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J-200 Koa

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I've always thought Gibson was missing out on an opportunity to build on its Dobro line. The guitar itself is less than impressive but the Dobro name has a lot of value and very under-utilized at the moment in my opinion.

 

Then there's the Mastertone banjo. The standard at which all other bluegrass banjos are judged. Have they resumed production on these yet?

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We all need to take a step back and try to remember that Henry J. bought a bankrupt Gibson company. Yes kids Gibson was bankrupt and Henry fought like hell to buy it and bring it back to greatness. No one ever fought harder to buy a completely bankrupt business that Henry and Dave. It was slow and painful as he was pretty much underfunded from the very start. He managed to restructure and slowly brought the various divisions on line. We need to give credit where credit is due and much of the success can be attributed To Henry's silent but very capable partner David Berryman.

 

Going from complete bankruptcy to where we are today is a monumental achievement. Henry is a visionary and he sees the writing on the wall for all wood products. He decided that Gibson's only chance for survival was to, yet once again diversify. Thus the move into the electronics end of the music business. One could imagine him going into real-estate or something similar but he wanted to stay in the music business.

 

Are some of the decisions controversial? Of course, but we must all remember that his vision is not necessarily ours. His problem was to try to keep the Gibson brand relevant in the face of some terrible market challenges. These challenges are real and no fault of Henry's management. The wood challenge is a huge hurdle to navigate and he has done well even prospering in the face of a very hostile federal government. We all remember the unprecedented raid on his corporate headquarters. Jack booted gestapo agents with automatic weapons attacked his office personnel. Good grief.

 

His biggest challenge is the change in the culture that the computer age has brought to all of us. Kids aren't into music anymore and parents and school districts are following along. School music programs are being eliminated left and right and the home environment is changing. There was a time in the far distant past when there was a piano in almost every living room. Hell some of us can remember the time when the organ business was flourishing. There were entire stores that specialized in home organs. That is all gone and it has been replaced by computer stores and entire retail outlets devoted to the weapon of choice. The cell phone.

 

Guys like Henry and Dave must try to keep ahead of the current trends and even though they seem silly some drastic steps need to be taken to keep the guitar business fresh and relevant. The traditionalist like many of us here are truly put off by electronic gadgets being put on our very sacred guitars. Well... The guitar business must look ahead to the next generation and they must find their niche or die.

 

We don't like to think of ourselves as dinosaurs but we are. We are not buying guitars like we used to and most of us have way to many as it is. The young kids need to keep the business going and they are not. Henry is trying to diversify the company so that he can keep the outmoded business model from entirely collapsing.

 

Big challenge for sure but remember this man and his partner brought Gibson back from the grave and he has made it a world leader in the music business in a few short years. Flying in the face of a hostile government and a changing society. Don't count him out just yet. He has the skill and vision to keep our company going strong for years.

 

I for one am tired of all the negative energy heaped on this company and it's owners. We all need to step back and enjoy the sausage and try not to get bogged down in the messy business of the making of it. So... Thank you Henry J. and Dave B. Keep up the good work.

 

Remember we all have a stake in the business so we need to buy a new guitar from time to time.

 

No. This sounds nice but no. There are no excuses for robot tuners.

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Spent a lot of money with this company over the years and wish them no ill.

 

But as regards this:

 

"The wood challenge is a huge hurdle to navigate and he has done well even prospering in the face of a very hostile federal government. We all remember the unprecedented raid on his corporate headquarters. Jack booted gestapo agents with automatic weapons attacked his office personnel. Good grief."

 

You play with fire, you get burned. And when you lie about it, get caught and then try to politicize it you deserve whatever's coming to you. I became a Martin buyer after that.

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No. This sounds nice but no. There are no excuses for robot tuners.

 

 

IVe known Hogeye for many years. He knows a thing or two we will never Know..... . I agree with him... no sense in doubting what hes said..

 

But those robot tuners, and changing neck thickness on very popular (well selling) guitars was not a cool thing.. alot of back lash from alot of well paying customers said so as well.

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You play with fire, you get burned. And when you lie about it, get caught and then try to politicize it you deserve whatever's coming to you. I became a Martin buyer after that.

Agreed. I lost a ton of respect for Henry when he went on his political Cry-A-Thon. My guess is that any financial distress the company finds itself in today has very little to do with the wood they lost, compared to a host of business decisions made by the company in the past few decades.

