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J-45 Hell A Luthier's Discoveries

#101 User is offline   E-minor7 

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:13 PM

View PostAllie, on 15 May 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

1994....it's mine.


Yikes, , , what a drama this has become.

94 - or early 93 (as some say). I too first thought we saw Fullerplast, but wasn't nitrocellulose reintroduced already around 1990-91.
A detail to this theater would be that I've been FB-friend with Schartiger for about a year, but we only communicated once. He's a serious and nice guy.

Anyway - I sincerely hope you get over this wooden avalanche without traumas or bad karmas involved. No one - least of all you - deserves that.


Best of Luck




And now in the middle of writing an old thread reappears. I'm sure we all recognize the guitar.

http://forum.gibson....addle-cut-neck/


You just can't keep coincidences down. .
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#102 User is offline   OldCowboy 

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:22 PM

Hell, if they're not sawed in half, they might rise and begin to consume our fully-functioning guitars! Kind of a Gibzombie Apocalypse 😖
"The horror...the horror"...😱
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#103 User is offline   drathbun 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:34 AM

It is pretty obvious by looking at the dovetail joint of the removed neck that that neck has been off the guitar before. Perhaps whoever put the shims in used some sort of epoxy. Regardless, the repair moose (what's with the wolf howl and the "antlers"?) missed the joint with the steam and when he started adding pressure to the back of the heel and without having the glue loosened, the upward pressure split the block and the side of the guitar. No wonder the video ends before that point and starts again with the neck off. I'm sure he continued recording until there must have been a gut-wrenching CRACK! Then the video begins again after he's had time to think up an excuse. Pretty ballsy of him to blame Gibson for the crack I must say. I'd blame Gibson for the off-centre dovetail but that's about it.
Doug

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2014 Godin Multiac Classical
2013 Martin 000-28vs 12 fret
2012 Gibson "The Golden Age 1930's" SJ200
2012 Squier Vintage Modified 70's Jazz Bass
2010 Gretsch Electromatic G5122DC
2009 Taylor GA3-12e
2004 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster
1981 Rickenbacker 320JG
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#104 User is offline   fortyearspickn 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:16 AM

View Postdrathbun, on 17 May 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

It is pretty obvious by looking at the dovetail joint of the removed neck that that neck has been off the guitar before. Perhaps whoever put the shims in used some sort of epoxy. Regardless, the repair moose (what's with the wolf howl and the "antlers"?) missed the joint with the steam and when he started adding pressure to the back of the heel and without having the glue loosened, the upward pressure split the block and the side of the guitar. No wonder the video ends before that point and starts again with the neck off. I'm sure he continued recording until there must have been a gut-wrenching CRACK! Then the video begins again after he's had time to think up an excuse. Pretty ballsy of him to blame Gibson for the crack I must say. I'd blame Gibson for the off-centre dovetail but that's about it.


DrathB, I"m confused. In your 1st sentence you state 'its obvious the dovetail joint has been off the guitar before. In your last sentence you blame Gibson for the off center dovetail. How can we be certain that Gibson created and installed at their factory an off center dovetail? If someone unqualified worked on the guitar before - and messed with the dovetail - how can we blame Gibson for what is uncovered as much as 20 years later?
To build on BlindBoyGrunt's observation - "...if you have a 20 year old Ford..." and someone takes the transmission out, takes it apart, adjusts it incorrectly, puts it back together, re-installs it with shims.... and the rear axle cracks - do you blame Ford QC ?? In this analogy, someone who doesn't own a Ford takes the Shade Tree Mechanics edited YouTube video which attempts to shift the blame on Ford - and posts it on the Ford Forum.
So, help me understand your conclusion, in your last sentence - in light of your opening statement. Thanks.
SJ200 2004
H'Bird TV 2010
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#105 User is offline   OldCowboy 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:26 AM

Bottom line to me is that you never know where a guitar has been in terms of repair unless you've been with it since it was first completed. Cosmetics may suggest that it's never been worked on, but a lot can be done to make that happen.
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#106 User is offline   fortyearspickn 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:35 AM

View PostOldCowboy, on 17 May 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

Bottom line to me is that you never know where a guitar has been in terms of repair unless you've been with it since it was first completed. Cosmetics may suggest that it's never been worked on, but a lot can be done to make that happen.


Agree.
SJ200 2004
H'Bird TV 2010
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#107 User is offline   Hogeye 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:27 AM

There was one point the owner was trying to make. It was stated that the guitar had this reinforcing patch but a later model '97 didn't. So this patch must be a cleat to fix the crack done at the factory.

It would be obvious to anyone that knew about Gibson guitars why this happened. The early guitars used a S.O.R.S. pick-up system. This pick-up had two knobs mounted on the bass side rib next to the neck. This patch was used to reinforce the rib when this system was installed. They put the patch in all models in case there was an order for a pick-up.

