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It's very clear: Martin has scrupulously followed the law. As my two pieces in the NYT and the piece in the ABA Journal point out, Gibson, Martin, and Taylor toured Madagascar lumber sites together. After being informed that all of the wood supplied by those sites was illegal, Martin and Taylor ceased doing business with them. Gibson upped its orders and internal Gibson memos (obtained by the US Dept. of Justice) referred to the opportunity offered by "gray market" wood.

 

Similarly, Martin and Taylor have followed the letter of the Lacey act. As I also point out in those publications, Gibson purchased wood that violated India's (admittedly silly) export laws. Martin and Taylor did not. In addition, by shipping the wood under another company's name to anonymous self-storage facilities near the Nashville airport and retrieving only a few pieces of wood at a time, Gibson drew the suspicion of US authorities.

 

 

Let us be clear on this point. Gibson never violated the Lacey act. The wood purchased was not illegal by the Lacey act. It was Indian rosewood. It was illegal as to the size limits as prescribed by the Indian government. Martin scrupulously followed the law and so did Gibson. Yes I know J.T. its a good,but very old debate tactic. I learned it in Jr. while on the debate team.

 

You very cleverly mix two separate issues and no I was not confused by your obvious tactic. You start out by confusing the argument with the Madagascar rosewood. Yes Martin and Taylor did quit using the rosewood in question and Gibson still continued to do business with wood brokers that had supplies of the wood in inventory. This wood was purchased from the vendor, not the Madagascar lumber mills. before the ban and was perfectly legal. It was stored in warehouses and sold from there. Martin and Taylor was buying directly from Madagascar lumber mills and yes, they stopped.

 

Let us be very clear. Martin and Taylor have teams of wood buyers that tour the world buying wood for them. Gibson isn't big enough to afford that luxury. They have found that buying the wood from registered, legal wood vendors is more practical for their needs. You seem to think that this very common business practice is used to hide the purchases in a confusing paper trail. So I will mention here that this is how it works.

 

There are vendors that go around the world buying and stocking wood. Gibson buys from these companies. The company brings the wood to the U.S. and then Gibson takes control of it. This is a legal business procedure. Then when Gibson has control of the wood they truck it to Nashville and put it into storage. Gibson uses small storage units to store some of it's overflow material inventory. These are the very same storage units that are used by the general public to store their "stuff". When they need to use it they send a truck over to pick it up. Martin and Taylor do not do it this way. They go to the lumber mills and buy the wood and then import it themselves. They have the luxury of having big warehouses to store their wood.

 

This has all been resolved and Gibson still does business in the exact same way. The wood brokers they use are perfectly legal and all small guitar companies use them. I would love to sit and have a beer with you and we could discuss this in detail as I have no expertise in this field of communication. I feel I don't communicate my thoughts very well in a paragraph or two on an internet forum. Sigh...

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Good question Boyd.

I have been in the Gibson corporate offices many times and know all of the people that were working there at the time of the infamous "government raid". They are bookkeepers and accountants. This is just a typical office.

 

Government agents were executing a legal search warrant. They used a group of agents that were armed with automatic weapons and clothed in bullet proof vests and helmets. They wore dark sunglasses to help hide their identity. They were not local police officials and they were not local sheriff's personnel. This was a federal warrant. No one seems to know what agency these men belonged to. No one seems to know where they came from. There was no warning of the execution of the warrant. They just barged in and started lining people against the walls.

 

These folks had no idea what was happening and one lady that I know very well was patted down and searched. she was so frightened she lost control of her bladder. She was 61 years old at the time and a grandmother of three.

 

We can debate the legality of the wood and it's purchase but I will never---never--- agree with the execution of the search warrant. This was about some wood in dispute and the records concerning it. The problem could have been resolved by asking for the records and they would have been brought to the appropriate government office. These folks are not criminals. They are not drug dealers and they are not anarchists. You can rest assured they they were not armed and didn't resist in any way.

