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Ordered NEW Martin, received NOS


drathbun

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I'm having quite the spirited conversation over at the UMGF about my new Martin 000-28vs. As I mentioned in a thread below, the 000-28vs I received last Monday, arrived with a serial number that dates to 2013, not 2017 or even 2016. The guitar was ordered for me by Long & McQuade directly from Martin in Nazareth mid-March. The only one available in Canada had a crack in it and I ordered a new one. L&M was told a new guitar would be shipped to L&M Toronto around April 1. Because I had a deposit on the original one in stock in Vancouver, which I didn't want because of the crack, I was informed by L&M that I would get the very next guitar that came in. I naturally assumed it would be, at least, a 2016.

 

I've sent an email to Martin, Nazareth for an explanation and I will be speaking to L&M Calgary tomorrow. However, the speculation on this over at UMGF runs from, "this happens all the time and a NOS 2013 guitar is the same value as a 2017 new, off-the-line, guitar", to, "something is fishy in the state of Pennsylvania and I should rightly be upset".

 

I'm not really ALL that upset because this is an amazing instrument. However, I DID pay $4999.00 Cdn for what I expected would be a newly manufactured guitar. Four years is NOS, not NEW.

 

Comments? Do guitar manufacturers keep stock around for four years? I've also discovered that another member of UMGF has a 2016 000-28vs which he purchased from a dealer at least a year ago. How could he get a 2016 if they are still sending 2013 models to dealers? Is this normal?

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Everyone is for sure going to have an opinion about it, and the fact that the 2013 model is the most likely the same as a 2017, but you could look at it this way...a 2013 vehicle may very well be the same as a 2017 model if they haven't redesigned or refreshed the model in a few years, but you'll be darn sure that if you were buying a NOS 2013 today it would be heavily discounted. Just saying.

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Everyone is for sure going to have an opinion about it, and the fact that the 2013 model is the most likely the same as a 2017, but you could look at it this way...a 2013 vehicle may very well be the same as a 2017 model if they haven't redesigned or refreshed the model in a few years, but you'll be darn sure that if you were buying a NOS 2013 today it would be heavily discounted. Just saying.

 

 

I understand that

But , until the serial number was typed into a pic the man was delighted , there's video evidence of his happiness. I've seen folk do less for the birth of a child

Deal done happy seller happy buyer

 

 

the guitar doesn't know how old it is

 

If a 2016 model if offered up as a swap would it be taken ?

I bet if money was offered it'd be taken

 

Money money money money

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I understand that

But , until the serial number was typed into a pic the man was delighted , there's video evidence of his happiness. I've seen folk do less for the birth of a child

Deal done happy seller happy buyer

 

 

the guitar doesn't know how old it is

 

If a 2016 model if offered up as a swap would it be taken ?

I bet if money was offered it'd be taken

 

Money money money money

 

good points.

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I would ask Martin to send your store the next one off the line, and then let you decide which one to keep. Seems like this is the least Martin could do for you, as it does seem rather unfair to not know ahead of time that you're purchasing a four year old NOS instrument. If you had known in advance, you most certainly would have asked for a discount, right?

 

The grass is not always greener over the hill, but if you're as manic about these things as many of us are, you won't rest easy until you've been able to see & play what's on the other side of that hill.

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The preference here would actually be for the NOS guitar. More settled in, possibly more opened up sound- as long as it was kept in favorable conditions, and had not reacted with anything while it was stored in the case. I was more than happy to receive a five year-old NOS Gibson from McKenzie River Music in Oregon, and could not be more pleased with it. It also seems as though really nice rosewood for fretboard selection has been becoming more scarce for Gibson, so good on that front, as well.

 

The more spendy models do not exactly fly off of the shelves.

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I was more than happy to receive a five year-old Gibson from McKenzie River Music in Oregon

But the instrument was essentially used, wasn't it? I don't believe McKenzie River Music has ever been a Gibson dealer. Difference is, you knew what you were getting. In drathbun's case, he paid for what he believed would be a newly manufactured instrument off the line from an authorized dealer. I think he should have the opportunity to get such a beast in his hands & decide for himself.

 

I actually did something rather similar with the purchase of an ES-335. When the new one in the box arrived, I was able to compare the two guitars side by side, and ended up keeping the older one. But I was completely satisfied & had no lingering doubts (and still own that instrument today).

