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Acoustic guitar construction (bracing)


ksdaddy

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This is one of those questions that would be asked by someone who just fell off the back of the turnip truck, and I like to think I passed that stage many decades ago...but one question popped into my head this morning and it's like a "why is the sky blue" question.

 

(large pride swallowing gulping noise)

 

*ahem*

 

I was pondering the differences between a Martin D-28 and D-35. The 28 has braces that are 5/16", the 35 1/4". In addition, the HD-28 and HD-35 have scalloped bracing. Big difference there, supposedly. So all other things being equal, string gauge, etc... Would the standard D-28 be considered overbuilt? Or at the other end of the spectrum, the HD-35 underbuilt? The comparisons I've read state that the standard D-28 doesn't fully come alive until it's pounded, and the 35 is more responsive to a lighter touch. Okay, I got that...but I'm speaking purely of structural strength and the top's ability to withstand years of string tension. Is the scalloped 35 more of a hothouse flower?

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Knowing nothing about stress, engineering, or guitar construction - feel I am imminently qualified to respond.

I don't think some issues we discuss here like break angle or the taper of the bridge pin hole as having the alleged audible impact on tone are valid,

But I do think a 1/6th inch wider brace, unscalloped, would definitely provide significantly more strength to the thin face, And have an audible impact on tone. I guess I see this as a generic question regarding bracing that uses Martins in the example. Actually, it is probably a safer discussion than if KSD were using Gibsons as examples.

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Alrite, here comes M into the party like it was walking on a yacht. But OK with me as the topic has some general points.

 

You are right, the D-35 is lighter, which (perhaps w. the 3-piece back) should provide more bass.

Is it felt compared to the common D-28'er. . .

I think so, but not much.

 

We have to look at the common 28 from 2 sides.

1 being via the later lighter HD and HD-28V's perspective and

2 being from where it came when it was born - namely as a lighter version a la the 2 above (especially the latter).

 

So if you take the first angle the D-28 wouldn't seem bulky. Opposite = those 2 herringbone-flashers would be light-weight, even fragile.

But seen as a next step in the days when happened, the then new fortified D-28 surely must have seemed overbuilt and too robust to offer the real sound'n'feel.

People must have discussed it back then - passionately, estranged, curious, frustrated.

 

But as we know the thick ones became the new standard and a classic to a degree where the originals were almost forgotten.

And let's realize it - a good well-broken-in Martin D-28 can sound like a dream. Talkin' about workhorse.

 

Not really my cup of tea though. I prefer the HD or HD-V and besides have been served by a 1984 D-35 for over 25 years.

The HD-V however is the favorite among those 4. After discovering scalloped bracing, it's like a project for me to play anything else.

 

Not trying to put down the straight D-28 or the slightly bigger brother 35 here - it's just my take on the family.

Crown jewel - the sparkling D-45 - came both scalloped and non-scalloped over the years, but that's another story.

All splendid, including the D-35, very respected acoustics, no secret. Guess the HD-35 is just as good, but more lify and responsive (I only played 1 which was torrefied and great).

Could be interesting to A/B one of those and the (forward shifted) HD-28V.

What is meant by hothouse flower ?

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It's up to you how you want to digest it. Overbuilt vs under built is one perspective. Instead I'd like to think and approach it in a way that different bracing thickness and scalloped vs. non-scalloped result in different signature sounds, or flavors. You pick the flavor or sound you like for your style of playing. One "flavor" may be suited better for one style while another "flavor" may be suited better for another. Neither is better worse, superior or inferior, and looking at it as overbuilt and under built is a bit o pigeon holing the whole thing. Pick the right sound for the application.

 

Also it's probably a better question for UNGF or AGF, not because this kind of question doesn't belong here. I could care less about that and actually like when people here discuss guitars other than Gibsons all the time. I just think you'll get a crap-ton more replies from guys who know about this stuff inside and out, but that's probably because they live, eat and breathe Martin guitar specs (but I have high suspicion that these guys actually can play!)