 

Dumping long-time dealers for the big-box model, trying to become a "Lifestyle" brand, acquisitions that went nowhere, robot tuners, letting dedicated & gifted employees walk out the door, etc.

 

I'm thankful that the brand is still with us, but maybe some new blood needs to be circulated into the corporate picture.

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I'd guess alot comes from Gibson marketing policy.

 

Where i live in France, i'm seeing more and more shops not offering Gibsons anymore and replace their gear with other brands.

On other side, Martin is always here.

 

Why ? Because they're pissed at what it takes to sell Gibson gear. They told me Gibson asks shops to acquire too much stock/gear and they can't put up with that, because they do not have enough sells to get to the level asked by Gibson... They dislike Gibson marketing policy.

 

That's just weird because i'm willing to hang in these shops to try a few of em but just can't because there's almost nothing left for sell as Gibsons.

One shop had a full stand of Gibson strings/small gears/picks etc... but they don't anymore, they removed everything, even the picks !

So lately i bought other picks, like Boss, Fenders... since they had no Gibson for sale, while i usually use these...

I wanted to buy strings, but they had nothing left but the late stocks (no medium strings anymore) and the guy said he was closing this stand.

 

Last thing he said... : "Gibson gear is really good. But we can't put up with their business policy".

 

Just sad.

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We all need to take a step back and try to remember that Henry J. bought a bankrupt Gibson company.

 

The wood challenge is a huge hurdle to navigate and he has done well even prospering in the face of a very hostile federal government. We all remember the unprecedented raid on his corporate headquarters. Jack booted gestapo agents with automatic weapons attacked his office personnel. Good grief.

 

While I agree that Henry is to be credited with and respected for saving the company, I disagree about the characterization of the federal government as hostile. Here is the explanation of the event that I provided to the New York Times in October 2011 and August 2012:

 

"The most dramatic example, though, features a large scale manufacturer, the Gibson Corporation. The company has twice had wood and guitars seized. The first seizure occurred in 2009. Gibson and the other two of the “Big Three” U.S. guitar makers, Martin and Taylor, toured Madagascar in 2008 to view what environmental groups had deemed illegal logging operations. After the visit, Martin and Taylor stopped importing woods from Madagascar. Gibson, though, continued and the result was the intervention of federal authorities. That action remains in limbo. The feds haven’t charged Gibson with criminal circumvention of the Lacey Act and in the civil arena the legal wrangling continues regarding Gibson’s attempt to prove the woods legal.

 

The second seizure occurred in August of this year. This time, the dispute concerns Indian law. Gibson received woods from India that the feds assert were not legally exported under Indian law. Gibson’s name, however, appeared on only one of the many shipping documents and that appearance, contends the company that etched the name onto the form, was an accident. An intermediary imported the woods and had them deposited in a third party storage facility on the outskirts of Nashville. Gibson then picks up the wood a few pieces at a time.

 

Though the “nameless” paper trail may have triggered the feds’ suspicion, the substantive dispute is about the thickness of the wood. Indian law prohibits the export of wood of a “thickness exceeding 6 mm.” Gibson received wood of approximately 10 mm in thickness. On all but one of the shipping forms, however, the wood was identified by a tariff code applicable to planks (in this case, “fingerboards” to be placed on the necks of the guitars) not exceeding 6 mm; only one of the many forms used the proper tariff code identifying the wood as of a thickness whose export was prohibited by Indian law. So, the question appears to be both about the absolute legality of the woods and the intent of the party who filled in the forms."

 

For further explanation, you can consult my article in the Journal of the American Bar Association.

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I think this 'Wood Seizure' Lacey Act event is one of the best examples here on the forum of an issue that can have no resolution.

Some of us here believe it is government overreach. Some, myself included, think it was political.

While some here believe that it was Gibson at fault.

A lot of what you believe is based on what you've read.

So, where you go to read stuff will affect you outlook on things.

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No, It wasn't political. Henry had donated to both Democratic and Republican candidates. Here's my interview with Media Matters on the subject: https://www.mediamat...se-study/181273

 

That Media Matters article was 95% focused on their allegation of another network's (Fox) coverage being partisan. So, of course, it only presented information that supported that claim.

It would be possible to rehash this issue here AGAIN. But, life is too short. So, I'll let you have the last word.

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Got thinking about all this, and started wondering how Martin has managed to avoid a good share of all the carryings-on that have plagued Gibson. To me, both companies are the venerable old standby acoustic sources. Curious as to reflections/opinions from other members....