The '97 models used an entirely different pick-up. The Gibson accu-voice system was mounted on the bass side rib but the pick-up and controls were mounted in the area of the waist of the rib. This system required that a large hole was cut into the rib to accommodate the controls for the pick-up. The patch was used to reinforce this area. Not all guitars got this patch but most did.

There is also a question about the finish on this guitar. When the neck was removed the first time the area around the fingerboard extension was over sprayed to finish the repair. This made the finish appear to be quite thick. This is definitely a nitro finish.

Anyone that knows anything about repair work knows that hide glue lets go at 180 degrees Fahrenheit. The fret board extension can be take off quite easily without damaging, excessive heat, and requires no moisture. This man stated that he could put up to 300 or so degrees on the extension with his steam iron. This was what caused the lacquer in this area to fail. He and he alone destroyed the top finish.

The reason for the need for a neck reset is simple. The guitar was over humidified and this caused the top to swell. When the top swells the bridge being glued to the top raises up as well and the action becomes to high. There will be a point where the action gets so high that the guitar becomes unplayable. At this point the top geometry is way out of spec and the back has been stretched. When the top raises like this the fretboard extension that is glued to the top raises as well and it creates the 14 fret neck hump or the ski jump the man refers to. The guitar became unplayable and instead of fixing the problem this person decided to do a neck reset. This would be OK if he had the competence to do the job. He doesn't. An action repair cannot be fixed by adjusting the truss rod.

There are a lot of issues in this thread and it would take weeks to discuss them all. The only reason I even bother responding at this point is that it is currently snowing outside and I can't get out and do the lawn work I had planned for this week.

A personal note for KSDaddy. If you want a neck you will have to come to Bozeman and attend the Homecoming like you did so many years ago. I will give you a tour of Yellowstone Park and then I will open up the world famous "Hogeye" archive and we can search out your neck. It will only take a couple of hours to find one... Think hoarder here. Ha....
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#108 User is offline   ksdaddy 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:30 AM

Aw man that hurts. My wallet anyway. Maybe next year!
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#109 User is offline   drathbun 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:19 PM

View Postfortyearspickn, on 17 May 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

DrathB, I"m confused. In your 1st sentence you state 'its obvious the dovetail joint has been off the guitar before. In your last sentence you blame Gibson for the off center dovetail. How can we be certain that Gibson created and installed at their factory an off center dovetail? If someone unqualified worked on the guitar before - and messed with the dovetail - how can we blame Gibson for what is uncovered as much as 20 years later?
To build on BlindBoyGrunt's observation - "...if you have a 20 year old Ford..." and someone takes the transmission out, takes it apart, adjusts it incorrectly, puts it back together, re-installs it with shims.... and the rear axle cracks - do you blame Ford QC ?? In this analogy, someone who doesn't own a Ford takes the Shade Tree Mechanics edited YouTube video which attempts to shift the blame on Ford - and posts it on the Ford Forum.
So, help me understand your conclusion, in your last sentence - in light of your opening statement. Thanks.


Hogeye pretty much answered the question. For me, the shims on the dovetail indicate a previous neck reset. The shims don't actually DO the resetting, (you have to carefully shave the shoulders of the heel), but are the result of having to "refit" the dovetail when the neck is re-installed. The original dovetail joint and neck pocket are obviously off-centre and were part of the original construction of the guitar. I assume this is how Bozeman guitars were hand built in the early '90's and subject to individual specs.

Also of note for me, the guitar butcher in the video runs a straight-edge down the fretboard and it glides over the bridge on centre, but slightly butts the bridge on the high and low sides. He then concludes the guitar needs a neck reset. Holy crap, every guitar in the universe needs a neck reset then! This guy's troubles with this guitar started when he couldn't diagnose the problem of the rollercoaster neck.
Doug

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2014 Godin Multiac Classical
2013 Martin 000-28vs 12 fret
2012 Gibson "The Golden Age 1930's" SJ200
2012 Squier Vintage Modified 70's Jazz Bass
2010 Gretsch Electromatic G5122DC
2009 Taylor GA3-12e
2004 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster
1981 Rickenbacker 320JG
1968 Yamaha FG150 Red Label
My Soundclick Music Page

My YouTube Channel
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#110 User is offline   aerohead 

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:43 PM

This is a very educational thread.

The most important thing I've learned is that when it comes time for a neck reset I will be selling my guitar.

DrathB - When you said "he missed the joint with the steam" I was under the impression that he was aiming for the pocket between the end of the dovetail and the neck block which to me looked like he hit perfectly.

In any case Allie my condolences to you over this disaster of a guitar from start to finished

Please keep us informed on the rest of the saga.
1990 Wine Red Les Paul Custom
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#111 User is offline   Leonard McCoy 

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 01:26 PM

More info on the guitar:


1990 Ovation Legend L717 (A-bracing)
2009 Gibson Les Paul Standard Left-handed Ebony

Finely transcribed Cat Stevens Guitar Tabs (fan project)

"Believe me when I say that some of the most amazing music in history
was made on equipment that's not as good as what you own right now."óJol Dantzig, founder of Hamer Guitars
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#112 User is offline   bobouz 

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 03:12 AM

A couple of comments:

The repair fellow again mentions Gibson seconds. Kalamazoo did stamp guitars as seconds, usually for finish issues. This is a Montana instrument, so that is not relevant.

Per the serial number, this guitar was clearly built in 1993. That's twenty-four years ago. His commentary tends to give the impression that the instrument was a recent build, and someone should be fired for letting this guitar out the factory door. It's quite misleading, and I believe does a disservice to the overwhelming body of Montana's work in the last couple of decades. Whatever the facts of this instrument may or may not be, the greatest negative one might take from it, imho, is that it might reflect one of the down periods Ren has referred to.

I've owned Gibson acoustics from the '20s, '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, and '70s. I've also owned a '96 J-100xtra, and it was very well built (but the neck was a baseball bat). Nowadays, aside from true vintage pieces, my personal line in the sand is drawn at the 1999 model year for Gibson acoustics, when Ren began a major effort to accurately recreate many classic models from the past. Shortly thereafter, praise began rolling in, and reviewers, including vintage oriented folks, would frequently state that Montana may be building some of the best acoustic guitars Gibson has ever made.

Whether it's Gibson, Martin, Guild, or anyone else, most instrument factories have had various eras with assorted highs & lows. It's important to historically learn as much as possible, and become familiar with various eras within a builder's body of work in order to carry on an accurate and credible discussion.
> Gibsons: '22 "A" Mandolin / '66 ES 125T / '90 Tennessean / '00 J-100 Xtra
'02 J-45 Rosewood / '02 SG Faded-moon / '06 ES 335 / '09 ES 339
'10 ES 330L / '11 ES 335-P90s / '12 ES 330 VOS / '12 LP Special
'12 J-185 / '13 LG2-AE / '13 Midtown Kalamazoo / '14 J-15
> Epis: '66 FT45n Cortez / '00 AIUSA-John Lee Hooker 1964 Sheraton
'05 McCartney 1964 Texan (Terada-Elitist) / '09 Elitist 1965 Casino
> Martins: '00 OOO-16 / '01 Custom Rosewood D / > Ibanez: '81 M-340
> Guilds: '73 F-30R / '74 F-40 / '76 G-37 / '92 D-6 / '94 JF-30 / '97 Starfire
'14 Savoy A-150b / > Breedlove: '10 American Series OO Mandolin
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#113 User is offline   blindboygrunt 

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 03:19 AM

The finish on the shoulder / neck join is clearly not symmetrical , but the neck joint looks to me to be in line with the bridge and saddle.
Am I missing something ?

Just an amateur trying to figure out what has happened amongst all the jargon and so on
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#114 User is offline   fortyearspickn 

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:10 AM

Bones, are you Jonesing for a J45? Since you kicked off this brouhaha and resurrected it again, I was curious.
I noticed you don't actually have a Gibson, so I was wondering if your hours of research on luthier's comments about Gibson Acoustics is because you're planning on joining the club?
I noticed yesterday on Guitar Center's website - where they have all their used inventory posted - they probably have 2 dozen J45s. Many in 'excellent' condition at great prices.
I guess it's possible to interpret that as - 'a lot of people are unloading their J45s' Equally possible to interpret - 'lots of people are happy to buy gently used J45s".
SJ200 2004
H'Bird TV 2010
J45 Custom Koa 2013
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#115 User is offline   Leonard McCoy 

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 04:30 AM

View Postfortyearspickn, on 24 May 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Bones, are you Jonesing for a J45? Since you kicked off this brouhaha and resurrected it again, I was curious.
I noticed you don't actually have a Gibson, so I was wondering if your hours of research on luthier's comments about Gibson Acoustics is because you're planning on joining the club?
I noticed yesterday on Guitar Center's website - where they have all their used inventory posted - they probably have 2 dozen J45s. Many in 'excellent' condition at great prices.
I guess it's possible to interpret that as - 'a lot of people are unloading their J45s' Equally possible to interpret - 'lots of people are happy to buy gently used J45s".

In short, the double bane of the southpaw player plus a very specific taste. I love Gibson guitars, and while I could get a preowned factory lefty J-45 without too much trouble, I'd rather aim for a more compact J-180 Everly for now. I've had an 1967 Epiphone Texan before (as well as the recent reissue), but she didn't really feel comfortable playing to me due to her size and/or body shape. And as you can probably imagine being a southpaw looking for specific factory-lefty Gibson has become quite the hobby in and of itself.

As for the J-45 hell videos above, well, I've never seen such a botched Gibson taken apart before anywhere on the Internet, so it's definitely interesting.
1990 Ovation Legend L717 (A-bracing)
2009 Gibson Les Paul Standard Left-handed Ebony

Finely transcribed Cat Stevens Guitar Tabs (fan project)

"Believe me when I say that some of the most amazing music in history
was made on equipment that's not as good as what you own right now."óJol Dantzig, founder of Hamer Guitars
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#116 User is offline   fortyearspickn 

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 07:16 AM

View PostLeonard McCoy, on 25 May 2017 - 04:30 AM, said:

In short, the double bane of the southpaw player plus a very specific taste. I love Gibson guitars, and while I could get a preowned factory lefty J-45 without too much trouble, I'd rather aim for a more compact J-180 Everly for now. I've had an 1967 Epiphone Texan before (as well as the recent reissue), but she didn't really feel comfortable playing to me due to her size and/or body shape. And as you can probably imagine being a southpaw looking for specific factory-lefty Gibson has become quite the hobby in and of itself.

As for the J-45 hell videos above, well, I've never seen such a botched Gibson taken apart before anywhere on the Internet, so it's definitely interesting.


Aaaaah..... I've got an SJ200 that can get big. I'm NOT big. I've found holding it at angle helps. Instead of holding parallel to your chest - pointing the head out a bit so your right (in your case left) arm has the top of the lower bout tucked more underneath. That way - you're not putting leverage on your rotator cup, because your inner forearm is over more to the side and down closer to your body. And, some here have posted using a strap can help you find a more comfortable position, even sitting. Look up a picture of Little Jimmy Dickens playing his Super Jumbo and you may get inspired. G'Luck.
SJ200 2004
H'Bird TV 2010
J45 Custom Koa 2013
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#117 User is offline   Dash_Starkiller 

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 07:44 AM

I watch all these videos. And just to add to what someone said earlier, if you haven't watched Rosa String Works, you really should. His work is excellent and his editing is great as well. I always cringe when I see these home repairs. That iron on top of the guitar with some "paper" is bad. Most likely he left the steam going on the iron...
2012 Gibson J45 "68" Ebony
2000s Recording King ROS 627
1986 Fender E-series Japan Strat
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#118 User is offline   Leonard McCoy 

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 08:22 AM

View PostDash_Starkiller, on 25 May 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

I watch all these videos. And just to add to what someone said earlier, if you haven't watched Rosa String Works, you really should. His work is excellent and his editing is great as well. I always cringe when I see these home repairs. That iron on top of the guitar with some "paper" is bad. Most likely he left the steam going on the iron...

Jerry Rosa is a blast to watch. I wish I had access to that great a luthier as him here.
1990 Ovation Legend L717 (A-bracing)
2009 Gibson Les Paul Standard Left-handed Ebony

Finely transcribed Cat Stevens Guitar Tabs (fan project)

"Believe me when I say that some of the most amazing music in history
was made on equipment that's not as good as what you own right now."óJol Dantzig, founder of Hamer Guitars
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#119 User is offline   Dash_Starkiller 

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 08:41 AM

 Leonard McCoy, on 25 May 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Jerry Rosa is a blast to watch. I wish I had access to that great a luthier as him here.


His work on a 50s J45 was great. He really went in and fixed ALL structural issues and touched up the cosmetics tastefully. And from what I understand he only charges a few hundred to do these jobs!
2012 Gibson J45 "68" Ebony
2000s Recording King ROS 627
1986 Fender E-series Japan Strat
1977 Ventura V 1588
Homebuilt Tele-monster
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#120 User is offline   Allie 

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 06:02 AM

Let me see if I understand the general consensus of this guitar. We now seem to pretty much all agree, other than myself...and my tech that has the guitar...that at some point in the guitars life the neck was removed by an unknown butcher(or more than just one?)and a few shims where placed in the dovetail joint, put back on and then the finish was touched up to the point that it equaled Gibsons original finish? if that was indeed the case, which I have every reason to doubt, the butcher should stick to finishing work. I know the crack in the side was a result of the tech removing the neck by putting pressure on th SM removel tool.I also know that it would be impossible to know that the neck joint had anything other than hide glue holding it on, which anyone would expect the neck to release when the threshold temp was achieved, this was clearly NOT the case. I also know with a near 100% degree of certianty that the neck had never been off of the guitar. Which leads me to believe this neck came from the original builder with the neck joint in the condition my tech discovered it. I also have every reason to believe this is a genuine Gibson guitar. I have held the guitar in my hands...a Lot...my tech has also had the guitar in hand..I respectfully disagree with the assesment here that the neck has been off the guitar, before this instance.
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