High tailpiece and wrong neck angle?

[rct]

...because I thought the higher the tail piece was the easier to bend and all of that.

 

In order to be tuned to E the fat string needs to be tightened to some tension point or other, we'll call it Tension Point. The only way to lessen the tension on a string, making it easier to bend, is to de-tune it to a lower note, therefore, a lesser Tension Point.

 

The string does not know or care what it does after it stops at the nut and at the saddle. It does need break, the pulling down onto the nut and onto the saddle so that is stops cleanly at those two points.

 

Raising your stop bar does nothing to the tension of the string if you tune it the same way you did when it was down. I always chuckle loudly when I see that it is SO MUCH EASIER TO BEND WITH LESS TENSION!!!

 

It isn't. The most you will get is more string length to push around, and that added length caused by less stop at nut or saddle is what contributes to the floppy buzzing, usually at the saddle as the string vibrates within the notch because it isn't downward forced enough.

 

I say nut or saddle because the problem is the same at both ends when you don't have enough downward pressure. That downward pressure stops the string from vibrating past the nut or saddle, that can cause a ringing up at the headstock, that's why we would put our Marlbls up there. Some people taped them or put cloth up there back when it was not so easy to just change the nut or whip out yer files and fix it better. Remember, we didn't have an internet with every imaginable freakin mystery tool available to us like the last 15 years or so.

 

You never hear Fender players whining about string tension or wrapping over or lifting stop bars to make it EASIER TO BEND!!! because the string takes a deep dive and stops about a half inch behind and an inch and a half under the saddle. Now THAT is some break angle, the way it is apposed ta be.

 

I know it's unpopular and it defies decades of internet wisdom, but there it is. Yer welcome.

 

rct

[sbpark]

Funny, as the OP of this thread I pretty much never visit this part of the forum anymore, and usually stick to the Acoustic section. I picked up this SG from the shop today after getting it setup and having a bone nut made. A little while ago I also replaced the 490R & T pickups with some SD Seth Lovers and replaced the PCB board with a StewMac Golden Age harness, and shorty after scored an old Gibson "chainsaw" case for $25.

 

Regardless of how the tailpiece height, blah, blah, blah, the guitar is incredible now. Really couldn't ask for anything more. especially since I got the guitar for like $600, and ended up selling the original pickups and PCB board and crappy case it came in.

 

When I was there dropping off the guitar there was a guy right behind me dropping off a '67 or '68 SG that needed the nut replaced. Was interesting to see old and new side by side.

[rct]

Well, if the added length contributes to floppiness (I agree), and increased possible buzzing, would that not mean the string has more 'play', so to speak?

And if so, wouldn't a bend become slinkier aka easier? ...or did I misunderstand your point?

 

I don't know about "easier", I only know that frequency of a string is complex maff that relies on the tension on the string. To get an open note, G for instance, you need the exact same tension on that length of steel regardless of what the string does past the nut or the saddle. If you use that as your guide, it can't possibly be less tension if it is tuned to the same frequency on the same scale length.

 

BTW, would you agree that Medium Jumbo frets make it easier to bend, versus Gibson's current love affair with Medium and Low frets?

 

I don't know. I only know that if you want to be a guitar player that goes out and does whatever needs to be done tonight, you need strength. There should be no "easy", it should all be as difficult as possible, for me. Control is everything. It is always better to be aware of how hard you are moving the strings, for so many reasons, than it is to try and make it as easy as possible. The guitar won't respond the same for starters, and consistent response, knowing your guitar like it's another arm, is really important.

 

I mash them into the fingerboard no matter what the height of the frets, so I probably prefer them a little low so as not to futz up the intonation all over the place. Some folks like them high, they arpeggiate and articulate much better than me, they dance across the tops of the frets the way we are supposed to, allegedly. I don't. I like the fingerboard pushing back, friction helps me maintain control over that string when it is at the top of the bend and time to wiggle it, keeps intonation right. For me. I don't know what Gibson is doing for frets these days, I traded off my last two Gibsons earlier this year and they won't be back.

