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Victory Pete

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Rosewood is better at transferring string energy than Ebony.

 

Is this true? If it is correct that density is an important factor in vibration transmission (and I'm not saying it is, but it certainly makes sense), then ebony is a better transmitter.......it is denser than rosewood. Take a look at this hardness (i.e. density) chart.........Janka Hardness table. By this test and resulting numbers, ali but one species of ebony is substantially harder than all the rosewoods. "Better" is subjective. I would think rosewood, being softer, would damp high frequencies more than ebony and produce a warmer tone, and likewise ebony would be brighter due to its' hardness. All speculation on my part, but logical, me thinks.

 

How have you arrived at this statement, Pete?

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Is this true? If it is correct that density is an important factor in vibration transmission (and I'm not saying it is, but it certainly makes sense), then ebony is a better transmitter.......it is denser than rosewood. Take a look at this hardness (i.e. density) chart.........Janka Hardness table. By this test and resulting numbers, ali but one species of ebony is substantially harder than all the rosewoods. "Better" is subjective. I would think rosewood, being softer, would damp high frequencies more than ebony and produce a warmer tone, and likewise ebony would be brighter due to its' hardness. All speculation on my part, but logical, me thinks.

 

How have you arrived at this statement, Pete?

 

I found this hard to believe also. There are numerous discussion's about this fact online. Rosewood has lower Impedance than Ebony. I have 2 identical D-28 bridges in my shop, One Rosewood, one Ebony. When dropped on my marble counter the Rosewood rings like a bell and the Ebony just makes thud.

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Taken from the above link. I have an expensive Cordoba Classical that does in fact have a rosewood bridge with an ebony fretboard, never really noticed this until recently.

 

 

 

" MikeHalloran

 

Posts14,047 MikeHalloran Registered MemberJoined: 14 Jun 2005, 05:43 <h3></h3>

02 Jan 2011, 17:54 #10 2011-01-02T17:54

 

> Bridges: Ebony or Brazilian Rosewood for Max Tone? <

 

The question is wrong. There is no such thing as "Max Tone". Tone is in the ear of the beholder and is highly subjective. The real question involves max volume and there is an answer to that one.

 

There are differences between rosewood and ebony. Rosewood has a lower impedance - like in electricity, it means resistance to the flow of energy. In a world where all things are equal i.e. strings, top, plate, saddle, bracing, neck, sides and back, this means that rosewood is more efficient at transmitting the energy of the strings to the rest of the guitar. It will exhibit more volume and bass as the effect is not linear. Ebony will have more sustain as the energy stays in the strings longer.

 

Will you hear the difference? Yes but you are not likely to hear the increased volume because the human ear is not very sensitive to volume changes of one dB or so. You should hear a slight increase in bass and this will color the rest of the tone. You may or may not hear the differences in attack or sustain - they will be there.

 

Classical guitar makers favor small BRW bridges for this reason. The object of a concert guitar is to maximize volume and projection and an ebony bridge does not do this.

 

If the bridge ever pops off my 00-28G again, I intend to replace it with a BRW one from an 18G or 18/16C/N-10 to see how much difference it makes. I am not so interested that I will pull the current bridge from my guitar, however.

 

Maple, BTW, has a much lower impedance than any of the rosewoods. This is why it is used for bowed strings and banjos. I would think a maple bridge wouldn't hold a saddle well without splitting which is why it isn't generally used for guitars. I do have a mandolin with a one-piece, non-adjustable maple bridge that works well."

 

 

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Here is the next post from that Forum:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/url] "Alan Carruth

 

 

Registered MemberJoined: 02 Jul 2009, 12:12

 

 

<h3></h3>

03 Jan 2011, 01:07 #11 2011-01-03T01:07

 

Impedance is not a material property, it depends on how the material is used.

 

Mechanical impedance is the ratio of velocity over force at a given frequency. It's determined by mass, stiffness, and damping (the rate of energy dissipation in the material). Increasing any of those will raise the impedance, but have different effects on the frequency response. Adding mass doesn't raise the impedance much at low frequencies, but has a big effect at high frequencies. Stiffness works the other way: effecting high frequencies more than low ones. Damping adds to impedance at all frequencies, but tends to kill highs more than lows.

 

Rosewoods tend to have lower damping than ebony, to be less dense, and to have about the same stiffness. Generally, then, a rosewood bridge will have lower impedance overall than an ebony one, and the lower mass and lower damping will tend to favor highs. That assumes an 'average' piece of wood, and the same size and shape of bridge.

 

Maple is generally less dense than rosewood, with soft maples (Euro of Red) being lower in density than Rock maple. Maple also has higher damping than rosewood. When I have used maple for a guitar bridge I've taken advantage of the lower density and made it larger, which allows you to put the saddle slot further back and have more meat behind the pin holes, so it holds up better. It also helps keep things from getting too bright.

 

Walnut is much like a soft maple, and Ovation's been using walnut bridges for years without a lot of splitting problems. You just have to design around the differences."

 

 

 

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Sounds like the combination of the rosewood body and the long scale continues to create one formidable beast.

 

 

Especially if you could figure out a way to play the guitar without holding it against your body...

 

Certainly a good piece of rosewood will ring like a bell when struck, which is presumably why it is the preferred material for the bars in some mallet-struck percussion instruments like the marimba or xylophone.

 

Sound transmission in a guitar top is pretty complex. At the bridge, you have the sandwich of the strings, saddle, bridge, bridge pins, soundboard, bridge plate, and top bracing.

 

I don't know how it all works, but I like the result in a good guitar.

 

The next question, of course, is how well the modern Brazilian rosewood substitutes perform these functions compared to Dalbergia nigra...

 

(maybe I'll just go play for awhile instead.)

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So why does Martin use Ebony on most or all of their high end guitars? I am not sure, maybe tradition.

 

 

Maybe because ebony is a lot harder than rosewood, which can be pretty important in things like fretboards and bridges. All you have to do is look at pinhole and fretboard wear on older guitars with ebony vs rosewood.

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Maybe because ebony is a lot harder than rosewood, which can be pretty important in things like fretboards and bridges. All you have to do is look at pinhole and fretboard wear on older guitars with ebony vs rosewood.

 

Seems like that would be a neglible reason, at least for the bridge. There is no doubt that ebony is better for fretboards.

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Seems like that would be a neglible reason, at least for the bridge. There is no doubt that ebony is better for fretboards.

 

 

It's not a negligible concern for those of us who buy vintage guitars. Bridge wear can be a significant issue, to the point where with a lot of older guitars with rosewood bridges, you look at whether it makes sense to drill out and plug the pin holes, and start all over.

 

Maybe it's a concern for builders, or maybe they just like to keep the boards and bridges of the same material for aesthetic reasons. You seem to acknowledge that ebony is better for fretboards for wear properties, so maybe even Martin looks at it that way. Sometimes manufacturers actually consider the long-term implications of the material choices they make.

 

You would think that somewhere along the line, Martin has made some conscious choices about materials, balancing one property or material characteristic against another.

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You would think that somewhere along the line, Martin has made some conscious choices about materials, balancing one property or material characteristic against another.

As I mentioned in another recent thread discussing the same topic, historically, we know that some of the most highly regarded guitars and mandolins ever built have utilized ebony for the bridge and fretboard. Clearly, ebony in this application is an excellent wood, as is rosewood (all the while keeping in mind that there are world-wide variations of these woods that will each have their own particular characteristics).

 

Tonal variations will be subtle, and only one small part of the complex mix that delivers the final sound of an instrument. Satisfaction with that sound will then depend on another set of complex factors, including playing style and what an individual's brain and ear prefer to hear.

 

One of the most pleasingly dry & percussive instruments I own is a 2002 J45-Rosewood, with an ebony board and bridge. If anyone were to tell me that the tone of this guitar is somehow being held back by the ebony onboard, I would say the reality is that in this particular instrument, ebony was one of many perfect build choices, based on a very satisfying final result.

 

I like ebony and rosewood equally for the bridge, and prefer ebony for the fretboard, but rosewood is also fine. When considering a purchase, it virtually becomes a non-factor. The key considerations for me will always be playability first, then tone, then aesthetic considerations. And beyond that, it just depends on how much my OCD kicks in!

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As I mentioned in another recent thread discussing the same topic, historically, we know that some of the most highly regarded guitars and mandolins ever built have utilized ebony for the bridge and fretboard. Clearly, ebony in this application is an excellent wood, as is rosewood (all the while keeping in mind that there are world-wide variations of these woods that will each have their own particular characteristics).

 

Tonal variations will be subtle, and only one small part of the complex mix that delivers the final sound of an instrument. Satisfaction with that sound will then depend on another set of complex factors, including playing style and what an individual's brain and ear prefer to hear.

 

One of the most pleasingly dry & percussive instruments I own is a 2002 J45-Rosewood, with an ebony board and bridge. If anyone were to tell me that the tone of this guitar is somehow being held back by the ebony onboard, I would say the reality is that in this particular instrument, ebony was one of many perfect build choices, based on a very satisfying final result.

 

I like ebony and rosewood equally for the bridge, and prefer ebony for the fretboard, but rosewood is also fine. When considering a purchase, it virtually becomes a non-factor. The key considerations for me will always be playability first, then tone, then aesthetic considerations. And beyond that, it just depends on how much my OCD kicks in!

 

I have a 2016 J-45 Custom with Rosewood back, sides, fretboard and bridge. It may be my most favorite guitar that I own. Go figure.

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