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Got thinking about all this, and started wondering how Martin has managed to avoid a good share of all the carryings-on that have plagued Gibson. To me, both companies are the venerable old standby acoustic sources. Curious as to reflections/opinions from other members....

It's very clear: Martin has scrupulously followed the law. As my two pieces in the NYT and the piece in the ABA Journal point out, Gibson, Martin, and Taylor toured Madagascar lumber sites together. After being informed that all of the wood supplied by those sites was illegal, Martin and Taylor ceased doing business with them. Gibson upped its orders and internal Gibson memos (obtained by the US Dept. of Justice) referred to the opportunity offered by "gray market" wood.

 

Similarly, Martin and Taylor have followed the letter of the Lacey act. As I also point out in those publications, Gibson purchased wood that violated India's (admittedly silly) export laws. Martin and Taylor did not. In addition, by shipping the wood under another company's name to anonymous self-storage facilities near the Nashville airport and retrieving only a few pieces of wood at a time, Gibson drew the suspicion of US authorities.

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None of this stuff here, the nicey-nicey of Henry and all he's done, the boo-hoo bad government men taking their fingerboards, none of it touches their debt situation at all. As long as people refuse to see American businesses run as personal banks, it will never change. Gibson will vaporize before your eyes and people will still say what a great guy Henry was and how bad it was that that bad president man sent his personal thugs in to take his wood.

 

Debt. Debt to Equity. An even finer ratio is used in this instance. Look at what is real, see if you could run your household with these ratios and margins, decide for yourself how this business is being run, then look at the dipped in 18k gold les pauls and swarovski encrusted sgs and stuff like that that disappears off to friends of the company and tell yourself they are not running this thing as a personal bank.

 

They are. They almost all are. It catches up to everyone eventually.

 

rct

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None of this stuff here, the nicey-nicey of Henry and all he's done, the boo-hoo bad government men taking their fingerboards, none of it touches their debt situation at all. As long as people refuse to see American businesses run as personal banks, it will never change. Gibson will vaporize before your eyes and people will still say what a great guy Henry was and how bad it was that that bad president man sent his personal thugs in to take his wood.

 

Debt. Debt to Equity. An even finer ratio is used in this instance. Look at what is real, see if you could run your household with these ratios and margins, decide for yourself how this business is being run, then look at the dipped in 18k gold les pauls and swarovski encrusted sgs and stuff like that that disappears off to friends of the company and tell yourself they are not running this thing as a personal bank.

 

They are. They almost all are. It catches up to everyone eventually.

 

rct

 

Good man

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I wonder where you have to go to find the phrase "Jack booted gestapo agents"? ;)

 

Good question Boyd.

I have been in the Gibson corporate offices many times and know all of the people that were working there at the time of the infamous "government raid". They are bookkeepers and accountants. This is just a typical office.

 

Government agents were executing a legal search warrant. They used a group of agents that were armed with automatic weapons and clothed in bullet proof vests and helmets. They wore dark sunglasses to help hide their identity. They were not local police officials and they were not local sheriff's personnel. This was a federal warrant. No one seems to know what agency these men belonged to. No one seems to know where they came from. There was no warning of the execution of the warrant. They just barged in and started lining people against the walls.

 

These folks had no idea what was happening and one lady that I know very well was patted down and searched. she was so frightened she lost control of her bladder. She was 61 years old at the time and a grandmother of three.

 

We can debate the legality of the wood and it's purchase but I will never---never--- agree with the execution of the search warrant. This was about some wood in dispute and the records concerning it. The problem could have been resolved by asking for the records and they would have been brought to the appropriate government office. These folks are not criminals. They are not drug dealers and they are not anarchists. You can rest assured they they were not armed and didn't resist in any way.

 

I used the phrase "Jack Booted Gestapo Agents". These men were armed with assault weapons and wearing riot gear and no one knows where they came from. What government agency has such a force and how are they able to operate in such secrecy? Who pays their salary and where are they trained? They are not military and they are not members of a local police force. Who the hell are they? What government agency has such a force and how often do they use them?

 

Gibson has been unfairly characterized for trying to hide the paper trail by using a third party and that is just because they bought the wood in question from a legal registered wood broker that they have used for years. Many guitar makers use this wood broker and continue to do business with them as it is perfectly legal. It is impractical for Gibson to send wood buyers all over the world to buy wood for production. They use various wood brokers that go to the source and buy the wood then process the paperwork and then sell the wood to the various venders. These wood venders import the wood into the various countries. This is not to cover a trail of illegal purchases. This is just a practical way for manufactures to acquire wood legally.