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It's up to you how you want to digest it. Overbuilt vs under built is one perspective. Instead I'd like to think and approach it in a way that different bracing thickness and scalloped vs. non-scalloped result in different signature sounds, or flavors. You pick the flavor or sound you like for your style of playing. One "flavor" may be suited better for one style while another "flavor" may be suited better for another. Neither is better worse, superior or inferior, and looking at it as overbuilt and under built is a bit o pigeon holing the whole thing. Pick the right sound for the application.

 

Also it's probably a better question for UNGF or AGF, not because this kind of question doesn't belong here. I could care less about that and actually like when people here discuss guitars other than Gibsons all the time. I just think you'll get a crap-ton more replies from guys who know about this stuff inside and out, but that's probably because they live, eat and breathe Martin guitar specs (but I have high suspicion that these guys actually can play!)

I agree w/your 'sound flavor' perspective. ☺

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Simplistic opinion, I've owned at least one of each, currently only have the D35. The D28 has 5/16", standard position, tall straight braces. The HD28s have 5/16", tall scalloped braces with the HD28V forward shifted. The D35 has 1/4", standard position, shorter straight braces.

 

The position of the X brace can be rear, standard, or forward depending on the model's configuration and depending on what era or custom, many variations. The scalloped HDs have considerable more bass, the D28 is great for the heavy handed with good but not heavy bass, and the D35 is more lively for lighter touch, with balanced bass, mids, trebles. Hope this makes sense and is of value.

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Simplistic opinion, I've owned at least one of each, currently only have the D35. The D28 has 5/16", standard position, tall straight braces. The HD28s have 5/16", tall scalloped braces with the HD28V forward shifted. The D35 has 1/4", standard position, shorter straight braces.

 

The position of the X brace can be rear, standard, or forward depending on the model's configuration and depending on what era or custom, many variations. The scalloped HDs have considerable more bass, the D28 is great for the heavy handed with good but not heavy bass, and the D35 is more lively for lighter touch, with balanced bass, mids, trebles. Hope this makes sense and is of value.

Interesting to me in terms of bass response. Especially with regard to your observations on the standard D-28 as opposed to the HD-28. I'm curious to know the time-frame of the models you reference - I may have to check out a few from that/those approximate date(s).

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Hey cowboy, the bracing patterns of these D28 models makes a big difference for various playing styles.

 

The H(ybrid)D28 was introduced in 1976 for those who wanted more bass than the std D28, then came the HD28V with the V shaped neck and forward shifted X, most think has more bass than the HD28. Both have too much bass for me, thus my D35.

 

Generalities rule for tone/age on any of these models, just have to try one by one. Many older D28s have hand their braces shaved to get that 'just right' tone. It's like my 59' LG3, ain't another sounds like it to be found.

 

Acoustic guitar players can be a tad finicky, so I believe, but save us all from classical guitar players.

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Hey cowboy, the bracing patterns of these D28 models makes a big difference for various playing styles.

 

The H(ybrid)D28 was introduced in 1976 for those who wanted more bass than the std D28, then came the HD28V with the V shaped neck and forward shifted X, most think has more bass than the HD28. Both have too much bass for me, thus my D35.

 

Generalities rule for tone/age on any of these models, just have to try one by one. Many older D28s have hand their braces shaved to get that 'just right' tone. It's like my 59' LG3, ain't another sounds like it to be found.

 

Acoustic guitar players can be a tad finicky, so I believe, but save us all from classical guitar players.

Cool! Thank you😌 The classical people have their own wavelength, for certain. Love their music - avoid their dialog😄

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Talking about Martin bracings, I sometimes run into this guy in the Tube.

Happened again last week.

Very passionate about guitars and in the video below you see him play his rather old D-28, , , , after Bryan Kimsey had it on the bench.

He seems happy with the result - easy enough to understand.

 

 

 

 

1971 dread ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6wacM7wGs

 

And here is what B.K. did to it ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv5H1iWt5Vk

 

"Giving customer's D-28 a final test run before stuffing it in a box and tossing it in the mail to Hawaii.

It's had a lot of modifications- bridgeplate replaced, braces lightly scalloped, bridge moved to correct location, refret, tuners, neck reset, bridge pins, bone saddle/nut."

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