 

I'm thinking about getting a 2018 LP Tribute, but those frets scare me. I love big huge bends, ala Billy Jones (from The Outlaws).

 

huh. Like Prisoner. Do you know me?

 

When we opened for them guys I did get to look at his and Hughies guitars, but I didn't get to play them like I got to play Dickies. Dickey's. You know, that guy.

 

So anyway, Billy had some pretty...uh, grungy guitars. Nothing fabulous about any of them, ordinary Les Pauls. When he used one of Hughies strats he over bent, over wiggled, lofted notes up there and held them way too long and sounded just like...Billy Jones.

Only one of them guys ever, he's the Jeff Beck of Southern Rock, you hear that guy and you know it's him.

 

Last time I saw them, 2008 I think? 2005 maybe. Any way, guy named Chris Anderson did the Billy Jones parts and man he killed Prisoner. I wept. We drank, we agreed that we were of the few the just adored Billy. Hughie said he hired Chris to do the Billy parts. I shoulda got that job. Damn it.

 

I really want your opinion.

 

Well that's different!

 

In my opinion and experience, I wouldn't worry about the height of the frets. I have a pretty high fretted tele and it doesn't bother me even using it between sets with my #1 Tele who has frets worn down to nearly needing a refret. Learn to play them all and spend two chords adjusting. Better to be stronger than you need to be than not strong enough, better to be aware of your intonation always and not just on guitars that aren't as "easy" to fret as others. No matter what the fret height, if you want to cop Billy Jones you need strength and control on whatever guitar you are using. Hughie sure didn't care about frets, he blazed across all of them.

 

Man I miss them guys. Someday, in another state down south...

 

rct

[rct]

BIBA is best record ever made. Ever.

 

They were committed to some shows around here when that record just exploded and they got busy, fast. So they moved some dates here back and came back to do three college type outdoor things on flatbeds and somehow the band I was in got to open. It was awesome.

 

The most common characteristic of all of my favorite guitar players and probably all of everyone else's favorites is strength and control. Betts has 3/8" at 12th, and has always used 12s. His guitar was unplayable to us 17 year old stoners. What a guy. Hughie and Billy the same, pretty high strings, pickups down. Hughie used fatter strings than Billy, but Billy used his guitars frequently so it didn't matter to him.

 

Party on. Billy is a tough guy to knock off but man it is satisfying hitting those big stupid wiggles in Green Grass. And the end of Stick Around on the live record. And oh, yeah, the rest on that record.

 

I gotta get me some Bring It Back in my head right now.

 

rct

[rct]

I have watched that one quite a few times. Good to see you!

 

There is a radio interview somewhere that somebody recorded where they ask Hughie and Billy what song they are most proud of.

 

Man Of The Hour, one I would love to do with a band but have not gotten the opportunity. All that stuff them guys did and they were happiest about that big singing song, the guitars were nothing compared to them two singing. Go figure.

 

rct

[rct]

Oh sure, PM away!

 

rct

[Wild Bill 212]

In order to be tuned to E the fat string needs to be tightened to some tension point or other, we'll call it Tension Point. The only way to lessen the tension on a string, making it easier to bend, is to de-tune it to a lower note, therefore, a lesser Tension Point.

 

The string does not know or care what it does after it stops at the nut and at the saddle. It does need break, the pulling down onto the nut and onto the saddle so that is stops cleanly at those two points.

 

Raising your stop bar does nothing to the tension of the string if you tune it the same way you did when it was down. I always chuckle loudly when I see that it is SO MUCH EASIER TO BEND WITH LESS TENSION!!!

 

It isn't. The most you will get is more string length to push around, and that added length caused by less stop at nut or saddle is what contributes to the floppy buzzing, usually at the saddle as the string vibrates within the notch because it isn't downward forced enough.

