Gibson Guitar Board: Starting to wonder, if I love the "idea" of a Les Paul, more than the guitar, itself? - Gibson Guitar Board

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Starting to wonder, if I love the "idea" of a Les Paul, more than the guitar, itself? SG's have (almost) taken over, for me.

#21 User is offline   kidblast 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:23 PM

I ended up with three Danelectros - all with broken strings! The strings were extremely thin and were irreplaceable.

huh??????

so... was he smokin too much crack or. --- you couldn't restring a danelectro bass?????
/Ray
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#22 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 01:10 PM

View Postkidblast, on 31 July 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

I ended up with three Danelectros - all with broken strings! The strings were extremely thin and were irreplaceable.

huh??????

so... was he smokin too much crack or. --- you couldn't restring a danelectro bass?????

Don't know about the Danelectros specifically, but replacement of bass strings is a hassle with my Fender Mustang Bass. You might think it is just a short-scale bass like any other, but it isn't. The string portions between bridge saddles and ferrules on the back are that long that most manufacturers' E4 and A3 short-scale strings won't reach full taping diameter from bridge to nut. On the other hand, most medium-scale strings would reach full diameter to the tuner capstans what causes unstable tuning and possibly break of string. Fender strings do match, of course, but they discontinued the gauge I use and I still haven't found appropriate substitutes. :unsure:
DVCVNT VOLENTEM FATA NOLENTEM TRAHVNT
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#23 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 02:10 PM

Here is my take on playability, tone and look of Les Paul single-cut versus SG. Most I write here reflects my experiences with the four Gibson SGs, the five Gibson and one Epiphone Les Paul guitars of mine.

So – playability first... [smile]

Like with Explorers, Gibson didn't have a good hand at selecting positions of the upper strap buttons on Les Paul and SG as well.

Les Paul guitars may easily slip off the strap when positioned with an up-angle. The solution is using strap locks and thus a comparatively easy fix. The weight of Les Paul guitars has never been a problem for me.

On SGs, the upper strap button makes the upper cutaway virtually useless, by its position itself as well as through the strap obstructing it to those who would like using it for the thumb.

The SGs' centre of gravity is quite debatable. Though not all of them are so neck-heavy that neck-diving occurs, next to none will stay at a considerable up-angle. Then there is the far reach to the lowest frets given by design (except 1970's SGs with the deeper neck set). These points combined call for either wearing an SG as far up as possible, practically right under the chin, or putting the fretting hand's thumb from the back of the neck over the fretboard, and either supporting the neck with the fretting hand or keeping the body down with the striking hand's forearm. I do the latter. Straps with a good grip, appropriate clothing and keeping still are of help but to my experiences not a complete solution.

When about tone, that of a Les Paul is fatter, and the sustain on the highest frets is superior. (This includes my Epiphone Les Paul.) The SG tone is punchier due to faster note decay. As always and with all other guitar models, I use Les Pauls and SGs depending on the song. Whatever supports my music best, is right! [biggrin]

As for looks, it is all about taste. I like the shapes of Les Paul and SG as well, and I think they both look nice with a finish I like. [thumbup]
DVCVNT VOLENTEM FATA NOLENTEM TRAHVNT
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#24 User is offline   charlie brown 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 03:07 PM

Well, I've never had an issue, with "neck dive" on ANY of my SG's (current, or the one's I had as a "kid!").
I guess, I've just been Lucky, that way? That issue seems to come up, here, a LOT! But, the only SG I
ever played that had noticeable "neck dive" was a "special" withe the crescent moon inlays, back in the
early 2000's. I played 3 different ones, in 3 different stores, and they ALL had really FAT necks, and
serious neck dive. But, none of the other SG's I played, in those stores, and none of mine, have ever
had even a hint of that. So...??? :-k [unsure] [tongue]

As to tone, and playability, I've never had any negative experiences, with either! There are some slight
differences, as "Cap" indicated, but I think of those as Good differences, not as problems. I agree, too...
that each has their respective strengths, and applications, for certain songs. Just as a Strat, or Tele,
or ES-335, Gretsch or Ric, can.

But, I still love the weight, and the upper fret access, of SG's, and Double Cut Les Paul's. [biggrin]


CB
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#25 User is offline   Twang Gang 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 04:12 PM

It's probably just a phase CB - most teenagers go through several of them [biggrin] You'll grow out of it.

I played the same LP for about 25 years - it was like an extension of my arms. Then I made a 180 degree turn and went to a Strat for several years. Next I switched to an SG as my main guitar, then to a 336, then to a Taylor Solid Body electric, and eventually back to Les Paul.

I think you just get a feel for a certain guitar for awhile, and then it can change and you want to play something else. The weight and upper fret access are justifications for saying you want to play the SGs more. If weight is really a problem you can get an ultra modern weight relief LP, or a Les Paul Lite or Less that only weigh 6.5 pounds. As to the upper fret access, how often do you really go up to the 20th fret or beyond? On the lower strings those same notes are available lower on the neck using a different string. I play in a 3 piece band right now and I don't go way up the neck very often - certainly not often enough to say I can't play this model guitar.

As to the way they look that doesn't enter into it for me. I play my guitars to perform and get a certain sound. I can't really see what they look like while they are strapped on. Not to say I don't want a good looking guitar, the finish is a huge consideration when buying. When actually playing though I can't really see it very well.

As to tone I found SG and Les Paul surprising close. The SG seemed a bit brighter, but in a loud band live on a stage the subtle differences I heard didn't amount to much. As long as my guitar (LP or SG) sounded different from my bandmates Strat or Tele we were good. If I was primarily a recording artist that would be more of a factor.

Play your SGs for now as that is what you feel is right for you. But wait a year or so and you'll find you're back to the Les Pauls or the Rick.
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#26 User is offline   charlie brown 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:50 PM

[biggrin] [thumbup]


CB
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#27 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:00 PM

View PostTwang Gang, on 31 July 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

It's probably just a phase CB - most teenagers go through several of them [biggrin] You'll grow out of it. ...

I also have those phases in making music since decades. That's how the guitar thing keeps me young, you see [laugh]
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#28 User is offline   AlanH 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:32 AM

I have a first run 'Les Paul Studio '50s Tribute Humbuckers' from 2011. It has a pre-seizure rosewood board, a two piece light back and is chambered. I find this guitar more ergonomically comfortable than my SG Special Faded because of its light weight and thin Studio body, whereas the SG seems more like a flat slab, albeit light. The SG does, of course, have the better upper fret access.

I really feel I can throw my Studio round (not that I do) because the chambering makes it incredibly light. You also get a snappier sound akin to the top end bite that SGs give you but the LP warmth and fatness is still there. The SG has the faster of the two necks but it does suffer the odd bit of tuning instability with that long neck. I always seem to have to retune it when I get it back out.

If you haven't already done so Charlie, do try a chambered LP.


Alan


Guitars:
Yamaha SE350; Gibson SG Special Faded; Epiphone Wildkat (Unsung); Gibson Les Paul Studio '50s Tribute Humbuckers; Ibanez RG 1570 Prestige; Peavey Millenium BXP4 bass; Gibson Les Paul Signature 2014

Sold:
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus with JB and Jazz; Epiphone Les Paul Studio Deluxe with 490R and 490T; Kramer Pacer Classic 2010; Charvel USA Pro San Dimas Style 1 -2H

Amps:
Marshall DSL40C; Peavey Royal 8 Valve King; Ashdown Tourbus 10W bass amp

Pedals:
Digitech Bad Monkey; Tone City Golden Plexi; Biyang RV-10 & CO-10; EH Pocket Metal Muff Nano; Marshall Regenerator (Modulation); MXR Carbon Copy; Artec SE-GEQ; Joyo British, Ultimate Drive, Sweet Baby & US Dream

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Club: http://forum.gibson....ker-model-club/
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Useful restringing vid I found: http://www.youtube.c...B&v=Oclc4MHWbzw

.......
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#29 User is offline   merciful-evans 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 03:00 AM

Good question CB.

I have always loved the look of SGs.
I have never liked the look of Les Pauls.

Iíve never owned an SG.

But I bought a Les Paul 3 years ago. Itís the 2015 Less Plus model. I knew that if I ever went for a Les Paul, it would be this model, and it seemed likely Gibson would never reissue it. The clincher was it was massively discounted (49%) brand new.

I last tried an SG a couple of years back. It was a Deluxe. The owner wanted my Fylde acoustic and offered the Deluxe as part exchange together with some money. I spent a few minutes trying to get a usable sound from the SG but failed, and TBH itís what I expected. To me SGs sound muddy as soon as any gain is introduced. I donít use much gain at all, but even a modest amount results in a dip in clarity.

To be fair, all humbucker pickups need careful adjustment to avoid (or minimise) this, but on the Les Paul or ES 339 I can get the definition I want.

My favourite SG players of yesteryear (Mick Abrahams, Frank Zappa) have this muddy sound. So I think itís likely the guitar design is responsible.
Hagstrom Deuce / Fylde Acoustic / Variax Standard / Gibson ES-339 / Gibson LP Less+ / PRS SE Custom24 / Hofner HCT-J17 / Camps Spanish / Jackson Soloist / Rickenbacker 650 /Squier Esprit
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#30 User is offline   GnR 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:44 AM

I saw it mentioned somewhere that the SG is the highest selling Gibson model of all time... that can't be right can it?
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#31 User is offline   charlie brown 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

Interesting M.E.! I'm a Mick Abrahams/Blodwyn Pig fan, too! [thumbup] His SG had P-90's. And, for awhile, because of his particular tone,
I thought he was using a Les Paul! So, when I finally saw a photo/video, there it was, a Les Paul SG Special. There are photos of
him playing a late '50's (or 1960?) Les Paul, as well. I guess, nowadays, he has his made in England "Vintage Icon" brand "SG,"
with P-90's.

SG's (to me) have a slightly "nasal" Mid-range bump, in tone, compared to a like pickup (and cap's) Les Paul. I attributed that,
to the thinner slab body, vs the thicker, carved maple capped, body. But, I never really considered the SG tone to be "muddy,"
or any "muddier" than any "humbucker equipped Gibson. The P-90's have more roundness, and "sparkle," to me. But, maybe that's
just Me??? [tongue] [biggrin]


CB
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#32 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:16 AM

View Postrct, on 30 July 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

I'm exactly the same about my SG, 6 years later. It's my first SG, it was a great idea, unfortunately not a great neck for me. It's going out in a couple weeks.

rct

I can relate to that. After a guitar swap, getting adjusted to the SG neck is tougher than vice versa and between all other guitar models I use.


View Postmerciful-evans, on 01 August 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

...

To be fair, all humbucker pickups need careful adjustment to avoid (or minimise) this, but on the Les Paul or ES 339 I can get the definition I want.

My favourite SG players of yesteryear (Mick Abrahams, Frank Zappa) have this muddy sound. So I think it’s likely the guitar design is responsible.

Well, one can make any guitar sound muddy. Reverend Billy Gibbons easily does it even with a Telecaster using the bridge pickup only [biggrin]

At least as far as the Frank Zappa "Roxy" SG is concerned, I can't complain at all about muddiness, regardless if humbucking or coil-split. The muddiness of my 1978 S-G Standard came from the stock 100 kOhms tone pots that ate up all the clarity and punch.

Your reference to pickup adjustment is 100% correct. When about tone, less pickup height is more. :)


View PostGnR, on 01 August 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

I saw it mentioned somewhere that the SG is the highest selling Gibson model of all time... that can't be right can it?

To my knowledge there are no exact numbers, but the SG is pretty likely the highest selling Gibson model of all time by number of items. The SG is the only Gibson solid-body guitar that has neither been discontinued nor has had a considerable production hiatus.
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#33 User is offline   merciful-evans 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:26 AM

View Postcharlie brown, on 01 August 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Interesting M.E.! I'm a Mick Abrahams/Blodwyn Pig fan, too! [thumbup] His SG had P-90's. And, for awhile, because of his particular tone,
I thought he was using a Les Paul! So, when I finally saw a photo/video, there it was, a Les Paul SG Special. There are photos of
him playing a late '50's (or 1960?) Les Paul, as well. I guess, nowadays, he has his made in England "Vintage Icon" brand "SG,"
with P-90's.

SG's (to me) have a slightly "nasal" Mid-range bump, in tone, compared to a like pickup (and cap's) Les Paul. I attributed that,
to the thinner slab body, vs the thicker, carved maple capped, body. But, I never really considered the SG tone to be "muddy,"
or any "muddier" than any "humbucker equipped Gibson. The P-90's have more roundness, and "sparkle," to me. But, maybe that's
just Me??? [tongue] [biggrin]


CB


P90s? I didnt know that about Mick A's guitar.

Its probably more likely that its 'just me' (rather than you). That doubt is the reason I tried out the Deluxe at all. I was prepared to be proven wrong. Hopeful even.

As it stands, I am either right, or a victim of my own self fulfilling prophecy. It took me 46 years to get around to getting a Gibson at all. Humbuckerphobia is certainly a major factor.
Hagstrom Deuce / Fylde Acoustic / Variax Standard / Gibson ES-339 / Gibson LP Less+ / PRS SE Custom24 / Hofner HCT-J17 / Camps Spanish / Jackson Soloist / Rickenbacker 650 /Squier Esprit
Miele S5 Power 2200w Vacuum Cleaner
Makita BO3710 Finishing Sander
Verdict 6" vernier scale calipers
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Posted Image put the kettle on
I sometimes think; therefore I am intermittent
*
my band BLOWN OUT
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#34 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:43 AM

View Postmerciful-evans, on 01 August 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

...

As it stands, I am either right, or a victim of my own self fulfilling prophecy. It took me 46 years to get around to getting a Gibson at all. Humbuckerphobia is certainly a major factor.

For me it was just the other way round: I didn't own any Fender before they came up with noiseless pickups.