 

I used the phrase "Jack Booted Gestapo Agents". These men were armed with assault weapons and wearing riot gear and no one knows where they came from. What government agency has such a force and how are they able to operate in such secrecy? Who pays their salary and where are they trained? They are not military and they are not members of a local police force. Who the hell are they? What government agency has such a force and how often do they use them?

 

Gibson has been unfairly characterized for trying to hide the paper trail by using a third party and that is just because they bought the wood in question from a legal registered wood broker that they have used for years. Many guitar makers use this wood broker and continue to do business with them as it is perfectly legal. It is impractical for Gibson to send wood buyers all over the world to buy wood for production. They use various wood brokers that go to the source and buy the wood then process the paperwork and then sell the wood to the various venders. These wood venders import the wood into the various countries. This is not to cover a trail of illegal purchases. This is just a practical way for manufactures to acquire wood legally.

 

Yes bigger manufactures can afford to do this differently and they can afford to have teams of men out in the jungles buying wood. We know that one manufacturer bought all of the ebony available. This is just the way folks do business.

 

Most folks are a bit confused as the wood was brought into the country with the proper documentation and actually cleared U.S. Customs, a government agency. There was no problem when the Customs Department certified the wood and the paper work. This is not a case of smuggling. The importer Gibson used brought the wood in legally and then the problem started. One government agency said the wood was properly imported and another said it was illegal. Even the U.S. government agencies can't agree.

 

Of course the wood was stored in a storage facility in Nashville. Where the heck would you expect to find it? In the office that was raided? Yes they sent employees to the storage unit to get small amounts of it. They were using it as production demanded. If they needed 50 fret boards they went to the storage unit and got 50 fret board blanks. Gibson doesn't have a huge warehouse to store all of the components they use in guitar making. There was nothing sinister here and this whole mess was settled. Did Gibson get the wood back? Maybe J.T. could fill us in on that detail.

 

Just so you know. Harriet, the grandmother, retired and recounts the whole episode with humor and she harbors no resentment to the folks that shoved her up against the wall and searched he. She wears it as a badge of honor. She mentions that she was proud to make the Jackbooted Storm Trooper stand in a puddle of her urine. She's my hero.

 

This whole issue has been put to bed years ago and I will tell you this.

 

Many years ago I started saving issues of Guitar Player magazine with the intent of using the various lessons they published to make me a better guitar player. I intended to do this when I retired. Well I'm retired and have come across some valuable information. This is a fun bit of trivia. The June 1979 issue had Howard Roberts on the cover and a banner at the bottom of the cover that reads "Wood supplies running out or runaround"? The article is written by Jas Obrecht. Jas has some valuable info in the article and most of it is relevant to today 38 years later. I know-Iknow-- most of you weren't even born then. Ha... It's just that nothing seems to change. The very same problem we are facing now we faced almost 40 years ago. The same manufactures having the same wood sourcing problems. Some are still in business and some aren't. I won't go into detail but rest assured this problem has been going on for many years. It's a great article. The point you ask? Nothing has changed in all these years. The warnings were not heeded and we are still having the very same debate. Good grief...

Don't squat with yer spurs on,

Hogeye

 

Hog, I have to call this out, not to be a jerk but to seek the truth. You are giving an emotional argument. If this was your argument in any Speech 101 class you'd fail. Emotional arguments are used to manipulate, not inform. Gibson made choices that Martin and Taylor didn't make. The fact that cops act like pigs is nothing new and has ZERO bearing on any choices Gibson made. It sounds like you are defending your own self interests or bias' or trying to paint your own picture instead of helping search for the truth. Hog, I am sorry if I come across as rude. It isn't meant to be rude in any way but fact are not up for interpretation even if you vouch for them.

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There it is and said better than I could. Seeing him on Fox News ranting was the first and last nail in the coffin for me. Pure slime. I won't send my hard-earned dollars to a person who behaves like that for a multitude of reasons. It goes against my deepest beliefs.

 

Yet here you are posting on Henry's forum. Hmmmmm???

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Yet here you are posting on Henry's forum. Hmmmmm???

 

Oh dear me! Am I breaking any forum rules? Actually Hog, I'm going to leave this here and say that if you want to play it that way, I don't care what you have to say on any matter. I have no intention of devaluing your posiion but you just did it all on your own. I think you've been peddling BS this entire time. I don't sat it with anger or disdain but you won't seek anything of value, just the sound of one hand clapping. Good luck with that but I never found happiness in that but good luck to you.

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Let us be clear on this point. Gibson never violated the Lacey act. The wood purchased was not illegal by the Lacey act. It was Indian rosewood. It was illegal as to the size limits as prescribed by the Indian government. Martin scrupulously followed the law and so did Gibson. Yes I know J.T. its a good,but very old debate tactic. I learned it in Jr. while on the debate team.

 

You very cleverly mix two separate issues and no I was not confused by your obvious tactic. You start out by confusing the argument with the Madagascar rosewood. Yes Martin and Taylor did quit using the rosewood in question and Gibson still continued to do business with wood brokers that had supplies of the wood in inventory. This wood was purchased from the vendor, not the Madagascar lumber mills. before the ban and was perfectly legal. It was stored in warehouses and sold from there. Martin and Taylor was buying directly from Madagascar lumber mills and yes, they stopped.

 

Let us be very clear. Martin and Taylor have teams of wood buyers that tour the world buying wood for them. Gibson isn't big enough to afford that luxury. They have found that buying the wood from registered, legal wood vendors is more practical for their needs. You seem to think that this very common business practice is used to hide the purchases in a confusing paper trail. So I will mention here that this is how it works.

 

There are vendors that go around the world buying and stocking wood. Gibson buys from these companies. The company brings the wood to the U.S. and then Gibson takes control of it. This is a legal business procedure. Then when Gibson has control of the wood they truck it to Nashville and put it into storage. Gibson uses small storage units to store some of it's overflow material inventory. These are the very same storage units that are used by the general public to store their "stuff". When they need to use it they send a truck over to pick it up. Martin and Taylor do not do it this way. They go to the lumber mills and buy the wood and then import it themselves. They have the luxury of having big warehouses to store their wood.

 

This has all been resolved and Gibson still does business in the exact same way. The wood brokers they use are perfectly legal and all small guitar companies use them. I would love to sit and have a beer with you and we could discuss this in detail as I have no expertise in this field of communication. I feel I don't communicate my thoughts very well in a paragraph or two on an internet forum. Sigh...

 

Do you have anything to say about their poor positioning regarding debt? The wood thing is long over and probably wasn't even bothering them by the time it all happened. I get how close you are and all, and that's a good thing. But this isn't at all about their wood or anyone else's. We have to be honest and acknowledge up front that a private company is in no way required to show their sheets beyond a certain point, but when the debt/bond raters sniff smoke there is usually something burning. Somewhere.

 

rct

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Let us be clear on this point. Gibson never violated the Lacey act. The wood purchased was not illegal by the Lacey act. It was Indian rosewood. It was illegal as to the size limits as prescribed by the Indian government.

And, therefore, illegal under the Lacey act, which makes it illegal to import into the US wood products exported in violation of the law of the exporting country. You've admitted that the wood "was illegal as to the size limits as prescribed by the Indian government." That is a violation of the Lacey act, even though, as I posted, the Indian law is "silly."

 

Anyway, I wrote in support of your support of Henry's saving of Gibson. I only added a clarification about the two incidents of wood seizure. I've stated publicly my position on the issue clearly and articulately for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, NPR's Marketplace, the ABA Journal, Media Matters, in a text on international law, and in other respected, publicly available sources. I've nothing more to offer. Folks can Google if they'd like to read more.

 

On edit, a PS: Oh, and I know and have spoken with the wood importer. As I posted, the arrangement looked suspicious to the federal government (I spoke with an agent). I know it wasn't an illegal arrangement and did not post anything to the contrary. I know precisely why Gibson used this arrangement, as I suspect you do. Folks involved phoned me while the second seizure was going down.

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It's very clear: Martin has scrupulously followed the law. As my two pieces in the NYT and the piece in the ABA Journal point out, Gibson, Martin, and Taylor toured Madagascar lumber sites together. After being informed that all of the wood supplied by those sites was illegal, Martin and Taylor ceased doing business with them. Gibson upped its orders and internal Gibson memos (obtained by the US Dept. of Justice) referred to the opportunity offered by "gray market" wood.

 

Similarly, Martin and Taylor have followed the letter of the Lacey act. As I also point out in those publications, Gibson purchased wood that violated India's (admittedly silly) export laws. Martin and Taylor did not. In addition, by shipping the wood under another company's name to anonymous self-storage facilities near the Nashville airport and retrieving only a few pieces of wood at a time, Gibson drew the suspicion of US authorities.

I wasn't intending to reference the wood debacle specifically, and I really appreciate your reply. My quandry, I guess, is more general in that there's always some kind of panic/rumor/issue with reference to Gibson, but not so much with Martin. I apologize for not being more clear - guess lack of clarity is what inspired my post😨

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1504555031[/url]' post='1879322']

That's all fine, but I'm sure you could find another way to describe it. You are equating government agents confiscating wood from a guitar company with Nazi's taking people to concentration camps to be slaughtered. IMO, that's outrageous.

 

It's called hyperbole. Writers, even song writers, use it all the time.

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Do you have anything to say about their poor positioning regarding debt? The wood thing is long over and probably wasn't even bothering them by the time it all happened. I get how close you are and all, and that's a good thing. But this isn't at all about their wood or anyone else's. We have to be honest and acknowledge up front that a private company is in no way required to show their sheets beyond a certain point, but when the debt/bond raters sniff smoke there is usually something burning. Somewhere.

 

rct

 

Henry has always been underfunded. The rumors of his demise have been around for years. Many have predicted his failure and so far he has managed to keep the name alive. For how much longer? I have no idea.

 

I do find it disturbing that so many here are rooting for his failure. I want this ride to go on forever. It's Gibson guys. I have been thru the Norlin years and their failure and now we are going thru the Henry years and I really don't want it to fail. To many good folks would be hurt in the process.

 

These are troubling times and we need to keep all of our American institutions going. There are a lot of issues going on that no one wants to address. I agree with you. It's a scary time but don't sell Henry short.

 

There are far greater issues than the failure of the wood industry. One poster wants to take this discussion into the political realm. He not only wants Gibson to fail but he wants the President Of the United States to fail. Good grief. If the country goes down we all go with it. Can't we just step back from the edge and play our guitars? I have no control over what happens but I will tell you this. The rumors of Henry's failure have been circulating since the day he bought the company and they will continue. We will just have to ride it out and see if he is going to keep the company afloat. Me? I'm betting on him.

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Henry has always been underfunded. The rumors of his demise have been around for years. Many have predicted his failure and so far he has managed to keep the name alive. For how much longer? I have no idea.

 

I do find it disturbing that so many here are rooting for his failure. I want this ride to go on forever. It's Gibson guys. I have been thru the Norlin years and their failure and now we are going thru the Henry years and I really don't want it to fail. To many good folks would be hurt in the process.

 

These are troubling times and we need to keep all of our American institutions going. There are a lot of issues going on that no one wants to address. I agree with you. It's a scary time but don't sell Henry short.

 

There are far greater issues than the failure of the wood industry. One poster wants to take this discussion into the political realm. He not only wants Gibson to fail but he wants the President Of the United States to fail. Good grief. If the country goes down we all go with it. Can't we just step back from the edge and play our guitars? I have no control over what happens but I will tell you this. The rumors of Henry's failure have been circulating since the day he bought the company and they will continue. We will just have to ride it out and see if he is going to keep the company afloat. Me? I'm betting on him.

 

You must not be referring to me, I never said I wanted Gibson to fail.

 

 

 

 

PS: The country will be fine, once it gets its enema completed.

