Rabs Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/read/gibson-confirms-exclusive-rights-to-trademarked-guitar-designs-in-legal-dispute-with-jhs/022100 Gibson has announced that it has successfully confirmed the exclusive rights to various trademarked body and headstock designs. The MI manufacturer now has exclusive rights to the design of its iconic ES, SG, Flying V and Explorer guitar models. The news comes as a result of a legal dispute and settlement with John Hornby Skewes and Co. (JHS). As part of the agreement, JHS acknowledges Gibson’s exclusive rights to these products and designs after being sued for trademark While other specific terms of the agreement are confidential, Gibson has said it is “pleased with the result”. Last week, Law360 reported on the first day of the trial in downtown Los Angeles, where Gibson’s attorney Kurt Schuettinger of Bates & Bates LLC gave an opening statement accusing JHS of “knowingly and internationally infringing six trademarks” and “lying to Gibson about when it started selling the alleged copies”. Brent Davis of Scarinci and Hollenbecl LLC, representing JHS, told the jury that many companies have used the allegedly unique trademarked guitar shapes over the decades — and that guitar customers know to look at the brand name on the headstock of a guitar to know who made it and not rely just on its shape. “The problem here is that these outlines of body shapes and headstocks of guitars have been used by so many different companies for the last half century that they don’t belong to anyone. They’re just standard shapes used by the industry,” he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I think Gibson would do better to use it's resources to fight the Chibson problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 I wonder if this will effect Chapman guitars.. He has a V and Explorer type shape.. I wonder what the exact rule is on how similar the shape can be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I think Gibson would do better to use it's resources to fight the Chibson problem. my thoughts exactly!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 “The problem here is that these outlines of body shapes and headstocks of guitars have been used by so many different companies for the last half century that they don’t belong to anyone. They’re just standard shapes used by the industry,” he said. What a crock!!! Is anyone else shocked by the fact that John Hornby Skewes still exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 it's ridiculous to make the statement that these shapes have become industry standard on the simple merit that everyone has been stealing them for decades. slap this man.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 I think Gibson would do better to use it's resources to fight the Chibson problem. Well im thinking that one win will mean more... maybe that's why they are doing it? Setting legal precedent with a case they knew they would more than likely win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 The problem is that the Chinese guys don't follow the law. They are already breaking the law by using the Gibson brand name, logo, Les Paul trademarks, etc Anyone else notice that the Les Paul shape was not included in the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/read/gibson-confirms-exclusive-rights-to-trademarked-guitar-designs-in-legal-dispute-with-jhs/022100 Gibson has announced that it has successfully confirmed the exclusive rights to various trademarked body and headstock designs. The MI manufacturer now has exclusive rights to the design of its iconic ES, SG, Flying V and Explorer guitar models. The news comes as a result of a legal dispute and settlement with John Hornby Skewes and Co. (JHS). As part of the agreement, JHS acknowledges Gibson’s exclusive rights to these products and designs after being sued for trademark While other specific terms of the agreement are confidential, Gibson has said it is “pleased with the result”. Last week, Law360 reported on the first day of the trial in downtown Los Angeles, where Gibson’s attorney Kurt Schuettinger of Bates & Bates LLC gave an opening statement accusing JHS of “knowingly and internationally infringing six trademarks” and “lying to Gibson about when it started selling the alleged copies”. Brent Davis of Scarinci and Hollenbecl LLC, representing JHS, told the jury that many companies have used the allegedly unique trademarked guitar shapes over the decades — and that guitar customers know to look at the brand name on the headstock of a guitar to know who made it and not rely just on its shape. “The problem here is that these outlines of body shapes and headstocks of guitars have been used by so many different companies for the last half century that they don’t belong to anyone. They’re just standard shapes used by the industry,” he said. But, not the "Les Paul" single and double cutaway body shapes?? Or, were those already addressed, due to PRS copies? :unsure: Wonder what "Fender" did, or is doing (or not) about all the Strat and Tele ripoff designs?! Edit: Sorry, Dub...you posted (basically) the same question, about Les Paul designs, while I was wondering, and writing, the same thing. LOL CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 . Gibson did not apply for trademark registration of the Les Paul until 1987, when imitations of the instrument’s shape and style were already commonplace. The company obtained a trademark for the Les Paul guitar shape, Trademark Registration No. 1,782,606, in July 1993. (Source) Then - Here's the story on the Nov 2000 court case Gibson vs PRS over single cut body shape - https://www.law360.com/articles/6887/supreme-ct-passes-on-guitar-trademark-case The bottom line - The law says to win a trademark case you have to show a likelihood of confusion and Gibson was forced to concede that no one would ever be confused at the point of sale. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 . ... The bottom line - The law says to win a trademark case you have to show a likelihood of confusion and Gibson was forced to concede that no one would ever be confused at the point of sale. . Can confirm this from here. I never went astray to buying a PRS, neither unwittingly nor arbitrarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
american cheez Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I think Gibson would do better to use it's resources to fight the Chibson problem. this, all day long it's ridiculous to make the statement that these shapes have become industry standard on the simple merit that everyone has been stealing them for decades. slap this man.. i disagree. the law has precedent of gibson ignoring the problem for decades. in any other industry, that would mean they lost their case. happens every day, it's not unusual at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 What a crock!!! Is anyone else shocked by the fact that John Hornby Skewes still exists? Ha ha....had to plus you for that one. JHS is a big UK distributor who have always imported reproductions/copies of classic designs and plenty more 'student' instruments and educational musical materials. I am surprised there is still a company under that name but there are always brands that need distribution in the UK - http://www.jhs.co.uk/brands If you do go to the page, look at the 'Marquee Club' electric guitars! Ha!... As to copyright of designs, didn't both Steinberger and Fender (to name 2) take it to court in Japan several times in the last century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Can confirm this from here. I never went astray to buying a PRS, neither unwittingly nor arbitrarily. I never confused a JHS for a Gibson either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Ha ha....had to plus you for that one. JHS is a big UK distributor who have always imported reproductions/copies of classic designs and plenty more 'student' instruments and educational musical materials. I am surprised there is still a company under that name but there are always brands that need distribution in the UK - http://www.jhs.co.uk/brands If you do go to the page, look at the 'Marquee Club' electric guitars! Ha!... As to copyright of designs, didn't both Steinberger and Fender (to name 2) take it to court in Japan several times in the last century? Pardon my ignorance John. As a fuzz-loving yank I have only ever heard of the JHS Zonk Machine, Shatterbox, and Treble Booster. I didn't know they did anything other than make some pedals in the 60s, and certainly didn't expect they'd still be in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Pardon my ignorance John. As a fuzz-loving yank I have only ever heard of the JHS Zonk Machine, Shatterbox, and Treble Booster. I didn't know they did anything other than make some pedals in the 60s, and certainly didn't expect they'd still be in business. My A-B box is fine piece of mid-1990s JHS engineering. Cheap as chips, makes a big clunk, but works well enough. Are they really making those boutique fuzz boxes, though? I thought that was some American company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Pardon my ignorance John. As a fuzz-loving yank I have only ever heard of the JHS Zonk Machine, Shatterbox, and Treble Booster. I didn't know they did anything other than make some pedals in the 60s, and certainly didn't expect they'd still be in business. Your comment made me smile.....let's just say JHS have (or used to have) a bit of a 'mixed' rep over here, among some music shops...allegedly Now I am wondering which particular guitars they were sued over.... :-k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 My A-B box is fine piece of mid-1990s JHS engineering. Cheap as chips, makes a big clunk, but works well enough. Are they really making those boutique fuzz boxes, though? I thought that was some American company. John Hornby Skewes made some pedals in the 60-70s. Their Zonk Machine (based on the MKI Tone Bender which was based on the Maestro FZ-1) was one of the VERY earliest British fuzz pedals and is now highly sought after. They also made a treble Booster (like a silicon transistor-based copy of the Rangemaster) which was used by Ritchie Blackmore and now also highly sought after The American boutique pedal company JHS is totally unaffiliated as far as I know Your comment made me smile.....let's just say JHS have (or used to have) a bit of a 'mixed' rep over here, among some music shops...allegedly I'm totally oblivious! Though I have heard horror stories about "Music Ground", and I have personally seen them list a fake Tone Bender MKI multiple times. Apparently they have quite a reputation for selling fake and stolen gear. Now it seems that they're running "British Pedal Company", which is another monumental turd/scam. Will you go down there and slap these people for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StRanger7032 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I wonder if this will effect Chapman guitars.. He has a V and Explorer type shape.. I wonder what the exact rule is on how similar the shape can be? Rob Chapman actually addressed this question in one of the videos involving the design of the Ghost Fret, which is the Explorer shape. They were being very careful to alter the shape just enough so it didn't infringe on Gibson's design. It looks like they did the same with the new V. I have no problem with Gibson defending their designs, as long as they keep it reasonable and only go after the ones that are near exact copies. Fender seems to have given up long ago on this battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevDavidLee Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 The American boutique pedal company JHS is totally unaffiliated as far as I know YOU ARE CORRECT ON THAT POINT COMPLETELY! I WILL VOUCH FOR JOSH SCOTT ALL DAY LONG! THEY ARE A GREAT REPUTABLE COMPANY THAT MAKE KILLER PEDALS! [thumbup] [thumbup] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 . Fender seems to have given up long ago on this battle. Most of us thought Gibson had too. Maybe Rickenbacker should now sue everybody that uses a magnetic pickup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 YOU ARE CORRECT ON THAT POINT COMPLETELY! I WILL VOUCH FOR JOSH SCOTT ALL DAY LONG! THEY ARE A GREAT REPUTABLE COMPANY THAT MAKE KILLER PEDALS! [thumbup] [thumbup] I'm not a big fan personally but no pedal builders are! As always, glad you're diggin em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 .......Though I have heard horror stories about "Music Ground", and I have personally seen them list a fake Tone Bender MKI multiple times. Apparently they have quite a reputation for selling fake and stolen gear. Now it seems that they're running "British Pedal Company", which is another monumental turd/scam. Will you go down there and slap these people for me? - They (British Pedal Co) also have 2 versions of the Zonk machine. Music Ground have been slapped by the English legal system more than once; they just get fined, pay it, regroup/rename and carry on. - I must emphasise that JHS (the UK company) is and always has been completely above board in that respect. My comment was made because I worked in a well-known music shop in the late 80s and the manager was forever tearing his hair out over his JHS orders; they distributed many lines that he would regularly order and (much more often than not) there was some sort of SNAFU. He wasn't the only one so JHS did get a bit of a rep. However I feel sure they must have restructured the whole operation by now as they have not only survived but seem to be prospering...apart from being sued by the World's most famous guitar company! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinch Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, I think it's preposterous to regulate how others cut their slabs of wood. On the other hand, Gibson DID come up with the designs. Would someone else have dreamed up the Flying V shape, had Gibson not done it first (?)? I'm not sure, tbh. If I came up with something as unreasonable as the V (I love the shape, but think about it. One day someone goes, oh, I know - let's make a guitar that you have to lodge between your legs to play sitting down! You'd go, ummmm... no), I'd want exclusive rights, too. No, wait - if I made a good living anyway I probably would give a s--t, but each to their own. As long as they're reasonable about it, I guess it's fair. Funny, though, when you think about all the Strat copies out there, just like you guys said. I'd like to think they sell enough (reasonably priced) MIM Strats to not care... but it's a business, so I doubt that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Gibson ignored its own V design for years, judging it too extreme. Ditto (for even longer) the Explorer. The reason given here as to why they couldn't copyright the LP design is interesting. I realize that a lot of the design was down to Ted McCarty, but Les Paul was also surely involved. Not sure they could ever have copyrighted his input anyhow, seeing as he was not a Gibson employee. Do they seriously want to limit the supply of classic designs they have generated to just Gibson and Epiphone products? And after so many years of copies? I think anybody in R&D at Gibson should be renegotiating their contracts very hard now: if their IP is going to become so exclusive to the one corporation, they'd best have a very good and protected salary on the table, plus a golden parachute. Imagine if Seth Lover had been prevented from making humbuckers for anybody but Gibson. If you can't transfer your key skills as a designer to any other company, the ties that bind had better be very, very attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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