More gain / volume queries

[blindboygrunt]

Turned up at last nights , normally quiet , gig to a crowded bar

Some fool is getting marrried today so they were all out the night before to ensure the obligatory hangovers in the church

 

Anyway , I had to play at a louder volume than I normally would ... I've just used the fishstick for 3 times before last night so Me and it are still getting to know each other

 

I found a couple of times that proximity to the mic was clumsy and a couple of times , eyes closed , i moved a little closer to the mic and then scared myself with too much vocal for a split second.

So - more volume and less gain to smooth this out ?

Or more gain on the mic and lower volume ?

 

This make any sense ?

 

I found myself thinking way too much last night about the balance of guitar and mic which made the little gig seem like harder work than I normally find it

 

i think what started the ball rolling was the harsh sound that undersaddle pickups have. Takes bit of getting used to and doesn't sound as bad at the normal volume I play at because I guess I can hear the guitar acoustically in my lap a little more

 

I didnt fall to pieces or anything and all the above is of course hugely exaggerated in the mind of a man sittin singing songs to a crowd of strangers. But some of you will know how it is , a clear and calm mind allows for the best performance . Sometimes that's harder than other times

[kidblast]

yea Stu,, Agree.. It's very hard to get your head out of the inner conflict when you're struggling with your sound.

 

anyway, it would be LESS gain and more volume if the sound was distorted (clipping) when you got too close. Less gain = less attenuation so the channel is not running quite as hot.

 

the PAD control will help to cut the over all signal if you have a hot mic and you want to be ontop of it when you sing. same for a hot pickup in your guitar. it will just help to keep it from going into clipping.

 

to combat the brittleness of a under saddle pup, I think something like a boss 7 band EQ could help. But now you're getting into other things to setup to go a long with the SA.. probably not what you're looking for.

 

Crowd noise in a place like this is one of the hardest things to over come. I've come to the conclusion that you really can't win that war.

 

These Sticks are cool but like anything else, they have their limits too. Maybe your best bet is to chalk up this last gig as one of the ones where you were just out shouted by the inebriated? Usually you don't have this problem right?

[Jinder]

I'd turn the mic down a bit and, if it's an SM58 style dynamic mic, get closer to it when you sing. Standard mic technique is to have your top lip JUST touching the grill of the mic when singing. A dynamic mic will sound much better and more present at close proximity to the source and you'll have an anchor point in terms of distance from the mic so you'll know where you are all the time, and be able to control your vocal dynamics better by backing off the mic slightly when going for a big note.

[blindboygrunt]

it would be LESS gain and more volume if the sound was distorted when you got too close. Less gain = less attenuation so the channel is not running quite as hot.

 

what are you using for a vocal mic? Some of them will respond differently to where you're positioned when singing. to smooth this kind of gap out tho. a compressor / limiter is probably the tool for that job. Does the stick have a "limiter" ? I don't recall that it does

 

When you start to crank up solid state amplifiers, they can tend to get a bit harsh sounding. Maybe this was part of your experience last night?

 

Crowd noise in a place like this is one of the hardest things to over come. I've come to the conclusion that you really can't win that war.

 

Cheers kidblast. I'll lodge that little piece of knowledge.

Like I said , I was by no means beaten , there wasn't a crowd of 800 or anything The stick is more than capable and I didn't have the volume anywhere near full. I'm not there to get people dancing or anything like it. Pub owner isn't looking for a 'performance'

 

I use an sm58 beta , no idea how that fits into the world of microphones , just know it's a good un ... but of course it might not be the perfect match for me. But I'm not going to be a bad workman who blames his tools. Just try and figure out how to get the best out of it

[Buc McMaster]

How much gain is dialed up at the preamp depends on ones' singing style. From your postings here, Stu, I'd guess your front end gain setting would be pretty high relative to someone like myself that tends to sing loudly. And ditto for the guitar.........finger style players will generally need more preamp gain than a flat picker/strummer. As for balancing the two, distance off the mic is the great equalizer. I personally prefer to sing "right on the mic" as my normal setting, backing off varying distance when it's time to dig in vocally. Vocal mic gain should be set such that your softest vocal passages are adequate to push the system, then it's up to the singer to learn how far to back off when varying levels of vocal kick are required. Working a mic correctly is a skill in itself........trial & error are the instructors.

 

.....oh and do yerself a favor.......get off the UST and install a K&K......much easier to dial a tone.

[kidblast]

Cheers kidblast. I'll lodge that little piece of knowledge.

Like I said , I was by no means beaten , there wasn't a crowd of 800 or anything The stick is more than capable and I didn't have the volume anywhere near full. I'm not there to get people dancing or anything like it. Pub owner isn't looking for a 'performance'

 

I use an sm58 beta , no idea how that fits into the world of microphones , just know it's a good un ... but of course it might not be the perfect match for me. But I'm not going to be a bad workman who blames his tools. Just try and figure out how to get the best out of it

 

Sure 58 is a very solid industry standard for sure. Like Jinder and Buc, I tend to get right on the mesh and back off when I need to push.

 

I played quite a bit at a pub / restaurant next town over. The bar area was small, only maybe 8 or 10 tables. but the bar area would get packed with locals catching up on a saturday night, at best, 30/35 ppl?? The crowd noise was insurmountable most of the night. most of us that played there would comment to each as to why they even had entertainment.

