

Cell phone bills for "fammily plans" are in the same ball park... You can switch providers until the cows come home but they are all eventually going to snare you in the same trap once the "new customer incentives run their course in a year or

funny thing is, your income bumps do not match to increases in everything you're working to pay for.....

America....... -- it's a place gone crazy... so many things broken...

 

True! Looking back at the prices we paid as kids and what our parents paid were high in relative nature of what they got as wages. You had to save. As a kid, a Gibson was way out of the ballpark for me to get. Couldn't afford one. Cost of living has gone up sky high since then. Big business is all about the almighty dollar and corporate greed. It's not enough for CEO's to be millionaires anymore, its billions there after. Shipping factories oversees, cheap labor hiding their money in foreign banks for tax breaks. It's about the rich getting richer. When I got married, you could buy a Big Mack, fries and drink for a dollar. Went to Hawaii on our honeymoon the next day and paid $5.00 for the same thing. Took marketing in college at UNO and I was shocked how these people's minds work. They don't give a dang about the consumer. It's all about profit. Cheaper food substitutes cheaper materials, whatever it takes to produce a cheaper product at a higher consumer price. Almost painted a house for contractor once, huge plantation type house. Figured it would take me almost a month with all what they wanted me to do. Tons of windows. Happened to talk to the owner first and she wanted me to paint this whole house with a brush, not my sprayer. Asked her what they bid it for and she told me like $6,000.00. Ed & Brian we're going to pocket the cash and pay me $600.00. So I quit them and they had to paint it. Just crooks they were.

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As new guitar prices have risen.... Used and vintage guitar prices have decreased dramatically..... That's the direction I've been going over the last year... Plus I have purchased enough new Gibson's over the last three years for four guitar players... Time to save some older Gibson's

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qCeDRLe0a4&t=280s

I watched this yesterday and couldn't believe the price. All they've really added is a moulding on the back and are charging a £1000 for it.

It's a USA guitar that costs more than a custom shop. It's £3299 ($4022) which is just greedy. I also watched a video from the Geneva car show and the amount of cars that are over a million is unbelievable. The worst thing is that most are sold before they're even made. Yet us people at the bottom are being taxed higher and higher all the time. I also read yesterday about young schoolgirls not being able to afford tampons. The world is going mad.

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1489576301[/url]' post='1841678']

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qCeDRLe0a4&t=280s

I watched this yesterday and couldn't believe the price. All they've really added is a moulding on the back and are charging a £1000 for it.

It's a USA guitar that costs more than a custom shop. It's £3299 ($4022) which is just greedy. I also watched a video from the Geneva car show and the amount of cars that are over a million is unbelievable. The worst thing is that most are sold before they're even made. Yet us people at the bottom are being taxed higher and higher all the time. I also read yesterday about young schoolgirls not being able to afford tampons. The world is going mad.

 

How much of the price is import taxes? I know that Australia adds a 100% tax on imported goods. Gibson has no power over tariffs and import taxes.

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I rank on Gibson some but I think they're doing a good job of maintaining the basic model that they're building the stuff in the US and only automating what's reasonable but still doing all the critical stuff by hand. And as long as they can still do that they're maintaining the long term value of the company.

 

I also think they're fine, as far as trying to expand the line up and down the price scale at the same time. I mean, you can't introduce a bunch of faded, one knobbed bottom end guitars without introducing some blinged out ya-ti-da models for the more conspicuous consumers.

 

My main complaint would be that they "have a lot of dumb ideas."

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US/European companies have to charge more, not just for the extra labour costs but they have to project their products as more upmarket and exclusive. They simply can not compete with the Asian manufacturers at the lower end of the market. You can not sell out your 'high end' perception and history it's probably the most valuable asset that those companies have.

 

 

Ian

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As far as Gibson goes, the higher prices seem to be in the fancy and signature stuff.

 

The standard stuff has stayed in the same price range and some stuff is way cheaper.

 

For example, in 1959 a Les Paul standard was $295. Adjusted for inflation $295 today is $2469, and new standard today is about $2000 I believe - so the basic model is actually cheaper today than it was in 1959!

 

Factor in lower priced models like the Tribute series at $900 (that's $107.51 in 1959 dollars btw) and it seems to me you have one heck of a good deal on an American made guitar.

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