The Gibson Advanced Jumbo

[mking]

I know that Gibson's first guitars were of the small type and when they went to the dreadnought size they were termed "jumbos". What was it about the Advanced Jumbo that gave it the "Advanced" title? Thanks.

[BigKahune]

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First use of advanced x- bracing.

 

http://www.gibson.com/products/acoustic-instruments/round-shoulder/gibson-acoustic/advanced-jumbo.aspx

 

 

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[Red 333]

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First use of advanced x- bracing.

 

http://www.gibson.com/products/acoustic-instruments/round-shoulder/gibson-acoustic/advanced-jumbo.aspx

 

 

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That ad copy in that link has very little to do with history or reality, unfortunately. Gibson is sometimes woefully ignorant or purposefully dismissive of its own history.

 

In the first advertisements for the Advanced Jumbo, it was described as an "advance" in size and appointments (fancy arrow fretboard and headstock inlays and rosewood back and sides) over previous models.

 

The name has nothing to with bracing patterns. Nobody talked about bracing patterns, then (and Gibson's patterns were changing rapidly; pre-war Gibsons built the same year often have differences in bracing from batch to batch, as well as other features). Guitar players or companies wouldn't start talking about bracing much until maybe the mid Seventies, when Martin enthusiasts began developing an appreciation of pre 1939 models, and attributing the sound of those instruments to the difference in the placement of the x on those models versus those made after 1939.

 

 

Red 333

[BigKahune]

That ad copy in that link has very little to do with history or reality, unfortunately. Gibson is sometimes woefully ignorant or purposefully dismissive of its own history. ... The name has nothing to with bracing patterns. ...

 

I respect your opinion, but I think you're being a bit misleading. Gibson isn't alone in their ad copy info, which IMO is based in history and reality. I could point to many other sources that support the AJ name being from it's advanced x-bracing. And so I'll just keep my opinion - With the AJ Gibson changed their x-bracing a bit and moved the x forward - "advanced" it toward the soundhole, and so came the name.

 

Round and round.

 

BTW - Happy Thanksgiving. . B)

 

 

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[62burst]

Very strange. 'Just measured distance from x brace to soundhole on a few of them (AJ/J-45): = the same ~. (?)

 

It would be pretty involved to measure from the center of the x to the butt (subtracting tail block thickness, & the light I had was not strong enough to make the x brace visible through the spruce), if anyone was up for it (Dave ).

 

Now to go down the rabbit hole: maybe the "advanced" part is not to the soundhole- all of the soundhole diameters I just measured had diameters of ~ 4". The maple AJ's is actually tapered out to 4" .

 

However. . . check the distance from your neck join (at fret 14) to soundhole: it's at or <3.5" on AJ's, and greater than 3.5 on the J-45's. So- is the soundhole moved closer to the x-brace on the J-45's ?

[Dave F]

My guitars are still in storage plus I no longer have an AJ. I remember a few years back, Tom had some great photos showing the differences of the bracing in some of his guitars.

[Red 333]

Many Gibson guitars advertised in 1935 (the year of the AJ's introduction) were described as "advanced," meaning improved over previous models. This is why they gave the highly decorated version of the model called the Jumbo the name Advanced Jumbo. Plain and simple. I will try to find the catalog and scan it so you can see.

 

Think about this: The narrower x brace pattern would not emerge until the forties. How could the wider x and it's position be an advance over that? It's only in retrospect that we compare the two and ascribe "advanced" to have anything to do with a comparison between bracing patterns and positions. In 1935, they couldn't compare the bracing to something that didn't exist!

 

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

Red 333

[JuanCarlosVejar]

As Big K has said.

 

Solely do to the bracing pattern:

 

 

 

 

JC

[tpbiii]

The picture below is a good summary of the early "J" model Gibson.

 

 

The two in the front row are the earliest J model Gibsons -- in this case a 1936 Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe (RSSD) and a 1935 Roy Smeck Radio Grande (RSRG). These models are both Hawaiian models -- 12-fret high action for slide playing Hawaiian style. The RSSD has mahogany back and sides and the RSRG has rosewood back and sides. They are often converted now for Spanish style playing.

 

When Gibson decided to introduce a 14 fret model, they used the Smeck body design. The first model was the "Jumbo," introduced in 1934 -- the same year Martin brought out the 14 fret D-18 and D-28. The guitar in the back row on the far right is a 1935 Jumbo.

 

In late 1936, Martin dropped the Jumbo, and brought out the "Jumbo35" (also called Trojan in its earliest form) and the Advanced Jumbo. The guitar on the back left is a 1936 Trojan and the center back is a 1936 Advanced Jumbo (AJ). The early Trojan/Jumbo35s has the same body as the Smecks and the Jumbo with mahogany back and sides. The Advanced Jumbo has a slight different body shape (more taper and very slightly less deep) and rosewood back and sides. That was the "advanced shape" and is basically identical in shape to all the Js that followed -- later (1937) J-35s, J-45s, J-50s, J-55s, SJs, CWs .... There were only about 235 made, the last two in 1940. They are often considered the best Js Gibson ever built.

Here is a blog post I wrote about 1930 RW Gibson guitars.

Here is some comparisons between iconic vintage Gibsons and Martins, including the 1936 AJ.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[E-minor7]

The position of the X really has X-factor.

Forward shifted, rear shifted, just straight.

Freer top, held back top, , , just plain tip-top, hehe. .

 

Very strange. 'Just measured distance from x brace to soundhole on a few of them (AJ/J-45): = the same ~. (?)

I have 'developed' a way of checking it from the hip.

Simply to set the index-finger in below the bass-string and press it mildly toward the approachable X-corner.

When doin' that you use the upper wrinkle between the 2 joints as measure-point - how visible/hidden is the (distal phalanx) beneath the sound-hole edge.

 

All the vintage G's here - slopes as squares - seem to be identical with the forward-shifted Martin HD-28V.

The contemporary J-45 too where the ditto squares have the X placed further in/down - H-Birds, Firebird, Dove.

 

Very effective when researching in the field - visiting shops, guitar-shows etc.

[BigKahune]

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Hey Tom - some interesting info from Gruhn Guitars -

 

'Gibson introduced the terms "advanced" and "jumbo" to the guitar world in 1934, but they wouldn't come together as one of the all time classic Gibson models until a few years later. "Advanced" referred to the body sizes of Gibson's archtop models, which were all "advanced" or increased by one inch in 1934. "Jumbo" was the new mahogany-bodied flat-top model, with 16-inch width and "round shouldered" dreadnought shape.

Late in 1936 "advanced" took on a different meaning with the debut of Gibson's Advanced Jumbo. This time the advancement was in the performance of the guitar. With the dreadnought shape, a Brazilian rosewood body and a 25 1/2-inch scale, the Advanced Jumbo was a powerful, booming flat-top - referred to in later Gibson literature as "the original acoustic cannon."' . Source: http://guitars.com/archived-inventory/Jumbo/advjumbos.html

 

Red - You mentioned "In 1935, they couldn't compare the bracing to something that didn't exist!" . Actually, the Original Jumbo came out in 1934 with its X-bracing 1 1/8" below the soundhole at 100 degrees with three tone bars. In 1935 the Advanced Jumbo came out with its x-bracing 1" below the soundhole at 105 degrees with two tone bars. Are you saying the Gibson people building these guitars didn't know they made these changes? I would think it was obvious and purposeful that the x-bracing was "forward shifted" (advanced) toward the soundhole in the AJ. Whether or not that had anything to do with the naming is now becoming a bit gray to me. . B)

 

 

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[tpbiii]

Red - You mentioned "In 1935, they couldn't compare the bracing to something that didn't exist!" . Actually, the Original Jumbo came out in 1934 with its X-bracing 1 1/8" below the soundhole at 100 degrees with three tone bars. In 1935 the Advanced Jumbo came out with its x-bracing 1" below the soundhole at 105 degrees with two tone bars. Are you saying the Gibson people building these guitars didn't know they made these changes? I would think it was obvious and purposeful that the x-bracing was "forward shifted" (advanced) toward the soundhole in the AJ. Whether or not that had anything to do with the naming is now becoming a bit gray to me. . B)

 

You should be careful attributing specs on one or a small group of Gibsons to all examples. For example, here is our 36 AJ

 

 

 

So obviously not all had two tone bars.