 

I say nut or saddle because the problem is the same at both ends when you don't have enough downward pressure. That downward pressure stops the string from vibrating past the nut or saddle, that can cause a ringing up at the headstock, that's why we would put our Marlbls up there. Some people taped them or put cloth up there back when it was not so easy to just change the nut or whip out yer files and fix it better. Remember, we didn't have an internet with every imaginable freakin mystery tool available to us like the last 15 years or so.

 

You never hear Fender players whining about string tension or wrapping over or lifting stop bars to make it EASIER TO BEND!!! because the string takes a deep dive and stops about a half inch behind and an inch and a half under the saddle. Now THAT is some break angle, the way it is apposed ta be.

 

I know it's unpopular and it defies decades of internet wisdom, but there it is. Yer welcome.

 

rct

 

A Luthier that has operated & worked as a GIBSON AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER Technician/Manager in Philly for damn near 50 years recently noticed I had the STOP-TAILon my ES-335 almost completely flat touching the body of the Guitar. After he mentioned noticing this, His exact words to me were: "If you raise the STOP BAR the strings will be easier to bend ...." ....I just responded that I always make sure the strings clear the back of the bridge plate because I have seen one too many failed bridges and none of my Guitars will suffer that fate.I did not ask why he said it BUT NOW that I see your comment I am certainly going to ask him next time I see him....and after re-reading your comment I am not sure if you agree or disagree with that statement.

 

 

It doesn't matter that the ES-335 in question here has an ABR-1 bridge and the strings clear the back of the bridge plate if the STOP-TAIL is 7/16" above the body of the Guitar (I use 7/16" as a random measurement), it is how I decided to set the guitar up and thats that.

I do, however, see in your comment that a certain Gunslinger named 'BETTS' has his string action at the 12TH Fret set @ 3/8" and I have to ask you if that is a typo ? I just looked at my guitar with a string action gauge at the 12TH Fret and from the looks of it, THERE IS NO WAY THAT I COULD SET THE EXPLORER I HAVE IN MY HANDS RIGHT NOW @ 3/8" STRING ACTION @ 12TH FRET.....imma thinkin' MAYBE U meant 1/8" ? which is still abnormally high but could probably be done.

 

[Black Dog]

 

...replaced the 490R & T pickups with some SD Seth Lovers...the guitar is incredible now...

 

 

The Seth Lover's are very good pickups.

[rct]

I do, however, see in your comment that a certain Gunslinger named 'BETTS' has his string action at the 12TH Fret set @ 3/8" and I have to ask you if that is a typo ? I just looked at my guitar with a string action gauge at the 12TH Fret and from the looks of it, THERE IS NO WAY THAT I COULD SET THE EXPLORER I HAVE IN MY HANDS RIGHT NOW @ 3/8" STRING ACTION @ 12TH FRET.....imma thinkin' MAYBE U meant 1/8" ? which is still abnormally high but could probably be done.

 

No typo, he uses really heavy strings and likes them high. Sure, 3/8 might be a tiny exaggeration, but not much. I like them high as well, not that high, but much higher than most. Pickups down, strings up, that's how to make a guitar sound good!

 

rct

[rct]

A Luthier that has operated & worked as a GIBSON AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER Technician/Manager in Philly for damn near 50 years recently noticed I had the STOP-TAILon my ES-335 almost completely flat touching the body of the Guitar. After he mentioned noticing this, His exact words to me were: "If you raise the STOP BAR the strings will be easier to bend ...." ....I just responded that I always make sure the strings clear the back of the bridge plate because I have seen one too many failed bridges and none of my Guitars will suffer that fate.I did not ask why he said it BUT NOW that I see your comment I am certainly going to ask him next time I see him....and after re-reading your comment I am not sure if you agree or disagree with that statement.

 

Prove it to yourself. Get your guitar out and tune it up to useful pitch. Raise the stop up to where it will be "easier". Check your tuning. You will have to restore the tension you just lost by lifting the bar. I don't know how returning the strings to precisely the same tension they were is any "easier" to play, but I'm ok with whomever believes that.

