Tips for buying used and vintage acoustics...

[Dash_Starkiller]

Hey all, I've bought many used and vintage acoustics throughout the years and was curious as to what you all look for when purchasing. Things like saddle height, bridge lift, neck sets are all some of the most common things to look for. I wanted to hear your thoughts on what are some other signs or issues that people who are new to buying vintage, or buying a used guitar online should look for?

[jedzep]

Me too, and I've done pretty well overall. I have a few tips but I'd say my greatest ally has been the pure good fortune of having a reasonably priced repair shop close by to run condition issues by when I see something I'm interested in. I pay a mere $235. for neck resets, for example,, and comparably low prices for other repairs. That's made it easier for me to chase old guitars. Having a handful of very specific questions is also important, as many sellers aren't always knowledgeable about what they have, especially folks who have inherited instruments.

[Dash_Starkiller]

Me too, and I've done pretty well overall. I have a few tips but I'd say my greatest ally has been the pure good fortune of having a reasonably priced repair shop close by to run condition issues by when I see something I'm interested in. I pay a mere $235. for neck resets, for example,, and comparably low prices for other repairs. That's made it easier for me to chase old guitars. Having a handful of very specific questions is also important, as many sellers aren't always knowledgeable about what they have, especially folks who have inherited instruments.

 

That's a great price for a neck reset. I once bought my father in law a harmony sovereign from a friends shop for $30 for him to practice neck resets on. So if I need one I potentially have a resource for free now haha. I also find a lot of sellers online won't show guitars at certain angles because of neck or bridge issues.

[tpbiii]

Wow -- my first response is this is a really big topic for a forum. I guess there are some obvious basics, but the devil is in the details -- and there are a lot of those. And never mind how much you know, there is always more to know. Of course, that is part of the fascination -- that is why collecting vintage instruments has been part of our (family) music avocation that ate Cleveland for about 50 years.

 

From 10000 feet, I guess I would say there is three different areas that dominate our thinking. First, do we want the instrument at all. We are only interested in historically significant models that are tonally excellent and that have a place in our musical life. Second what is the condition of the instrument. This is a pretty subtle and complex issue for vintage instruments, because you run into many combinations of playing ware, maintenance history, and what maintenance is required and/or possible. We too are lucky to live in an area where costs are relatively low and world famous luthiers are available. Finally, market issues for the instrument are important because owning old instruments for us has a long-term investment component.

 

I could -- and perhaps will -- talk at length are all three areas, and it would be fun to exchange experience and information on all three areas. Alas, right now I am going to be too busy for awhile. If this is still going in a couple of weeks, maybe I can waste some time here.

 

All the best,

 

-Tom

[Leonard McCoy]

Typically I make sure, whenever possibly by on-site inspection, that the preowned instrument is legit and doesn't have any hidden issues structurally or tonally that could become very expensive or even impossible to fix later on. This is especially true for purchases from private sellers where there's no return policy as with a store.

 

Some structural things I tend to look out for (be prepared to bring a mirror, small flashlight, and long straight edge to the inspection):

 

• heel gaps
  
• neck angle
  
• straight neck
  
• domed belly
  
• dryness (e.g. sunken top)
  
• cracks through the soundboard
  
• loose bridge
  
• improper intonation (misaligned saddle or improperly positioned bridge)
  
• worn frets
  
• shrunk pickguard
  
• neck reset candidate
  
• warped bridge plate
  
• loose braces inside the guitar
  
• signs of former repair jobs (cleats inside the guitar?)
  
• tuners (too loose or too tight)
  
• loose binding
  
• malfunctioning electronics (best tested with headphones)

[Dash_Starkiller]

Typically I make sure, whenever possibly by on-site inspection, that the preowned instrument is legit and doesn't have any hidden issues structurally or tonally that could become very expensive or even impossible to fix later on.

 

Some structural things I tend to look out for (be prepared to bring a mirror, small flashlight, and long straight edge to the inspection):

 

• heel gaps
  
• neck angle
  
• straight neck
  
• domed belly
  
• dryness (e.g. sunken top)
  
• cracks through the soundboard
  
• loose bridge
  
• improper intonation (misaligned saddle or improperly positioned bridge)
  
• worn frets
  
• shrunk pickguard
  
• neck reset candidate
  
• warped bridge plate
  
• loose braces inside the guitar
  
• signs of former repair jobs (cleats inside the guitar?)
  
• tuners (too loose or too tight)
  
• loose binding
  
• malfunctioning electronics (best tested with headphones)

 

Thank you that well put and thought out list. I think what I really wanted to get out of this is what most acoustic players look for. I get frustrated when searching guitars online only to get 2 pictures from about 10ft away and a short pointless description. My other big issue are the people that try to sell guitars with issues and never bring them up. Bad neck set with high action? They will write something like "great for slide!" Or "plays great in the first position!". They tend to never show close ups of the action. With online guitar purchases being so popular I wanted to get an idea for everyone can know what to look for so they don't get burned spending a grand on a guitar that needs another $500 in work.

[Dash_Starkiller]

Wow -- my first response is this is a really big topic for a forum. I guess there are some obvious basics, but the devil is in the details -- and there are a lot of those. And never mind how much you know, there is always more to know. Of course, that is part of the fascination -- that is why collecting vintage instruments has been part of our (family) music avocation that ate Cleveland for about 50 years.

 

From 10000 feet, I guess I would say there is three different areas that dominate our thinking. First, do we want the instrument at all. We are only interested in historically significant models that are tonally excellent and that have a place in our musical life. Second what is the condition of the instrument. This is a pretty subtle and complex issue for vintage instruments, because you run into many combinations of playing ware, maintenance history, and what maintenance is required and/or possible. We too are lucky to live in an area where costs are relatively low and world famous luthiers are available. Finally, market issues for the instrument are important because owning old instruments for us has a long-term investment component.

 

I could -- and perhaps will -- talk at length are all three areas, and it would be fun to exchange experience and information on all three areas. Alas, right now I am going to be too busy for awhile. If this is still going in a couple of weeks, maybe I can waste some time here.

 

All the best,

 

-Tom

 

Thanks Tom. I think those are all super important topics to bring up. You have your casual player looking for their first "vintage" guitar and yoh have your collector. Both deserve to have a place in the guitar buying world with the best information. Where some might veiw replaced tuners as a huge turn off, others might not care at all. Then, I suppose, we get into the discussion of value. That is a whole different can of worms...

[bobouz]

The most important thing I look for is a straightforward & reasonable return policy!

[Dash_Starkiller]

The most important thing I look for is a straightforward & reasonable return policy!

 

NO RETURNS!! AS-IS!!

[E-minor7]

• heel gaps
• neck angle
• straight neck
• domed belly
• dryness (e.g. sunken top)
• cracks through the soundboard
• loose bridge
• improper intonation (misaligned saddle or improperly positioned bridge)
• worn frets
• shrunk pickguard
• neck reset candidate
• warped bridge plate
• loose braces inside the guitar
• signs of former repair jobs (cleats inside the guitar?)
• tuners (too loose or too tight)
• loose binding
• malfunctioning electronics (best tested with headphones)

 

Absolutely competent list there. Nothing to add really, 'cept maybe to check for hidden/'forgotten' lacquer-peel-points. Fx on the neck or back of the guitar.

 

I have quite a load of experience with long distance vintage buying and always make sure the vibe'n'dialogue is positive before dealing.

Recommend to create a room for Q's, extra pics etc. Let the seller know you are serious'n'decent and do investigate his ditto while communicating.

Con-men, hustlers or loose haystacks tend to reveal themselves sooner or later. Especially if the item they present has issues.

 

Apart from a couple of cases, my personal record is convincing and reassuringly good - so are most of the old Gibsons.

 

 

Ouh, wait, one more thing.

 

Make sure the truss-rod isn't over-turned.

[OldCowboy]

I agree - getting a sense of the person on the selling end of the deal is vital. It's always helped me a lot whether the transaction is face-to-face or long distance. Eventually, no matter how much you know about guitars, there's a point when you have to trust your instincts.

[bobouz]

NO RETURNS!! AS-IS!!

If it's listed as-is with no returns, I always pass. There are simply too many reasons why I might reject a guitar to take that kind of a chance. No matter how well researched, it can easily be a very different ballgame once you're doing a hands-on assessment.

 

The only other thing I would add to the discussion that I don't believe has already been mentioned, is checking for a twisted neck. Yes, I see that a 'straight neck' is listed, but many folks might not go beyond sighting down both sides of the fretboard.

 

The possibility of a twisted neck can often be uncovered by holding the guitar upright & standing over it to sight down the neck from above the peghead, and checking to see if the peghead is turned in relationship to the body. A minimal amount of variation may not be a significant factor, but if things are noticeably off, it's worth investigating further to consider whether or not playability may be effected.

[Murph]

I think a lot of it has to do with your reason to purchase.

 

While Tom buys guitars as a long term investment, others, like myself buy them with the intended purpose being to wear them out.

 

Little cosmetic issues wouldn't mean a thing to me, as there will be more coming. I've never bought a guitar with the idea that I would make money off of it unless I was using it for gigging, in which case it was also deductible.