 

Here is the 1936 Trojan, which was probably on the bench at the same time.

 

The 35 Jumbo was the same layout.

 

Not everything in late 1936 was three tone bars -- scalloped or otherwise. Here is the 36 RSSD.

 

So the phrase "the only thing consistent about Gibson in the 30s is their inconsistency" is really quite true.

 

-Tom

[BigKahune]

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Thanks Tom. Of course I would expect a bit variability from guitar to guitar whoever the manufacturer. Those specs are quoted directly from Guitar HQ (formerly home.provide.net) which lists the "introduction specs" for the 1934 Gibson Jumbo and the late 1935 Gibson Advanced Jumbo (not the 1936). I've been using that source of information for years and have no reason to doubt them, but I'm not sure of their source. My point was, according to some sources Gibson purposefully move the "x" toward the soundhole with the 1935 AJ - something that other manufacturers were also doing in those years.

 

 

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[Red 333]

Yes, Gibson changed the bracing of their early flat tops quite a bit. There are numerous known variations. Gibson did not advertise this in its literature. They talked about their then new and almost exclusive adjustable truss rod, body size, ornamentation, wood, etc. Advanced is the word they used then to mean an imorovement relative to body size, ornamentation, performance, etc. There are numerous examples in Gibson literature of that era.

 

The AJ was originally made only a handful of years. I think three, but it's said there may have been a couple built in 1940. In the 1990's, Gibson reissued the model, and Ren Fergeson designed the pattern for its top bracing inspired by--but not an exact copy of--vintage two tone bar AJ bracing. They would later put this bracing into True Vintage slopes, some of the Fuller's reissues, the J-35, the Songwriter series, and others. Because it was developed and first used in the AJ reissue, and because the braces resultant of this pattern are marked "advanced" on them, we all here call this wide x pattern "advanced." But it is only in a bit of revisionist history that we think the guitar was named for the bracing pattern (which wasn't even standardized at the time!)

 

Remember, the 1935 AJ was only the second spanish style dreadnaught (it was released the same year as the J-35, but I forget which was actually built first, so maybe it was technically third. And of course there is the transitional model between the Jumbo and the J-35 that we now call the Trojan, but that's another matter!). These 1934 and 1935 guitars number only in the hundreds. Not such a big market that Gibson would advertise a change in bracing (which of course, provably, they never did), especially when they often changed bracing! The J-35 has several variations, as does The AJ. The AJ was named because it was an advance in size of the small bodied flat tops that preceded it, in ornamentation of the 1934 Jumbo, and (subjectively) performance. Stuff that buyers cared about then. The awareness of bracing is the stuff of us modern guitar nerds!

 

Red 333

[tpbiii]

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Thanks Tom. Of course I would expect a bit variability from guitar to guitar whoever the manufacturer. Those specs are quoted directly from Guitar HQ with lists the "introduction specs" for the 1934 Gibson Jumbo and the late 1935 Gibson Advanced Jumbo (not the 1936). I've been using that source of information for years and have no reason to doubt them, but I'm not sure of their source. My point was, according to some sources Gibson purposefully move the "x" toward the soundhole with the 1935 AJ - something that other manufacturers were also doing in those years.

 

 

 

I appreciate you putting that information up for sure!! I certainly did not mean to imply something negative. The study of old Gibsons specs is so difficult if you want to get it right, but I think that was not really obvious until large numbers of owners started meeting on line and comparing what they had. The early documenters assumed -- not irrationally I would say -- that if you had seen a few, you had the information you needed. Unlike Martin -- who documented everything and much of the documentation survived - relative little of the Gibson documentation is still around. Studying the shipping records -- which did survive -- is sort of like pushing a car with a rope.

 

We basically study the guitars we own a lot, but whereas that might tell us a lot about something, it does not tell us about all old guitars. We do indeed own one good example of all the old models that interest us. For the Martins, that tells us quite a lot about all old Martins -- for the Gibsons not so much. I generally post when I have first hand information -- I am after all a geek.

 

All the best,

 

-Tom