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2017 SJ-200 too mello


ScaryLarry

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I dont buy the idea of pickguards robbing tone and volume.

 

My old 03 SJ200 had an inlaid pickguard which lost its design after a year or two. I then removed this guard and played it without for a while, and later replaced the missing guard with a flubber guard.

 

Zero tonal or volume difference. Ive spent 20yrs working in and out of studios as a session player and producer, and have made 10 albums of my own, so Im always on high alert for anything that is different or not quite right. I have ears like a freaking bat (not always a good thing!) and Im the kind of persnickety audio/gear geek that would be the first to notice a change.

 

If pickguards made guitars sound appreciably worse, guitar manufacturers would leave the guitars naked. Its hardly a great marketing strategy to affix furniture to a guitar that divides opinion looks wise and hinders the sound of an instrument.

 

 

Hi Jinder,

Loved you resume.

 

Just so you know. Manufactures place pickguards on guitars to protect them from damage. Pick Guard. A device used to eliminate or lessen damage from a pick. Hmmm. Over the years Gibson has done a lot of strange things to help their guitars last longer. Oh, I don't know maybe we could look at the double XX brace. That was a interesting idea for increasing longevity. How about the now famous "Paddle Cut" Dovetail. I could go on and on but I think most reasonable folks will get my drift.

 

You state that you are a long time recording artist and spend a lot of time in a recording studio. Have you ever encountered a sound deadening material placed on the wall of some too active recording room walls? It isn't a hard reflective material it's usually a foam or spongy material that tends to trap sound waves and deaden them. Celluloid pickguards are, for wont of a better word, brittle and tend to vibrate with the top. Flubber is very flexible and spongy and will soak up the vibration.

 

In another post you recommend taking the under saddle pickup out as it will free the top? Maybe when you have a spare moment you could take the under saddle pick-up out and place it next to a flubber guard and then tell us the difference in the size and the actual composition of the two materials. You are sure the tiny thin pickup will weigh down the top but the much larger flubber guard does nothing? That is an unexpected result for sure. Do you have any explanation for this?

 

In an earlier post I suggested that people should place their guitars on a flat table and then strum across the strings. Them take their wallet out place it on the top and then strum it again. It takes about 10 seconds to try this experiment. Are you going to tell me this makes no difference in the tone and volume of the guitar?

 

Bone saddles are better because they transmit vibration better that plastic? They will alter the sound but a flubber guard has no effect on the sound or tone? I appreciate your credentials and the fact that you have "Bat" ears. I accept your premise their is no difference in flubber pickguards and celluloid. You are the expert here. I would be very interested in your explanation into how the flubber vibrates the same as the celluloid.

 

Here is the real problem. Gibson used to buy very expensive celluloid from Italy send it to New York and have it sliced into thin sheets then hand engrave the design into the celluloid and then hand paint them. The price of this expensive procedure was embedded into the cost of the guitar. That was one of the big costs of the engraved guitars. Then Gibson found a way to heat stamp and color the guards and that eliminated the cost of the hand engraving and painting. Did they pass the savings of the far inferior guard on to the buyer? NO.... They just raised the price...... Now they cheapened the guitar a lot more by going to an Asian manufacturer and buying flubber guards at a huge fraction of the cost of the celluloid. Did they pass the huge cost savings onto the consumer? They raised the price again. So... Now you have a guitar with a chunk of rubber glued to the top and no savings back to you.

 

I submit to you.. Flubber will deaden a top. Flubber is a huge cost saving measure. This should be passed on to the consumer. Let the discussion begin.

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Hi Jinder,

Loved you resume.

 

Just so you know. Manufactures place pickguards on guitars to protect them from damage. Pick Guard. A device used to eliminate or lessen damage from a pick. Hmmm. Over the years Gibson has done a lot of strange things to help their guitars last longer. Oh, I don't know maybe we could look at the double XX brace. That was a interesting idea for increasing longevity. How about the now famous "Paddle Cut" Dovetail. I could go on and on but I think most reasonable folks will get my drift.