[Dash_Starkiller]

I think a lot of it has to do with your reason to purchase.

 

While Tom buys guitars as a long term investment, others, like myself buy them with the intended purpose being to wear them out.

 

Little cosmetic issues wouldn't mean a thing to me, as there will be more coming. I've never bought a guitar with the idea that I would make money off of it unless I was using it for gigging, in which case it was also deductible.

 

I agree with you on the point of cosmetics. If I wanted to purchase a vintage guitar I really have no issues with bumps, bruises, nicks, or even a cleated crack. As long as the guitar is structurally sound I like them a bit beat. One thing I do not like are replaced tuners. I hate seeing a vintage acoustic with some huge Grovers put on it and holes all over. I always pass on those. Just my personal preference.

[OldCowboy]

There's really quite a bit of difference between buying used and buying vintage - more all the time since this thread's got me thinking about it all. I've come to the conclusion that putting a few $ into a vintage guitar doesn't bother me nearly as much as with something that's strictly in the used category. Thinking about structural issues seems to be the dominant concern of the thread, and big structural concerns with used stuff is - to me - a huge downer. Cosmetics aside, and no offense meant to anyone who regards crisp appearance as an important factor, the structural condition of a used instrument matters a whole lot more. With vintage, a bit of appropriate repair almost comes with the territory unless you can afford the prices commanded by pristine stuff. I guess what's gnawing at my psyche is that I couldn't comfortably give the same advice to someone looking to buy one as opposed to the other. Does any of that make sense or am I just creating an existential dilemma out of nothing?

[Dash_Starkiller]

There's really quite a bit of difference between buying used and buying vintage - more all the time since this thread's got me thinking about it all. I've come to the conclusion that putting a few $ into a vintage guitar doesn't bother me nearly as much as with something that's strictly in the used category. Thinking about structural issues seems to be the dominant concern of the thread, and big structural concerns with used stuff is - to me - a huge downer. Cosmetics aside, and no offense meant to anyone who regards crisp appearance as an important factor, the structural condition of a used instrument matters a whole lot more. With vintage, a bit of appropriate repair almost comes with the territory unless you can afford the prices commanded by pristine stuff. I guess what's gnawing at my psyche is that I couldn't comfortably give the same advice to someone looking to buy one as opposed to the other. Does any of that make sense or am I just creating an existential dilemma out of nothing?

 

Cowboy, I totally understand where you are coming from. Let's say you find a used 2000s J45 in need of a neck reset, to me that would be a huge turn off unless I suppose they priced it too good to be true. Now let's say you find a 40s/50s J45 in need of a neck reset, perhaps priced around the same as a used J45. I think that would be something most people here would probably jump on, correct? I'm hoping that is what you were trying to convey haha.

[OldCowboy]

Cowboy, I totally understand where you are coming from. Let's say you find a used 2000s J45 in need of a neck reset, to me that would be a huge turn off unless I suppose they priced it too good to be true. Now let's say you find a 40s/50s J45 in need of a neck reset, perhaps priced around the same as a used J45. I think that would be something most people here would probably jump on, correct? I'm hoping that is what you were trying to convey haha.

Absolutely. That's the difference in a nutshell. I hate giving advice to novice buyers because the potential for confusion is so great. Once suggested to a friend that he should look for a used guitar with a solid top. Simple, right? Wrong! He got it into his head that he needed to find a top w/o a center seam. A couple weeks later he was complaining about not finding anything with a 'one piece' top😟

[Murph]

There's really quite a bit of difference between buying used and buying vintage -

 

I don't know. Is there really?

 

I mean, if your are ONLY looking at, for example, Gibsons.

 

Is there a "time" stamp involved? Is it 20 years?

 

30 years?

 

I honestly don't know.

 

The last 10 have zoomed by, and the last 20 seem pretty darned fast.

 

I used to think of Vintage as being from the 40's/50's but now the 70's seem like ancient history to some members here, I'm sure.....

 

What defines "vintage" ?

[bayoubengal1954]

I don't know. Is there really?

 

I mean, if your are ONLY looking at, for example, Gibsons.

 

Is there a "time" stamp involved? Is it 20 years?

 

30 years?

 

I honestly don't know.

 

The last 10 have zoomed by, and the last 20 seem pretty darned fast.

 

I used to think of Vintage as being from the 40's/50's but now the 70's seem like ancient history to some members here, I'm sure.....

 

What defines "vintage" ?

 

In the Martin world it is generally considered to be pre 1970, largely because Indian Rosewood replaced Brazilian Rosewood in 1969. Don't know what Gibsonophiles think. Any thoughts out there?