For many years I intensely used guitars with single-coil pickups, my Ibanez RG430, basically a Strat-inspired guitar with Ibanez Edge Floyd Rose system, and a Weimann Blues Bird ES guitar with a pair of Seymour Duncan P90 pickups stock. The Ibanez has reverse wound/reverse polarity middle pickup making the pickups combinations humbucking, but the P90 hum is just poor. Since 32 years I would want to replace them with noiseless ones, but it would call for deeper routings, and I'm quite reluctant to have this done.

Anyway, perhaps I would buy a Gibson with the now long extinct noiseless P100 pickups, but I'm done with P90s.
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#35 User is offline   Pin 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:52 AM

I have only a "lowly" Epiphone SG but it plays well and feel great. IMO nothing out there come close to the sheer accessibility of the SG.
GUITARS: 1978 Gibson Les Paul 25 / 50; Gibson ES345 1959 Reissue; 1974 Yamaha AE12 jazz box; Yamaha SG2000: Fender "Roland Ready" Strat; Epiphone Les Paul '56; Epiphone SG400; HK Steinberger copy; Cimar Classical.
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#36 User is offline   charlie brown 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:17 AM

View Postmerciful-evans, on 01 August 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

P90s? I didnt know that about Mick A's guitar.

Its probably more likely that its 'just me' (rather than you). That doubt is the reason I tried out the Deluxe at all. I was prepared to be proven wrong. Hopeful even.

As it stands, I am either right, or a victim of my own self fulfilling prophecy. It took me 46 years to get around to getting a Gibson at all. Humbuckerphobia is certainly a major factor.



Yeah, there are old Youtube (Live) videos, of him with Blodwyn Pig, and playing his SG, but for some (odd) reason, he's often
obscured, behind the drummer or the drummer's cymbals, and it's hard to see. But, on some frames, it's there.

Here's one, of the "Mick Abrahams Band" doing "Greyhound Bus!"

https://search.aol.c...n&v_t=comsearch


CB
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#37 User is offline   AlanH 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:43 AM

I'm not so sure Mr Young Jr would say his SG is muddy.....




Alan


Guitars:
Yamaha SE350; Gibson SG Special Faded; Epiphone Wildkat (Unsung); Gibson Les Paul Studio '50s Tribute Humbuckers; Ibanez RG 1570 Prestige; Peavey Millenium BXP4 bass; Gibson Les Paul Signature 2014

Sold:
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus with JB and Jazz; Epiphone Les Paul Studio Deluxe with 490R and 490T; Kramer Pacer Classic 2010; Charvel USA Pro San Dimas Style 1 -2H

Amps:
Marshall DSL40C; Peavey Royal 8 Valve King; Ashdown Tourbus 10W bass amp

Pedals:
Digitech Bad Monkey; Tone City Golden Plexi; Biyang RV-10 & CO-10; EH Pocket Metal Muff Nano; Marshall Regenerator (Modulation); MXR Carbon Copy; Artec SE-GEQ; Joyo British, Ultimate Drive, Sweet Baby & US Dream

Sound clip: http://soundcloud.co...nhgtr1/alankob2
Video: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=c9rI5yP4v_k
Club: http://forum.gibson....ker-model-club/
Reviews: Wildkat; Pacer Classic
Useful restringing vid I found: http://www.youtube.c...B&v=Oclc4MHWbzw

.......
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#38 User is offline   Allenjason95 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:25 PM

View Postkidblast, on 31 July 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

I ended up with three Danelectros - all with broken strings! The strings were extremely thin and were irreplaceable.

huh??????

so... was he smokin too much crack or. --- you couldn't restring a danelectro bass?????


It's been a long time since I read that story but I think at the time in England those type of strings were impossible to find. The shop he bought the bass at didn't stock the strings required for the Danelectro bass so Every time he broke a string he'd have to just buy a whole new bass.

I'm sure that story requires a lot of grains of salt anyway.
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#39 User is offline   jdgm 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 03:18 PM

Well I am not done with my Les Paul or P90s.....tsk!

CB - I humbly, respectfully suggest you send me yours (all of them, or at least the nice gold one please) and then see how much you prefer the idea to the guitar itself...[laugh] [laugh]

Really gentlemen!

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#40 User is offline   charlie brown 

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 03:48 PM

View Postjdgm, on 01 August 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Well I am not done with my Les Paul or P90s.....tsk!

CB - I humbly, respectfully suggest you send me yours (all of them, or at least the nice gold one please) and then see how much you prefer the idea to the guitar itself...[laugh] [laugh]

Really gentlemen!

Posted Image



[lol] LOL...Nice Try, jdgm!! =D> But, I'll be keeping my Les Paul's! [razz] [biggrin]

BUT, If the beautiful one you posted, was mine...the first thing I would do, is put a "Staple" Alnico V P-90 in the neck position! [biggrin]


CB
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