 

You state that you are a long time recording artist and spend a lot of time in a recording studio. Have you ever encountered a sound deadening material placed on the wall of some too active recording room walls? It isn't a hard reflective material it's usually a foam or spongy material that tends to trap sound waves and deaden them. Celluloid pickguards are, for wont of a better word, brittle and tend to vibrate with the top. Flubber is very flexible and spongy and will soak up the vibration.

 

In another post you recommend taking the under saddle pickup out as it will free the top? Maybe when you have a spare moment you could take the under saddle pick-up out and place it next to a flubber guard and then tell us the difference in the size and the actual composition of the two materials. You are sure the tiny thin pickup will weigh down the top but the much larger flubber guard does nothing? That is an unexpected result for sure. Do you have any explanation for this?

 

In an earlier post I suggested that people should place their guitars on a flat table and then strum across the strings. Them take their wallet out place it on the top and then strum it again. It takes about 10 seconds to try this experiment. Are you going to tell me this makes no difference in the tone and volume of the guitar?

 

Bone saddles are better because they transmit vibration better that plastic? They will alter the sound but a flubber guard has no effect on the sound or tone? I appreciate your credentials and the fact that you have "Bat" ears. I accept your premise their is no difference in flubber pickguards and celluloid. You are the expert here. I would be very interested in your explanation into how the flubber vibrates the same as the celluloid.

 

Here is the real problem. Gibson used to buy very expensive celluloid from Italy send it to New York and have it sliced into thin sheets then hand engrave the design into the celluloid and then hand paint them. The price of this expensive procedure was embedded into the cost of the guitar. That was one of the big costs of the engraved guitars. Then Gibson found a way to heat stamp and color the guards and that eliminated the cost of the hand engraving and painting. Did they pass the savings of the far inferior guard on to the buyer? NO.... They just raised the price...... Now they cheapened the guitar a lot more by going to an Asian manufacturer and buying flubber guards at a huge fraction of the cost of the celluloid. Did they pass the huge cost savings onto the consumer? They raised the price again. So... Now you have a guitar with a chunk of rubber glued to the top and no savings back to you.

 

I submit to you.. Flubber will deaden a top. Flubber is a huge cost saving measure. This should be passed on to the consumer. Let the discussion begin.

 

Hogeye, I hope my post didn’t come across as hostile. I totally accept that this stuff is entirely subjective, and was just relating my experience with it. Maybe my time working in music has turned my perception of changes in tonality to jelly due to overexposure. Who knows/cares?

 

I just don’t hear the difference between the heat pressed/painted/coloured (pre flubber) guard, the flubber guard or no guard. I’ve tried all three options on both an SJ200 and a Hummingbird, and both guitars sounded great all three ways, but ostensibly no different.

 

I heard far more difference in tone (substantially so) when changing between bone, buffalo horn, fossilised walrus ivory and tusq saddles. Between those options and the many varieties of string on offer, there is a huge amount of tonal variation available without even having to consider something as fundamental as removing pickguards.

 

Regarding the undersaddle pickup debate, the current SJ200 Standard has the Baggs Anthem system, which places a piezo element in a mesh outer layer between the saddle and the bridge of the guitar, has a bridge plate microphone suspended on 3M pads on the underside of the top, and a large plastic preamp system attached to the top by the lip of the soundhole. It’s pointless to compare the weight and density of materials to a pickguard as they’re in different places, weight the top differently and will inevitably have different resonant frequencies. It’s undeniable though that putting an item that is neither saddle or bridge material between both of those elements will have a deleterious effect on transfer of vibration between the strings and the sound chamber of the instrument. Maybe not a huge difference, but all of the guitars that I’ve removed UST elements from and have re-saddled with bone (the brightest organic bridge material in my experience) have sounded brighter with clearer treble response and more midrange detail.

 

Having said that, I use Fishman Matrix Infinity pickups (with the soundhole controls removed) on my main live guitars (SJ200, Hummingbird and ‘41 Reissue SJ100) and have no complaints.