 

Btw, your mention of McKenzie River Music made me do a flashback. I used to live in Eugene, and when Bob November opened his store in 1981, it was my lunchtime refuge. He had an excellent eye for quality instruments (including a sweet little B-25 I bought from him), and was a great guy who is most certainly missed.

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I wouldn't worry about it. This time last year I bought a "new" Dove, on the basis of it being the best Dove I'd ever laid hands and ears on.

 

Months later I was still thrilling to the sound of it, when I happened to glance at the serial number out of curiosity and saw, to my immense surprise, that it was in fact a 2011. I'd paid 2016 shelf price for a 5yr old guitar! That accounted for the rich honey coloured top, the mature tone (it has presumably sat in a shop for those 5yrs, being played sporadically) and the fact that both in terms of sonics and playability, it had forgotten it had been a tree once and had fully assumed its identity as a guitar, to paraphrase Townes.

 

I adore my Dove and the fact it was surprisingly NOS just adds a quirk that lends extra character to its story.

 

Your Martin sounds AMAZING and I really hope this experience doesn't sour your relationship with it!

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But the instrument was essentially used, wasn't it? I don't believe McKenzie River Music has ever been a Gibson dealer. Difference is, you knew what you were getting. In drathbun's case, he paid for what he believed would be a newly manufactured instrument off the line from an authorized dealer. I think he should have the opportunity to get such a beast in his hands & decide for himself.

 

I actually did something rather similar with the purchase of an ES-335. When the new one in the box arrived, I was able to compare the two guitars side by side, and ended up keeping the older one. But I was completely satisfied & had no lingering doubts (and still own that instrument today).

 

Btw, your mention of McKenzie River Music made me do a flashback. I used to live in Eugene, and when Bob November opened his store in 1981, it was my lunchtime refuge. He had an excellent eye for quality instruments (including a sweet little B-25 I bought from him), and was a great guy who is most certainly missed.

 

Those are good points, especially from a legal perspective. I was just trying to let Doug know it could actually be better the way that it turned out.

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My notion - you got lucky. It's a wonderful instrument, likely less prone to the uncured finish and 'settling in' issues that accompany most that come fresh off the line, and you like it. So why make a big deal about it 😯 - don't break the spell.

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From your original description of your problem, the guitar was new and shipped from Martin in mint condition. Unlike cars, there are no changes each model year to differentiate and market the newest ones from the older. If the guitar you received is completely blemish free, I think it would be hard to justify expecting Martin to send you another new one so you could compare it based on a more subjective criteria. Since your comparison would be based purely on subjective criteria (not the date of manufacture or the quality of the build, why not ask them to send 2? or 3?

If the guitar were a 2015, would you feel justified in asking for a 2017 to compare it to? You got this in early 2017 as I recall. Would you have expected Martin (not L&M) to provide you a discount if they had shipped you a 2015?

Not trying to be argumentative here - I'm trying to suggest other scenarios that might help you better approach an understanding of the one you're faced with.

If your guitar was properly 'stored' (as I would expect Martin would have done) I don't think it's deteriorated, depreciated or lost value. But, it is a very real (and unusual) dilemma.

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It can not be compared to a car. It is not a car. It is a guitar and a new one at that, unowned until you. Guitar's get better with age. Cars wear out. A guitar's wood gets better with age. In 2009 I bought a new J-45 1964 Custom Shop Reissue. It's serial number showed it was made in 2006. Knowing guitars, I thought how cool. It was waiting to become mine. It came with a new guitar warrantee. It was a new guitar. It's now 11 years old. Getting to that really sweet spot age. Seemed really fast, cause it err was. Amazing how time flies. Way cool!

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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... Do guitar manufacturers keep stock around for four years? I've also discovered that another member of UMGF has a 2016 000-28vs which he purchased from a dealer at least a year ago. How could he get a 2016 if they are still sending 2013 models to dealers? Is this normal?

 

I'm in the unfair camp. Regardless of whether the model specs haven't been changed, or how great aging might be, a buyer should be properly informed of the year of manufacture and condition.

 

Are you sure this guitar came from Martin? . I find it very curious that Martin stores unsold stock for years - in this case 4 years. Seems to me the L&M story is a bit suspect.

 

Doug - please let us know what Martin has to say about this.

 

 

.

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It can not be compared to a car. It is not a car. It is a guitar and a new one at that, unowned until you. Guitar's get better with age. Cars wear out. A guitar's wood gets better with age. In 2009 I bought a new J-45 1964 Custom Shop Reissue. It's serial number showed it was made in 2006. Knowing guitars, I thought how cool. It was waiting to become mine. It came with a new guitar warrantee. It was a new guitar. It's now 11 years old. Getting to that really sweet spot age. Seemed really fast, cause it err was. Amazing how time flies. Way cool!

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

Seems we're on the same page with this one. The 'waiting to be yours' perspective calls my name about a lot of things....

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so the thing really to me would be how much has the price bumped up in 4 years? Selling a guitar made 4 years ago, at current prices.. doesn't seem 100% fair to the buyer does it?

 

When I bought my J200, I bought a 2016, (I didn't pay 2106 price) if I checked the price 4 years prior, they were indeed less expensive.

 

That would be the only thing that may stick in my throat about this.

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Seems we're on the same page with this one. The 'waiting to be yours' perspective calls my name about a lot of things....

 

Exactly how I felt about my Dove. It was waiting for me and came into my orbit right when my marriage ended, a cherished piece of musical shelter in an absolute hailstorm of emotional mayhem and the great example of a Dove that I'd always wanted.

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I am in no particular camp because I find the middle ground to better. I think the bottom line is when making a big purchase, if it is important to you, make sure you get exactly what you want. There is nothing wrong with that. Only you know what you truly desire and the importance to you. Make that happen. If the date is important to you then explain to the seller what it is that you want and ask them to make it so. Of course, take a look at your happy accident (the guitar) and consider the position you are in, how you would like things to be, and how important it is to you.

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Exactly how I felt about my Dove. It was waiting for me and came into my orbit right when my marriage ended, a cherished piece of musical shelter in an absolute hailstorm of emotional mayhem and the great example of a Dove that I'd always wanted.

 

 

wow, that was pretty deep... never having gone through this in my life, I can't really imagine the torment, but were it to happen, I would find refuge in the music.

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Thanks for all of your comments. And thanks for keeping the discussion civil! :)

 

Here is my latest response over at UMGF where a lot of people, like here, are suggesting I just enjoy the guitar:

 

While I was picking this guitar up and taking it out of the box, how was I to know it was NOS? I don't keep the Martin serial number chart in my pocket. Would I have paid the same price? Perhaps. However, I did NOT KNOW it was NOS, and therefore that lack of knowledge has ramifications. For example, I traded my 2014 Taylor 814ce (new price $4895) and received $2400 from L&M on the trade. Now if I had KNOWN the "new" guitar was in fact manufactured BEFORE the Taylor, I might have had some wiggle room to do a better deal on the Taylor.

 

So even though I have a brilliant instrument, I'll always have a bad taste in my mouth that there was something wrong with the deal. Hence, my interest in finding out what has gone down here. If I find that this is business as usual between Martin and their dealers, then fine. But if I find out that it was a situation where "he'll never know, let's give him this one we've been unable to sell for the last four years" it will change my perspective on future dealings with L&M or my attitude towards Martin as a company. Right now I'm still very supportive of both.

 

I'm very pro-Gibson, pro-Martin and pro-Long & McQuade. I really want to keep it that way.

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Ok.. I trying to put myself in your shoes.

 

If I ordered a "New" guitar which 'Supposedly" was coming direct from Martin in PA. Then I would expect a 2016-17 serial number. In addition, If I was told ahead of time.. Hey we have this 3-4 year old guitar (new and never opened). I would prob not accept it... Wondering why it is around so long. Plus I would think a price reduction is in order. I would expect a discount. Plus I would have wanted it "checked" and setup from factory.

 

On the other hand.. What If this really was started in production in 2013 and finally complete in 2017 (for some odd reason)... Then I would want to know what the reason was!

 

Lastly, I'm with you... What if it was some sort of return (new unsold and dealer found an issue years ago and returned it) ... Then this year, Martin finally got around to repairing and putting back on the shelf for sale.

 

All I think you are after is what is the history of the guitar... Am I right?

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Fair play to you

 

Wish you the best of luck with it all

If you find that the guitar leaves too bad a taste in your mouth and yo can't bare to look at it feel free to send it to me 😄

 

LOL. Not a chance BBG! Unless you want to give me $500 more than I paid for it (value added aging fee).

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