[blindboygrunt]

How much gain is dialed up at the preamp depends on ones' singing style. From your postings here, Stu, I'd guess your front end gain setting would be pretty high relative to someone like myself that tends to sing loudly. And ditto for the guitar.........finger style players will generally need more preamp gain than a flat picker/strummer. As for balancing the two, distance off the mic is the great equalizer. I personally prefer to sing "right on the mic" as my normal setting, backing off varying distance when it's time to dig in vocally. Vocal mic gain should be set such that your softest vocal passages are adequate to push the system, then it's up to the singer to learn how far to back off when varying levels of vocal kick are required. Working a mic correctly is a skill in itself........trial & error are the instructors.

 

.....oh and do yerself a favor.......get off the UST and install a K&K......much easier to dial a tone.

 

Oh I'm a big fan of kk buc

I put one in my last martin and I'd find it hard to go past them ...

Soon I hope to have enough to put one in the j45 , or maybe just rip out this fishman matrix and continue to gig with the little 000 martin ...

 

But I'll. it not put up with the USP forever

 

 

And yeah kidblast , a good Di or EQ would help , but I really want to stay simple and get as close as I can rather than starting the never ending quest and a carboot (or trunk) full of gadgetry

 

 

 

Buc ...You're spot on with the mic technique theory , I'm aware of back and forth with the head.

I'd prefer to sing back from the mic though , maybe it's the wrong mic for me .... maybe I should just anchor me lip to it like jinder says ...

What I really need I suppose is a pal to turn up and help me get started off. Once I've found the benchmark then it'll be easier for me to correct or incorrect it

 

And I'll reiterate, I finished the twelve rounds last night and won on points , just be ideal to get a knockout in the 4 th or 5 th ya know 👍🏻

 

 

This is all locker room chat and nothing more.

There won't be any complaints from the punters. Just filling in stone chips here chaps

 

 

Thanks for all the help

[drathbun]

Cheers kidblast. I'll lodge that little piece of knowledge.

Like I said , I was by no means beaten , there wasn't a crowd of 800 or anything The stick is more than capable and I didn't have the volume anywhere near full. I'm not there to get people dancing or anything like it. Pub owner isn't looking for a 'performance'

 

I use an sm58 beta , no idea how that fits into the world of microphones , just know it's a good un ... but of course it might not be the perfect match for me. But I'm not going to be a bad workman who blames his tools. Just try and figure out how to get the best out of it

 

The Beta 58a (super cardioid) has a much more focused pickup pattern than the regular 58 (cardioid), and so feels a bit hotter. I like to think of the Beta pattern as being about the size of your head when you are two or three inches from it, where the 58 is more like a head and a half. The 58 is great for sharing the mic with someone else.

 

 

[blindboygrunt]

What's a good mic that doesn't require close proximity?

All online stuff says that shure mice are great for close proximity

Even bono uses one

 

But what if a fella wants to sit back a little ?

I've a deep voice and getting close makes it DEEPer

[rct]

What's a good mic that doesn't require close proximity?

All online stuff says that shure mice are great for close proximity

Even bono uses one

 

But what if a fella wants to sit back a little ?

I've a deep voice and getting close makes it DEEPer

 

I use a Beta 58. I move back and forth, side to side, I spend time at rehearsal figuring out where I want to be for various parts of all songs, electric or acoustic. I move as I play and sing anyway, so I might as well benefit the song while I'm at it, right? First song I sing out front on and I get the feel for the cabinets, the bounce off the back, and the monitors after the first two or three lines, and I can pretty much figure from there how bigga red zone I need tonight. It's something to be conscious of, and makes one a better performer rather than just attempting to buy the solution. It's always going to be relative to however whomever set the PA. I've managed an entire playing career without ever even looking at that stuff and I've been just fine, I listen to the first couple lines and go from there.

 

The FishStick thingy might be giving you some immediacy anxiety. With no latency and no bounce off the back, the immediate presence of your own voice can be disconcerting and can mess up yer perceptions of how you should distance yourself, like in-ear monitors that old fruits like me avoid like the plague. Ignore that immediacy, difficult as that is, is my best advice.

 

rct

[blindboygrunt]

I use a Beta 58. I move back and forth, side to side, I spend time at rehearsal figuring out where I want to be for various parts of all songs, electric or acoustic. I move as I play and sing anyway, so I might as well benefit the song while I'm at it, right? First song I sing out front on and I get the feel for the cabinets, the bounce off the back, and the monitors after the first two or three lines, and I can pretty much figure from there how bigga red zone I need tonight. It's something to be conscious of, and makes one a better performer rather than just attempting to buy the solution. It's always going to be relative to however whomever set the PA. I've managed an entire playing career without ever even looking at that stuff and I've been just fine, I listen to the first couple lines and go from there.

 

The FishStick thingy might be giving you some immediacy anxiety. With no latency and no bounce off the back, the immediate presence of your own voice can be disconcerting and can mess up yer perceptions of how you should distance yourself, like in-ear monitors that old fruits like me avoid like the plague. Ignore that immediacy, difficult as that is, is my best advice.

 

rct

 

I've heard advice from old fruits before rct

But I hear what you're saying , makes sense .. thanks