 

Yes bigger manufactures can afford to do this differently and they can afford to have teams of men out in the jungles buying wood. We know that one manufacturer bought all of the ebony available. This is just the way folks do business.

 

Most folks are a bit confused as the wood was brought into the country with the proper documentation and actually cleared U.S. Customs, a government agency. There was no problem when the Customs Department certified the wood and the paper work. This is not a case of smuggling. The importer Gibson used brought the wood in legally and then the problem started. One government agency said the wood was properly imported and another said it was illegal. Even the U.S. government agencies can't agree.

 

Of course the wood was stored in a storage facility in Nashville. Where the heck would you expect to find it? In the office that was raided? Yes they sent employees to the storage unit to get small amounts of it. They were using it as production demanded. If they needed 50 fret boards they went to the storage unit and got 50 fret board blanks. Gibson doesn't have a huge warehouse to store all of the components they use in guitar making. There was nothing sinister here and this whole mess was settled. Did Gibson get the wood back? Maybe J.T. could fill us in on that detail.

 

Just so you know. Harriet, the grandmother, retired and recounts the whole episode with humor and she harbors no resentment to the folks that shoved her up against the wall and searched he. She wears it as a badge of honor. She mentions that she was proud to make the Jackbooted Storm Trooper stand in a puddle of her urine. She's my hero.

 

This whole issue has been put to bed years ago and I will tell you this.

 

Many years ago I started saving issues of Guitar Player magazine with the intent of using the various lessons they published to make me a better guitar player. I intended to do this when I retired. Well I'm retired and have come across some valuable information. This is a fun bit of trivia. The June 1979 issue had Howard Roberts on the cover and a banner at the bottom of the cover that reads "Wood supplies running out or runaround"? The article is written by Jas Obrecht. Jas has some valuable info in the article and most of it is relevant to today 38 years later. I know-Iknow-- most of you weren't even born then. Ha... It's just that nothing seems to change. The very same problem we are facing now we faced almost 40 years ago. The same manufactures having the same wood sourcing problems. Some are still in business and some aren't. I won't go into detail but rest assured this problem has been going on for many years. It's a great article. The point you ask? Nothing has changed in all these years. The warnings were not heeded and we are still having the very same debate. Good grief...

Don't squat with yer spurs on,

Hogeye

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No, It wasn't political. Henry had donated to both Democratic and Republican candidates.

True, but when his hand got caught in the cookie jar, Henry made it a political event by turning to conservative media to do what they do best: Spin a blame game theory with fingers pointed at the opposing party's administration. Conversely, Henry could then be portrayed as a blameless-little-guy-businessman.

 

Hence, my earlier reference to his Cry-A-Thon tour of conservative media outlets.

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Agreed. I lost a ton of respect for Henry when he went on his political Cry-A-Thon. My guess is that any financial distress the company finds itself in today has very little to do with the wood they lost, compared to a host of business decisions made by the company in the past few decades.

 

Dumping long-time dealers for the big-box model, trying to become a "Lifestyle" brand, acquisitions that went nowhere, robot tuners, letting dedicated & gifted employees walk out the door, etc.

 

I'm thankful that the brand is still with us, but maybe some new blood needs to be circulated into the corporate picture.

 

There it is and said better than I could. Seeing him on Fox News ranting was the first and last nail in the coffin for me. Pure slime. I won't send my hard-earned dollars to a person who behaves like that for a multitude of reasons. It goes against my deepest beliefs.

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True, but when his hand got caught in the cookie jar, Henry made it a political event by turning to conservative media to do what they do best: Spin a blame game theory with fingers pointed at the opposing party's administration. Conversely, Henry could then be portrayed as a blameless-little-guy-businessman.

 

Hence, my earlier reference to his Cry-A-Thon tour of conservative media outlets.

Ah, got it. I agree with your characterization.

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I used the phrase "Jack Booted Gestapo Agents". These men were armed with assault weapons and wearing riot gear and no one knows where they came from.

 

That's all fine, but I'm sure you could find another way to describe it. You are equating government agents confiscating wood from a guitar company with Nazi's taking people to concentration camps to be slaughtered. IMO, that's outrageous.

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