 

 

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Gibson will be fine, as will this Union of states. The most likely scenario is Gibson is able to raise enough revenue to refinance its debt. Sure that does nothing but kick the can down a few years, but it's far better than the alternative. There are far too many people making an honest living working at Gibson, and using Gibson instruments, for any other scenario to be desirable - no matter where you stand on the wood raids, or who you voted for in November.

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True, but when his hand got caught in the cookie jar, Henry made it a political event by turning to conservative media to do what they do best: Spin a blame game theory with fingers pointed at the opposing party's administration. Conversely, Henry could then be portrayed as a blameless-little-guy-businessman.

 

Hence, my earlier reference to his Cry-A-Thon tour of conservative media outlets.

Exactly. Spot on.

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Henry purchased Gibson as it was a couple of months away from closing it's doors and turned it around. Many of us here who own Gibsons made post Norlin, would not if it hadn't been for Henry and his team. That is at least one fact no one can contest.It's impossible to perform financial ratios analysis without a complete set of financial statements. Privately held companies only release those, with confidentiality agreements, to investors and select creditors. So, articles written alluding to 'insider information' usually mention somewhere they are basing their projections on certain assumptions. But, on to the dead horse.The Lacey Act of 1900 was amended in May 2008 to include plant life, including trees and wood, in addition to animals. Approximately one year later, in August 2009 Gibson was the first company investigated and raided under that change. They were raided again in November 2011. They were never actually charged, and finally settled with The US Department of Justice so they could move forward. Before the raid, a Gibson employee travelled with some Martin employees in a trip hosted by environmentalist groups to attempt to determine the legality of Madagascar sourced wood. The environmentalists argued the wood was illegal. Martin had stopped purchasing Madagascar wood years earlier after a coup. Gibson decided to continue to purchase Madagascar wood as it had been for years. Approximately a year later they were mysteriously raided. Representatives from these environmental groups are often the "experts" quoted in articles which come down on Gibson. The amendment included the provision that a US business would be deemed in violation of the law, if they violated the export laws of the sourcing country. Sometimes, unfortunately, those laws are not clear. A congressional Committee recommended that the law be rewritten to be more clear and definitive. Ironically, Gibson was told they would not have had a problem if they had used foreign labor to create fretboards out of the blanks. Martin, of course, uses the same wood. The US only uses 5% of the worlds rosewood and ebony. China uses most of it. Bottom line, Gibson was never charged. So, there are at least two sides to every story.

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Im not sure what Gibson expects from its customers.. they Build . people buy.. But I know I wont pay 5800 cdn dollars for a J200 , or 3000 Cdn for a j45 that has Unknown woods on it..or with a pickup added .. I for the most part I have been very loyal to the brand.. I bought well over 1000 guitars in a 20 some odd year period , of new Gibson acoustics and archtops from 1990 to 2012 But things have been changing and I have as well...

 

 

I wish Gibson all the best.. but I wont support the brand anymore..

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I made a lowball offer, haven't heard back.....

 

 

My plans include shutting down Bozeman to build all Gibsons under one roof in Nashville in the centre of the USA for better distribution and quality assurance; new line up will be plain L-00, J45, Bird, SJ200 no more. Electrics will be plain Les Paul Standards, plain 335 and just maybe an SG, that's it. Everything might be made from maple, sycamore, walnut...

 

Pianos and electronics etc are gone - pianos are a disaster these days...

 

 

BluesKing777.

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I do find it disturbing that so many here are rooting for his failure. I want this ride to go on forever. It's Gibson guys. I have been thru the Norlin years and their failure and now we are going thru the Henry years and I really don't want it to fail.

 

Can't we just step back from the edge and play our guitars?

 

Hogeye, I agree with you 100%.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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I dont wish any ill fate for gibson. But just get there **** together and make better guitars like the older days.

 

I am surprised by your comment. Guitar quality experts, such as George Gruhn pretty much say that the Gibson guitars of today constitute a new golden era of guitars. I own a number of Gibsons from the mid-60s/McCarty era as well as Montana era GibsonS...and the quality of today's Gibsons equal the former era.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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