 

The wallet test is fine in theory, but we need to settle on a control wallet with consistency of leather grain and decide on the relative resonance of different currencies and notes within those currencies. In my experience a fifty always sounds better than a twenty...😉

 

In terms of the flubber guard, I must admit I have something of a dog in this fight. From mid/late ‘05 to early ‘08, I was in the fortunate position to have an artist deal with Gibson. One of the first comments I made to David Bower, then the head of Gibson HQ in London, was that I found it exasperating that the pickguard design had worn so badly on my SJ200 and Hummingbird, and that I wished Gibson would make a clear guard with the design printed on the underside so as to protect it from degradation from natural skin oils and pick wear. Three or so months later, David contacted me to say that Gibson liked the idea but had no idea if they would be able to make me one. Another couple of months down the line, I received a prototype flubber guard for my SJ200, with a note asking me to try it out and give some feedback on it.

 

I went back and forth, did test recordings with original guard, no guard and flubber guard, weighed the flubber and original guards (the flubber guard-the prototype anyway-was VERY minutely heavier, I can’t remember the figures but barely) and all the testing I did showed no appreciable difference in tone at all. I kept the flubber guard and was very happy with it. I later fitted one to the Hummingbird I had at the time and did similar tests with very similar results, settling on the durability of the flubber guard after hearing no difference.

 

Gibson rolled out the flubber guards on the Hummingbird first, followed by the SJ200 at a later date. I’m not sure why the SJ200 guards were delayed, perhaps changes were made before they went into production. The flubber guard on my current 2015 SJ200 seems identical to the prototype though.

 

I’m not sure if they’re a cost saving measure or not. They certainly are over hand painted guards, but the heat pressed ones I’m not sure about. At the time I made the suggestion to Gibson, there were a good five or six Gibson players in my circle of friends/musos who owned guitars with decorative guards and were very disappointed with the decals wearing off and making otherwise beautiful guitars look scruffy. Flubber, love it or loathe it, solved that problem.

 

I think something we can all agree on is that Gibson’s recent price hikes are astronomically unreasonable, and are proof that no cost saving measures, whatever they may be, are being passed on to the consumer. It’s a sad state of affairs. Very few working musicians I know could afford an SJ200 or Hummingbird nowadays anyway, so the whole point about the faded guards is rendered somewhat moot.

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Earlier, I wrote that I just don't buy it that pickguards deaden tone. Ten years ago the thick pickguard on my 1965 LG1 fell off from age. I noticed no difference in sound, volume or tone. When an authorized Gibson repairperson reattachedit with double sided tape that he ordered from Gibson, again no tonal, volume or sound change. On my numerous other guitars, mostly Gibsons or Epi's (all eras for each brand), most listeners comment that my guitars have a lot of volume and great tone. All have original pickguards. So with great volume and tone, no reason to think about removing any pickguards.

 

I will add that I tune to standard pitch by ear, never using a visual tuner. I am lucky at age 64 to still be able to do so. Even at gigs and jams when there is a lot of other sounds going on. So my hearing is, thank God, very good. I hear no reason to say a pickguard inhibits a guitar's sound, tone, or volume. If it does, through a digital test, so be it. But, first hand, I see no reason to improve what is already outstanding with a pickguard. Plus, I like the way a guitar looks with a stock pickguard on it. It's an identifier of the guitar model. Others, of course, are entitled to their viewpoints.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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Jinder - Your diplomatic and informative response is much appreciated.

 

Based on personal experiences, I too believe that typically the impact of pickguards is quite minimal. On X-braced guitars, most pickguards are mounted between the waist of the instrument & the junction of the X braces, with those braces extending underneath the pickguard. This is an area of greater rigidity compared to other regions of the top, such as the area directly south of the bridge assembly and bridgeplate. Like other folks, I also have done the pickguard on-off thing, with no appreciable difference in tone. But I'd like to share some additional info that has contributed to my thinking on this. On a '60s Gibson, I've had to make structural repairs to the pickguard area due to the dreaded shrinking-pickguard-crack, located between the soundhole and pickguard. In this case, I used a fairly large piece of birch laminate as a cleat, inserted directly up against the crack, but also directly adjacent to the treble side of the junction point of the X braces. The crack had slightly lifted at the pickguard, and partially separated one of the X braces away from the top. Along with gluing in the large cleat, glue was inserted into the area between the brace & top. When clamped, the area lined up perfectly for an almost invisible and very strong structural repair.

 

The point of all that is to relate the fact that along with some weight from the cleat, this repair added a rather significant amount of additional rigidity to the area - much more than what I would expect from the simple addition of a pickguard. I was fully expecting to lose some volume and/or tone, but the result was that pre & post repair, there was absolutely no discernible change.

 

As fate would have it, back in the early '80s, I repaired a crack located directly behind the bridge of another Gibson - the exact same model. A birch cleat was also used in that case. The structural results were what I had hoped for from a stability standpoint, but in this case, bass response noticeably suffered.

 

Again, this is just limited personal experience. But it leads me to believe that the reason pickguards tonally have a minimal impact is location, location, location.

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Jinder - Your diplomatic and informative response is much appreciated.

 

Based on personal experiences, I too believe that typically the impact of pickguards is quite minimal. On X-braced guitars, most pickguards are mounted between the waist of the instrument & the junction of the X braces, with those braces extending underneath the pickguard. This is an area of greater rigidity compared to other regions of the top, such as the area directly south of the bridge assembly and bridgeplate. Like other folks, I also have done the pickguard on-off thing, with no appreciable difference in tone. But I'd like to share some additional info that has contributed to my thinking on this. On a '60s Gibson, I've had to make structural repairs to the pickguard area due to the dreaded shrinking-pickguard-crack, located between the soundhole and pickguard. In this case, I used a fairly large piece of birch laminate as a cleat, inserted directly up against the crack, but also directly adjacent to the treble side of the junction point of the X braces. The crack had slightly lifted at the pickguard, and partially separated one of the X braces away from the top. Along with gluing in the large cleat, glue was inserted into the area between the brace & top. When clamped, the area lined up perfectly for an almost invisible and very strong structural repair.

 

The point of all that is to relate the fact that along with some weight from the cleat, this repair added a rather significant amount of additional rigidity to the area - much more than what I would expect from the simple addition of a pickguard. I was fully expecting to lose some volume and/or tone, but the result was that pre & post repair, there was absolutely no discernible change.

 

As fate would have it, back in the early '80s, I repaired a crack located directly behind the bridge of another Gibson - the exact same model. A birch cleat was also used in that case. The structural results were what I had hoped for from a stability standpoint, but in this case, bass response noticeably suffered.

 

Again, this is just limited personal experience. But it leads me to believe that the reason pickguards tonally have a minimal impact is location, location, location.

 

This has been my experience. There is very little impact (tonally) on things done north of the bridge. That is the reason that modern builders are putting huge upper transverse braces, leaving the top of the x full size, etc. Put simply everything north of the bridge is structure, everything south is tone. I don't know what a flubber pickguard weighs but I would guess less than my wallet (even on a bad day). I am not arguing with anyone's position, just saying this has been my experience.

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Some interesting thoughts here.

 

re: the pickguard, personally I like the look of the 'flubber', i have it on both my Southern Jumbo and J15. I've looked for one for the EPi EJ200 but just can't find one in that material (if anyone knows where to find one please let me know).

 

re: the original subject matter, it's the total opposite for me, I have a J185 that I hardly play since new because I find it too bright sounding, especially against the two slope shoulders. I was just playing it last night actually and put it away again. Maybe I just need to play it more to break it in, or maybe it needs a 'flubber' guard [biggrin]

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Other variables, in my experience, are clothing on the forearms (bare flesh against the “hips” of the top of the guitar whilst playing attenuates top end overtones the most, woollen jumpers the least), and whether the back of the guitar is held against the player’s chest or stomach.

 

Both of these tonal variables have significant effect on what enters ears and mic capsules-ask 99% of producers or recording engineers who have worked extensively with acoustic instruments and they’ll tell you the same thing.

 

Often when working with acts with multiple acoustic guitars, or multitracking, I’d suggest doing a pass with the guitar as “free” as possible (ie canted away from the player slightly so the stomach and back of the guitar aren’t in contact, with minimal forearm contact) and tracking it up with another pass with the guitar held tight against the player and tucked under the forearm.

 

If there are phasing issues in the mix or the top end of the guitar stack is a bit untidy sounding, this kind of thing will clear it up, more often than not.

 

I think the bottom line with this stuff is that pickguards are easy to remove with a little time and diligence. If you like them then keep them, if not, a spot of naptha/lighter fluid and some absorbent cotton, and you’re rid of it for good.

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The title should read MELLOW!

 

I Just purchased a 2017 SJ-200 sight unseen. I expected a much brighter sound from a maple super jumbo.

I am going to install a bone saddle and bridge pins, and was wondering if anyone can suggest brighter strings,

or anything else that might make it a bit brighter. The bass is great, the treble is what is lacking.

 

SL

 

I have 5 2016 Gibsons, I have installed unbleached bone saddles, bone pins and tapered their pin holes. The improvement was dramatic in every case. The brightest strings I have ever used are Martin SP Phosphor Bronze Mediums.

 

https://www.facebook...236240893077589

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I will add that I tune to standard pitch by ear, never using a visual tuner. I am lucky at age 64 to still be able to do so. Even at gigs and jams when there is a lot of other sounds going on. So my hearing is, thank God, very good.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

How do you accurately tune your guitar to Equal Temperament with your ears? Every one of the 12 notes we use except Octaves are purposely detuned by a miniscule amount so all keys and chords will sound equally "slightly out of tune". Having a Recording Studio I cringe when someone makes the same claim you have made while we are spinning tape.

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aliasphobias Lol! Really glad I asked the question and thanks again for all that replied.

Already my SJ-200 sounds better! But I am going to change strings today.

 

I was called Scary Larry for my blues harp playing quite a while ago and the name stuck!

 

 

Best,

SL

 

Are you sorry you asked Larry? You aren't scary, we are. Good luck with the string choice and change!

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How do you accurately tune your guitar to Equal Temperament with your ears? Every one of the 12 notes we use except Octaves are purposely detuned by a miniscule amount so all keys and chords will sound equally "slightly out of tune". Having a Recording Studio I cringe when someone makes the same claim you have made while we are spinning tape.

 

Get real. One of the first things I learned when learning to play guitar was how to tune a guitar to standard tuning in 1962. We used to use a pitch pipe and the 6 tones were not rocket science. Hey, guess what...I know how to use a rotary dial phone, too. And, how to use a DOS computer. And, read a book from the library, too. And, type without looking

 

I assume you can recall a song in your head, yes. So what's the big thing about remembering 6 notes? Nothing.

 

I can't speak for the musicians you cringe at in your recording studio. But, I am sure they see or feel it and don't like it or you for being so condescending to them...and, if they can't tune I hope you help them with your electronic visual gadget because you apparently do not know how to tune by ear without one, it's obvious. You should try working at like I did.

 

Get a life...

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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How do you accurately tune your guitar to Equal Temperament with your ears? Every one of the 12 notes we use except Octaves are purposely detuned by a miniscule amount so all keys and chords will sound equally "slightly out of tune". Having a Recording Studio I cringe when someone makes the same claim you have made while we are spinning tape.

 

I’m more than sure that QM knows what he’s doing tuning wise. It’s a bit salty, if you don’t mind me saying, to suggest that somebody is incapable of tuning by ear. We have players and artists of all levels of experience (professional and amateur) here.

 

In terms of equal temperament, when the Chinese invented it back in the 16th century I’m fairly sure that they didn’t have a strobe tuner knocking about to check the accuracy of their partials.

 

Remember that Conn didn’t invent the electronic tuner until the late ‘30s, and the first tuner to not weigh/cost the same as house and be as fragile as a butterfly was the Peterson Portable in the mid ‘60s. Humans have been tuning by ear for a LOT longer than we have by electronic means.

 

I did some recording with Hank Marvin back in 2008, who showed up the studio with a Strat and a tuning fork.

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I'm more than sure that QM knows what he's doing tuning wise. It's a bit salty, if you don't mind me saying, to suggest that somebody is incapable of tuning by ear. We have players and artists of all levels of experience (professional and amateur) here.

 

In terms of equal temperament, when the Chinese invented it back in the 16th century I'm fairly sure that they didn't have a strobe tuner knocking about to check the accuracy of their partials.

 

Remember that Conn didn't invent the electronic tuner until the late '30s, and the first tuner to not weigh/cost the same as house and be as fragile as a butterfly was the Peterson Portable in the mid '60s. Humans have been tuning by ear for a LOT longer than we have by electronic means.

 

I did some recording with Hank Marvin back in 2008, who showed up the studio with a Strat and a tuning fork.

 

I have tuned "by ear" myself many times, it is a necessary skill to be a guitar player. But using an electronic tuner cannot be rivaled for accuracy. I got a Peterson VSAM ten years ago and have been hooked on its super accurate results that can never be achieve by ear alone. I am sure people have been struggling with the limitations of tuning by ear for centuries, they had no choice. How many of you still use Horse & Buggy to get to your gigs?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

 

 

 

 

 

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I have tuned "by ear" myself many times, it is a necessary skill to be a guitar player. But using an electronic tuner cannot be rivaled for accuracy. I got a Peterson VSAM ten years ago and have been hooked on its super accurate results that can never be achieve by ear alone. I am sure people have been struggling with the limitations of tuning by ear for centuries, they had no choice. How many of you still use Horse & Buggy to get to your gigs?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

 

Oddly enough I arrived at a gig in a horse and carriage a couple of years ago-it was a wedding gig and everyone was transported from car park to venue by horse and carriage convoy...I don’t make a habit of it though!!

 

I agree that electronic tuning does make everything quicker and easier both live and in the studio, but I totally respect anyone who can tune accurately by ear.

 

I used Petersons for years live, firstly the Strobostomp and later the Stomp Classic, they’re wonderful machines, but oddly enough I never got on with the “sweetened” tempered tuning setting. Perhaps I need to revisit and play around a little more.

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Oddly enough I arrived at a gig in a horse and carriage a couple of years ago-it was a wedding gig and everyone was transported from car park to venue by horse and carriage convoy...I don't make a habit of it though!!

 

I agree that electronic tuning does make everything quicker and easier both live and in the studio, but I totally respect anyone who can tune accurately by ear.

 

I used Petersons for years live, firstly the Strobostomp and later the Stomp Classic, they're wonderful machines, but oddly enough I never got on with the "sweetened" tempered tuning setting. Perhaps I need to revisit and play around a little more.

 

Did you use an Outhouse at the wedding? I never use sweetened tunings either, I like and accept Equal Temperament's compromise. I think I am going to be buying this soon. https://www.petersontuners.com/products/stroboplus/

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I did some recording with Hank Marvin back in 2008, who showed up the studio with a Strat and a tuning fork.

Relevant to nominate this as the Quote of the year, , , bet he also would have brought his rubber-band capo, had it been neccesary.

 

I still have my 1973 fork. Don't use it, but keep it on a little shelf as a museological artifact - even a readymade.

 

Maybe it's time to test its force, , , and the old ears. .

 

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JWG4927 I was wondering when someone would ask!

I believe it was 1974, when I lived in San Jose, Costa Rica.

A good friend sent me a bunch of photos so I decided to use one as my avatar!

 

 

good point aliasphobias

 

so scare us larry

 

what year was that avatar photo taken?

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UPDATE:

 

I installed a bone saddle and set of bone bridge pins and lowered the action from 8/64 (1/8) on low E and 7/64 on high e (@12) to 6/64 and 5/64, and replaced the strings with D'Addario EJ16's and I am now very happy with the guitar. It not only sounds better, it plays a lot better.

 

Thanks again for all the replies,

 

SL

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UPDATE:

 

I installed a bone saddle and set of bone bridge pins and lowered the action from 8/64 (1/8) on low E and 7/64 on high e (@12) to 6/64 and 5/64, and replaced the strings with D'Addario EJ16's and I am now very happy with the guitar. It not only sounds better, it plays a lot better.

 

Thanks again for all the replies,

 

SL

 

 

Glad to hear that. Lowering the saddle can reduce the volume a bit, I keep my low E at .105 which is a bit higher than what you have but lower than what you previously had. The top of the saddle at the D string should be around 1/2" for optimum volume.

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I still have my 1973 fork. Don't use it, but keep it on a little shelf as a museological artifact - even a readymade.

 

Maybe it's time to test its force, , , and the old ears. .

 

 

I still have an A 440 tuning fork (which is still here for sentimental reasons rather than practical ones), but sometimes play around with A frequency using one of my electronic tuners. There's nothing sacred about A 440 unless you are playing with others, at which point you have to agree on something.

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