sbpark Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Saw that a dealer was selling their floor models and had several available. These guitars still came with the factory warranty. Called them directly and chatted for a bit, telling them that I've been on the hunt for a J45 but still haven't found the right one. Talked about characteristics I liked in some I've played and what I didnt like. They had something like 9 Standards in stock, which is what I originally called about. Asked if they could play them and pick the one they thought would meet my criteria best and was told they couldn't because they were at their warehouse, and didnt have the time or staff to compare them, but they had a few of the 2016 and 2017 Vintage models in the shop. Was told based on our conversation he was confident he'd pick a great one. I agreed and negotiated a great deal. Guitar arrived a few days later, waited over night to open it to let it acclimate, and have to say I was disappointed. First off, the finish is strange. I know they are trying to make these look aged, but not relic them, but it looks like someone took a fine Scotchbrite pad to the guitar, as you can see subtle lines in the finish that were put there during the "knock-down" process when they took of the shine. To compare, I have a Waterloo WL-14 that has an aged, Satin finish on the guitars top, and it looks old, but not artificially like the finish on the J45 Vintage. The aged, yellowed binding also looked strange. Had the guitar side by side with my '12 AJ, and the binding in the AJ looks off-white, while the binding on the J45 Vintage looked almost a bright yellow and out of place. Obviously these are all aesthetics and are subjective. Another fit and finish thing that bugged me was the nut. For a guitar that has a street price of $4,000 it has one of the worst cut nuts I've ever seen. Nut slots were cut horribly and too low, and the excess material just left there like an afterthought. C'mon Gibson! You spend the time to Plek these guitars and then skimp on the nut? makes zero sense. I've seen Yamahas that cost less than 10% of this guitar with a better cut nut from the factory. The guitar also had very high action (8/64" on the low E and 6/64" on the high E), but also had a ton of relief on the neck. Tried to adjust the truss rod and it was VERY hard to turn. Didn't want to risk it after 1/8 of a turn or so, so I just left it as it. Plenty of saddle left though to lower the action if needed after the relief was adjusted, but I again, didnt want to risk cranking on that thing. The neck angle was perfect. The case was sweet though. Nicer, upgraded latches than what comes on the standard Gibson cases, pink velvet/velour lined, brown Tolex. Classy for sure. Wouldn't mind scoring one of those for my AJ. As far as the sound this particular example was just OK. Nothing spectacular or mind-blowing, and I've played Standard models that were better (again, subjective!). Very even sounding guitar across the strings, but no balls or growl that i like and have found in a few J45's I've tried. It was a brighter sounding J45 than I expected, and I thought my AJ was bright! I played my Waterloo which is also a bright guitar, but that little Waterloo had more growl and balls than this particular J45. Not saying that the J45 sounded bad, because to someone else it may be the holy grail, but for me it wasn't what I was hoping for. I've played other J45's (TV, Standard, etc) that you can feel them vibrate in your chest and belly when you play them. Not the case with this one. One thing I will say though that I noticed, despite being a bright sounding J45, it seemed to have more headroom than many of the J45's I played. With some newer J45's you hit them harder and they wont give you any more and just compress and shut down, but this guitar just had more and would take heavy strumming better. My policy has always been play acoustics in person before you buy, but thought I might get lucky and the negotiated price was killer, but in the end it went back. Dealer didn't as any questions and sent a return label immediately and there were no hard feelings and have to say they were great to deal with. Bummed they didn't have the time or staff though to go through the Standards they had in stock. Live and learn I guess and I'll just keep waiting for the day that the right one crosses my path! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 .....to someone else it may be the holy grail, but for me it wasn't what I was hoping for. That pretty much sums it up. Sorry to hear you took another "swing and a miss" with this one. You have specific criteria for a guitar you'll keep, and that's a good thing........you know what you want and I do hope you find it someday and let us all know! I'm beginning to think that perhaps left handed guitars are given more attention, being built in much fewer numbers. While not all are my tonal choice, every one I've played was pretty darn good off the wall. I have learned that I am never happy with a factory setup on Gibson or anyone other build, so for me, there's always the obligatory rod/nut/saddle tweaking to optimize things for my playing. But think about it........ To glue up the braces on a southpaw top the builder must pay more attention, having to do the task as a mirror image of what he/she has done a thousand times the other way. The saddle and bridge must be cut backwards, same for the nut. The builder(s) must focus a bit more to reverse the instrument.........might be something to it........just saying'....... On the subject of quality of workmanship, I say it's sad to see a nut looking like that.......ought not to be that way......shouldn't get past a dealer like that. But at the same time I note that we are all human, and Gibson acoustic guitars are built with a lot of human manual input........mistakes will be made. As for the sticky t-rod nut......the "sticky" is friction between the nut and the retainer plate it rests on. I'd bet loosing the nut and shooting a little graphite on the retainer plate would relieve said friction and the rod would function very nicely. Of course it would be nice if the factory did this during assembly, but alas, it's a small detail. The hunt is still on then............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djw171 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 That cannot be the original nut!! Is it really? You do not state the store, but they sound large enough with the inventory you state. For them to 'pick' that particular guitar out with that nut and believe it was a great one, says to me either they didn't give a rats *** once they had your money or they just didn't look it over or know what to look for. That's just terrible. I do not fully recall all your posts SB but I do recall you keep looking for a J45. I would have thought that the J45 Vintage has a different tone to a Standard. I've never played one, but given the top is thermally aged adirondack red spruce one would think it's voice differently. Have you expanded to Southern Jumbos at all? Hope you find the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafy31 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Indeed ugly nut !!! Coming from factory the dents depth should be about the size of the low E thickness, but they're way deeper, as if they had been sanded deeper down to lower the action. Was the setup and build initially that bad that it required such a rework? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I've been really happy with my 2007 J-45 True Vintage (Sitka top). Perhaps a used one that has been well cared for and opened up. I've also wondered what the late '90s to say 2003 J-45s sound like. This was before True Vintage and Standard days. They have the block Gibson gold decal and orange label inside. There is a fellow in my area that plays one in a trio and it sounds fantastic. so maybe the used market will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Sorry it didn't work out. Is it the image and look more than the tone that keeps pulling you back to Gibby slopes? Perhaps more than the tone? (I am not being judgmental of course; my being judgmental on anyone's guitar swapping habits would be .... rich). If so, might you consider forgetting the Gibby slopes, and look at other slopes, like the Santa Cruz Vintage Southerner, or a Fairbanks, or even a Larrivee L shape? I love my Gibby slope, but you seem to never be satisfied with the actual tone of them. Of course quality control issues like the nut dont help, but if the guitar sounds awesome I would work around that, I might work around that. I bought back my J50 a little while back - one that I bought in 2011 or 12. I took it to Brothers Music in Wind Gap PA, and they did nut work, saddle work, fret work... a whole mess of things that perfected that guitar for me. A place like that is worth their weight in gold. Also, a red spruce top might very well take longer to "open up" than sitka, and might sound stiffer at first - you might need patience with a red spruce top. Down the road though.... they might be magical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 With mine, the only complaint I had was with the case in which it came and none at all with the instrument. You never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 That cannot be the original nut!! Is it really? You do not state the store, but they sound large enough with the inventory you state. For them to 'pick' that particular guitar out with that nut and believe it was a great one, says to me either they didn't give a rats *** once they had your money or they just didn't look it over or know what to look for. That's just terrible. I do not fully recall all your posts SB but I do recall you keep looking for a J45. I would have thought that the J45 Vintage has a different tone to a Standard. I've never played one, but given the top is thermally aged adirondack red spruce one would think it's voice differently. Have you expanded to Southern Jumbos at all? Hope you find the one. Yep, I didnt list the shop because I didnt want it to turn into a post about bashing the dealer. To answer your other question, I've played a few SJ's at a local 5 Star dealer a few months back. If an SJ came my way that sounded great I'd have no problem with one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 Sorry it didn't work out. Is it the image and look more than the tone that keeps pulling you back to Gibby slopes? Perhaps more than the tone? (I am not being judgmental of course; my being judgmental on anyone's guitar swapping habits would be .... rich). If so, might you consider forgetting the Gibby slopes, and look at other slopes, like the Santa Cruz Vintage Southerner, or a Fairbanks, or even a Larrivee L shape? I love my Gibby slope, but you seem to never be satisfied with the actual tone of them. Of course quality control issues like the nut dont help, but if the guitar sounds awesome I would work around that, I might work around that. I bought back my J50 a little while back - one that I bought in 2011 or 12. I took it to Brothers Music in Wind Gap PA, and they did nut work, saddle work, fret work... a whole mess of things that perfected that guitar for me. A place like that is worth their weight in gold. Also, a red spruce top might very well take longer to "open up" than sitka, and might sound stiffer at first - you might need patience with a red spruce top. Down the road though.... they might be magical. Well, I do own an AJ and also have played quite a few "modern" J45's and the good ones do exist out there! Sure, the aesthetics of the slope shoulders is something I really like, but it's not the only reason I want one. In addition to my AJ, which is my #1, I also have an HD-28, 000-15M and a Waterloo WL-14. All exceptional examples of their respective model, and they all fit a sound and purpose really well. A good sounding J45 seems to fit a hole that those other guitar can come close to filling, but not really. The HD-28 and the Aj are big sounding guitars, classic dread sounds, big, bold, in your face, sometimes a bit much for a solo singer/songwriter who doesn't have a big, loud singing voice. The 000-15M is mellow, warm, rounded and sweet. The WL-14 is honky, growly, a touch boxy but also a joy to play and has it's place for sure. A nice J45 fits kind of right in the middle, but with it's own thing going. A good one has the growl, but a bigger (and different) sound than the WL-14, more of a mid-range bump for single note embellishments and accents, but sits back a little more than a big Martin dread and does better with the singer/songwriter's voice. Makes sense why I'd like to find a good J45?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Everything I have heard about the SCVS is that it is sweet - not loud... None around me to try... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriv58 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Don't feel bad about returning the guitar- had i been able to try mine first, i doubt that i would have purchased it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 Don't feel bad about returning the guitar- had i been able to try mine first, i doubt that i would have purchased it. That's pretty much how I approached it. And I told them if it wasn't what I was looking for I'd be sending it back, and I'm picky. They were cool with that. Funny thing, when I called in the get an RMA# and return label the associate who had been helping me was off that day. I told the guy I was speaking with about being told they were too busy to go to the warehouse and play the Standards they had and pick out on that they thought matched my criteria. He said if I wanted, once the Vintage arrived back in their hands he'd go through the Standards and pick one. I said I appreciated the offer, but I didn't have much confidence given the way this one was, and being told it wasn't possible before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 Everything I have heard about the SCVS is that it is sweet - not loud... None around me to try... I've played them at Gryphon. Great sound, but they sound like a Santa Cruz, not a Gibson! I will say after purchasing this little Waterloo recently, I am spoiled. never had a new guitar arrive with nothing wrong with it. Set up perfect, nut cut properly, fit and finish spotless, etc. Too bad I'm not huge into the more modern sound that the Collings guitars have, but this little Waterloo is incredible. Guitar almost seems to have it's own built-in reverb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Paul Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 The Santa Cruz Vintage Southerner appears to be a twin of the J45. Given their similarity in appearance the difference in sound is remarkable. The VS is indeed much quieter and has a lush modern sound, not at all similar to the mid range fundamental bark of my old J45 which I find to be closely replicated by the J45 Vintage. If there is any sonic similarity between the VS and the J45 family it would be with the custom rosewood J45. I love both guitars but they are very different. sunburst (1 of 1) by Westcliffe Slim, on Flickr PS every time I see a photo of this J45 I am reminded how much I hate those bridge pins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I could count the number of people I would trust to pick out a guitar for me on one hand and would still have fingers left over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 I could count the number of people I would trust to pick out a guitar for me on one hand and would still have fingers left over. Yep, I consider it a lesson learned, but hey, it didnt cost me anything. I tried. I mean seriously, all the guy had to do was play a few of them and pick the one that had the biggest growl and low end and had a playable set-up. After playing the guitar I know there's no way he played it beforehand, and if he did that meant to me he didnt give a crap about what he sent me. Their loss, and money back into my account! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I wonder whether you'd be happier with a J45 with some age on it? My '67 is so woody and dry and open sounding, just a glorious J45. I also owned a '97 "Early" J45 about 10yrs back which was the lightest and sweetest sounding non-vintage J45 I've ever played. I sold it to a forum member in the end who bought it for his nephew in Ireland, still being played I gather. Well worth seeking out one of those if you can find one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Any wonder they're getting so expensive It's to cover the cost of all the postage 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nid2007 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 If you can find one nearby, I recommend checking out a Huss and Dalton Crossroads DS. I've had a lot of Short scale slopes that I liked , and the Huss has been my favorite. Worth checking out if you can find one nearby. Priced competitively with the Gibson Vintage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Doesn't the pleck machine do the setup? JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I could count the number of people I would trust to pick out a guitar for me on one hand and would still have fingers left over. That one's almost worth a tattoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Doesn't the pleck machine do the setup? JC Juan, I suspect you're being sarcastic...lol.......I've got three Gibsons that had the plek system applied to them and while all played well when I got them, they were all much better after having a setup done. On the true vintage lines----who the hell knows? Every guitar is different. I like my J45TV better than the Standard J45 I had. Not because it's made better or necessarily looks better, but because I really like the feel of the neck and overall the guitar is very comfortable for me. I bought it "used," so maybe the first owner thought is was a pain-in-the-butt to play, or too quiet, too loud, too high pitched, and so on........ I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the dude or dudette who currently has my old Standard thinks it's also a "killer" guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 Juan, I suspect you're being sarcastic...lol.......I've got three Gibsons that had the plek system applied to them and while all played well when I got them, they were all much better after having a setup done. On the true vintage lines----who the hell knows? Every guitar is different. I like my J45TV better than the Standard J45 I had. Not because it's made better or necessarily looks better, but because I really like the feel of the neck and overall the guitar is very comfortable for me. I bought it "used," so maybe the first owner thought is was a pain-in-the-butt to play, or too quiet, too loud, too high pitched, and so on........ I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the dude or dudette who currently has my old Standard thinks it's also a "killer" guitar. This, exactly. And that's pretty much what I told the salesperson I spoke to regarding returning the guitar. Setup, nut, etc. aside, regarding the sound of the guitar, that's totally subjective. If they set that guitar up properly there's no denying that the next guy who comes along will think it's the best sounding guitar he's ever played. Totally subjective. But for such an expensive guitar, the nut is unacceptable. Plus, like ai mentioned, why even bother PLEK'ing their guitars if they follow up with a horribly cut nut and craptacular setup on what I'd think is what they'd consider a flagship model?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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