[j45nick]

In the Martin world it is generally considered to be pre 1970, largely because Indian Rosewood replaced Brazilian Rosewood in 1969. Don't know what Gibsonophiles think. Any thoughts out there?

 

 

Realistically, about the same time, the true beginning of the Norlin era. The slope-J body disappeared in 1969, and you ended up with a bunch of similar square dreads sporting various names that didn't belong.

 

A square dread J-45? Sheesh!

[E-minor7]

What defines "vintage" ?

Always an intriguing and relevant question. The Board must have touched it many times.

I suddenly recalled this one from looooong ago.

 

http://forum.gibson....become-vintage/

Seems we fiddled a bit around it without getting closer. A good opportunity to revitalize the topic.

When is an acoustic guitar old enough to deserve the tag vintage ?

[Dash_Starkiller]

Always an intriguing and relevant question. The Board must have touched it many times.

I suddenly recalled this one from looooong ago.

 

http://forum.gibson....become-vintage/

Seems we fiddled a bit around it without getting closer. A good opportunity to revitalize the topic.

When is an acoustic guitar old enough to deserve the tag vintage ?

 

To me the 70s seems to be the barrier. Anything before and you can add 1k or more to the price. But I guess I'd take a 70s Martin over a 70s Gibson. I actually like the 70s Martin paddle headstock.

[OldCowboy]

All I can do, really, is to abide by my own notion about 'vintage', and that's changed over time (though not by much). A Martin w/o the adj truss rod - pre 1987 I calculate - is getting close these days, although still not as 'there' as 1970's models and earlier. I realize that's pretty arbitrary, and it's not a viewpoint that I'd waste time arguing with anyone. I used to feel that Gibson guitars lost the 'vintage' distinction with the onset of Norlin, but lately I'm prone to include some Norlin models because of their Kalamazoo origin. Other models, not so much. Again, rather an arbitrary view, but it makes sense to me. Some makers (vintage Ovation, anyone?) probably will never make my list. Some Guild guitars (pre-1980?) give me a vintage vibe. I think pre-Westerly Guilds deserve the label. And on it goes....

[Dash_Starkiller]

All I can do, really, is to abide by my own notion about 'vintage', and that's changed over time (though not by much). A Martin w/o the adj truss rod - pre 1987 I calculate - is getting close these days, although still not as 'there' as 1970's models and earlier. I realize that's pretty arbitrary, and it's not a viewpoint that I'd waste time arguing with anyone. I used to feel that Gibson guitars lost the 'vintage' distinction with the onset of Norlin, but lately I'm prone to include some Norlin models because of their Kalamazoo origin. Other models, not so much. Again, rather an arbitrary view, but it makes sense to me. Some makers (vintage Ovation, anyone?) probably will never make my list. Some Guild guitars (pre-1980?) give me a vintage vibe. I think pre-Westerly Guilds deserve the label. And on it goes....

 

Again Cowboy, I agree with your statements. Moatly concerning Ovations haha. Hoboken Guilds I think hold a true vintage character. Heck even the '71 D25 I had was cool. Not great, but cool. I think that recent poat by Dave about the '42 J45 is a great example of what we are all talking about. Also, out of curiosity, what is a Norlin model you like? I admit I love 70s Les Pauls a lot.

[OldCowboy]

Again Cowboy, I agree with your statements. Moatly concerning Ovations haha. Hoboken Guilds I think hold a true vintage character. Heck even the '71 D25 I had was cool. Not great, but cool. I think that recent poat by Dave about the '42 J45 is a great example of what we are all talking about. Also, out of curiosity, what is a Norlin model you like? I admit I love 70s Les Pauls a lot.

When I mentioned Norlin models, I was thinking of 3 and basing it on having seen at least 2 really excellent examples of each. First, the Heritage - have played 3 that I consider outstanding (LOUD, good rosewood tone, decent construction). Second, the Dove, 2 of which I've played and found to be excellent (fine maple boom & chime, though the construction may have been prone to top issues over the years. Third, the J-200. I've played quite a few Norlin examples and have concluded that the sound and build quality were more or less on a par with lots from the 1960's. You have to get past that butt-ugly 70's bridge, get used to the idea that the tone is what I consider 'thin' in most cases, and expect that construction got a bit more care (smaller build lots and higher price) than more common models and, as I've come to do with all of 'em that are pre-Montana, evaluate each example pretty much on its own merits. Granted, some aren't so great, but I've played some real 'flea pounders' from the 1950's and 1960's as well😤

 

That '42 J-45 is the kind of thing that gives some of us great hope in skeptical times!