 

rct

[Wild Bill 212]

Prove it to yourself. Get your guitar out and tune it up to useful pitch. Raise the stop up to where it will be "easier". Check your tuning. You will have to restore the tension you just lost by lifting the bar. I don't know how returning the strings to precisely the same tension they were is any "easier" to play, but I'm ok with whomever believes that.

 

rct

Thanks for not answering my question,ppfff. .... FFS, I know how to raise a stop-tail...thanks !

[rct]

Thanks for not answering my question,ppfff. .... FFS, I know how to raise a stop-tail...thanks !

 

Yer welcome. Next time read all the words, you'll have much better interactions with people if you do.

 

rct

[Wild Bill 212]

NO, there won’t be a “Next time”. I asked you a simple questionn. I was not rude about it either. You want to answer it ? ignore it ? or not? That is up to you.REALLY, IDC... , but your telling me what to do is a real LAUGH-er, as ate your predictions regarding the future.!

[Wild Bill 212]

LOL

1543800105[/url]' post='1965564']

Yer welcome. Next time read all the words, you'll have much better interactions with people if you do.

 

rct

[Eracer_Team]

For a string to vibrate at a certain pitch it needs to be at a certain tension for that guage (thickness) of string regardless of TOM or Stop Tail height.

 

You want easier bending, go lighter strings.

 

This being said, people like Joe Bonamassa swear by "top wrapping " the tail piece to reduce the break angle over the TOM, to give a "feeling" of reduced tension.

[Black Dog]

The tension in a string is determined by the gauge, tuning and scale length. That's it.

 

The break angle will determine the downward force of the string on the bridge/saddle. The sharper the break angle, the greater the downward force.

 

When you bend a string, two things happen. You stretch the string, increasing the tension and changing the pitch. Since the string is not fixed to the saddle (or the nut), when you stretch it, it will move/slide on the saddle and in the nut slot. The more downward force there is at the saddle, the more resistance there is to that movement. That's what makes it easier to bend when you decrease the break angle. People call it less tension but that's not really correct.

[NighthawkChris]

The tension in a string is determined by the gauge, tuning and scale length. That's it.

 

The break angle will determine the downward force of the string on the bridge/saddle. The sharper the break angle, the greater the downward force.

 

When you bend a string, two things happen. You stretch the string, increasing the tension and changing the pitch. Since the string is not fixed to the saddle (or the nut), when you stretch it, it will move/slide on the saddle and in the nut slot. The more downward force there is at the saddle, the more resistance there is to that movement. That's what makes it easier to bend when you decrease the break angle. People call it less tension but that's not really correct.

 

Black Dog, I believe exactly what you have put in this message here. This is 100% what is happening. This is why people lubricate their nut slots and even put grease on the bridge saddles and such at times to reduce this friction, because when bends, trem dives/pulls are enacted, the strings tuning benefits from the lack of friction to go back into tune. This is why my Jeff Beck Stratocaster has an LSR roller nut to allow for trem dives/pulls and the tuning doesn't go way out on me that easily due to the string(s) not getting bound up in a nut slot as they easily slide through the slots on trem action. Anyhow, I digress... Black Dog, thank you for pointing this out!

 

Now whether or not it is OK for the tailpiece to touch the back of the TOM bridge, that's another debate, but with this in mind, I tend to make sure that I raise the tailpiece to have the strings just clear the bridge - i.e. strings make no contact with TOM bridge. I mean, who really cares how my guitar is set up and I can care less what anyone else does... If they ask me what I do, I have explained it here.

[Black Dog]

GREAT explanation.

 

That should just maybe probably uh,, about WRAP this........topic up, eh??!

 

If not, I'll start babbling about The Outlaws again!!!

 

The Outlaws are awesome and "babbling" about them shall never be outlawed.

 

Henceforth, on this forum, The Outlaws shall be considered the opposite of this: