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Les Paul Stop tail adjustmenbt How or why

#61 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 04:09 AM

View Postrickc, on 30 January 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

Golden: I'm clearly having problems following your thought processes; I think we are both losing each other!

You are trying way to hard to read things into what I wrote that are not there. Again, I have never stated that the material that the guitar is made of does not have any impact on tone or sustain; I did state that the relationship between transmission of sound to the guitar through the bridge is far more relevant with a conventional guitar than with a solid bodied electric. Again, my statement that tone and sustain differences between different guitars would be more relevant was specific to playing clean tones, i.e. undistorted and not heavily processed; I also acknowledged that there is a difference between my ES-335 and my LP despite almost everything being the same except for the bodies. I think we are on the same side!

Funny enough, I have a little Hohner G3T; its got no head, almost no body, no string excess at the Steinberger whammy end, two single coils and one humbucker. It plays and sounds great with good sustain and despite it's 010-046 strings, (all my other electrics run 008-038) it's slinky enough for me.

Let's go back to basics; the thread started with a simple query regarding tail stop adjustment. Compared to everything else regarding guitar set-up and construction, tail stop adjustment has a very minimal impact on tone or play-ability. Ability to play trumps all.





Well "everyone above"must have tried "really hard:" to read too much into the quote below in relation to this ........."I have never stated that the material that the guitar is made of does not have any impact on tone or sustain" which appears contradictory to below. And these ARE the basics which seem well not basic in your quotes? Its not people are reading TOO MUCH into what your saying they are attempting to comprehend what your saying, so wood matters, and in either a electric or acoustic and both rely significantly on string vibration through the body. So why are electrics not the same minus the sound chamber/electronics in relevance to wood? The fact is they are so why the distinction to point out what? The degree of what matters in importance in your opinion? And in this sequence the wood matters not at all or least of all and the tail stop adjustment has a very minimal impact. But all materials matter as do adjustments. Seems to me you would like to talk in both relevance and specifics at the same time. But when pressed on specifics relevance is the path. "I have never stated that the material that the guitar is made of does not have any impact on tone or sustain"


Quote


Just my simple take on this; an acoustic or electric acoustic guitar relies very significantly on the transmission of the strings' vibrations through the bridge and into the body of the guitar and the body amplifying the sound through the sound hole. Electric guitars are not the same

Pickup selection has a much bigger impact on electric guitar tone than any of the little mechanical details regarding bridge and tail pieces. String gauges also have a huge impact on playability and in many cases, tone. Amps have a huge imact


This post has been edited by Golden: 31 January 2018 - 04:46 AM

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#62 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 05:00 AM

Despite myself I find I am slowly getting mired in here...
Oddly enough - and perhaps confusingly - I actually agree with most points made by most posters. Perhaps I am interpreting what is being written slightly differently from how others are interpreting things?

Anyhow, another tuppenceworth from these shores regarding;

View Postrickc, on 30 January 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

...All my electrics...are completely different from each other in design, pups and circuitry. My LP and the ES-335 are the closest to each other, the 87 LP has Tim Shaw PAFs...The 88 ES-335 has a...57 Classic in the neck position and the original Bill Lawrence HB lead at the bridge. Although really close, not the same...

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
I have two solid-body Les Paul Re-Issues; a 1993 R9 and a 1995 R0.
Made just two years apart they share everything in common as regards hardware, electronics, body & neck materials and (neck-profile apart) design and method of construction. Yet they each sound different from one another both unplugged and when amplified.

Why?

Posted Image

Pip.

EDIT : Just to say there is no cigar waiting for the correct answer. I've been pondering this puzzle for over a decade now and only have my own hunch as to 'Why?'. I've even had a friend compare tonal output from each on an oscilloscope and he confirmed that what I thought I had been hearing did exist and was not just a figment of my imagination.

This post has been edited by pippy: 31 January 2018 - 05:13 AM

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#63 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 05:28 AM

They are not identical Pip, even if they were they would sound different. Obviously two guitars with all the same parts can sound different with variations in the grain, build tolerance, slightly different values of caps, hardware adjustments, aged wood, string tension etc. But the point remains, there are differences, and that difference can be evaluated. Imo if you strip both electrics and swap all the hardware, electronics and so forth making one set, they will still sound different though perhaps closer. So whats left in the sequence which can make a difference? If we use the same everything swapped out on two of the same model guitars then all thats left is wood and tolerance and both make a difference being my on-going point and nor does it change because its logical. Whats not logical is tolerance makes no difference but here at this junction only the wood does?

Just saying and in fact from ricks level of priority where the wood matters very little on an electric then I guess the tolerance must be the difference mattering the most? So apparently he implicity agrees which is what Im reading in to this. But then comes this.........

Quote

Compared to everything else regarding guitar set-up and construction, tail stop adjustment has a very minimal impact on tone or play-ability.



Translates to "tolerance" which IS construction and has a minimal impact but the wood even less? Just to put that statement in perspective of relevance. Then there is nothing left to equivicate and they still sound different. In ricks story of relevance theres nothing left to compare which will make a difference yet the difference still exists.

So again and sorry, Im not comprehending what hes saying nor can I imagine anyone else is at this point.

This post has been edited by Golden: 31 January 2018 - 06:14 AM

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#64 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:13 AM

Well, FWIW, my conclusion is that the difference is mainly down to each lump of timber from which the guitars were crafted - and especially the piece of mahogany which constitutes the neck. Over the years I've noticed that the guitars which 'ring out' better have a certain quality which can be felt through the vibrations - most noticeably at the rear of the neck.

Certainly the 500k pots may not all have precisely the same value and much the same applies to the various caps and the 57 Classics in each but all of this only matters when the guitar is amplified. As I said in my earlier post there is a measurable tonal difference when unplugged as well and, obviously, this cannot be put down to variations in electrical values.

Just my hunch - but it is borne out by all I have experienced since this hunch occured to me some ten years ago. It just cannot be proven to be true - which is a bit of a pity...

Pip.
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#65 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:19 AM

Well Pip its down to wood and tolerance-QC "in general" not specifically on your electrics. So in your opinion what difference does the tolerance make? Quite a bit no?
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#66 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:46 AM

View PostGolden, on 31 January 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

Well Pip its down to wood and tolerance-QC "in general" not specifically on your electrics. So in your opinion what difference does the tolerance make? Quite a bit no?

I think the deciding factor is the actual lump of wood from which the neck has been fashioned, how it behaves once fashioned and how harmonically it resonates in conjunction with vibrating strings.

Over the years I've played many dozens of Les Pauls - well into three figures - and once I'd initially noticed an apparent corollary between how some guitars had what I considered to be a preferred tone both unplugged AND amplified I started to concentrate a lot more during the 'dry-run' stage in an effort to work out why some were 'better' (IMO) than others. The four LPs I currently own were bought because, when I was out on the hunt, they were the most 'alive' guitars I played. The hunt for the R0 alone took the greater part of a year and after playing perhaps 70-80 LPs in that time period.

The other LPs I've played and which I would choose to buy in the period since I bought the last of my quartet also have this 'quality' which I've noticed I happen to prefer.

As to the magnitude of the difference? Impossible to quantify. We have all played a few LPs which have been 'dead'. We have all played LPs which have been better and we have all played LPs which we think are great. I've only played a relatively small number - certainly fewer than a dozen - which I would say were Outstanding. But as far as being able to measure, somehow, this desirable essence which some small number of individual instruments possess?

No Idea.

Pip.
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#67 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 07:11 AM

Heres the issue.. we all know the wood matters and from many many examples, as does construction and tolerance but what we cant do is reassemble an already perfectly built guitar with a slightly different neck tolerance to the exact point that the sound variance becomes discernable BUT for sure they know the failure point which is why a specific tolerance is allowed in production of .1 degree to begin with.

So imho you have preference CS, then acceptability which really may be similiar in overall build minus the neck joint, then further you have failure. There may be no discernable tone difference within the 1 degree. Just an appearence -visual issue. You also cant correct it by changing a proven method of build and especially since the issue is not on all the LPs etc....its not the rule but an exception to the rule. However further altering the angle and string with obstruction...off the top of my head....I cant think of a single good reason why that wouldnt make a difference.

Anyway imo we made further progress with this than usual... But I agree with everyone here you should really look and if need be take someone with you who like all these guys...know these guitars. The right neck angle shows in all aspects. Not just the stop tail but the bridge height the pick-up height and thus the overall symmetry of a very successful design/string action/vibration.

So in this sense its really hard to blame Gibson. I think its the nature of the design unless that tolerance is for example cut in half to a less observable point. But for example on the SG, I look for this and a straight neck decent fret work etc ....

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This post has been edited by Golden: 31 January 2018 - 07:16 AM

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#68 User is offline   Farnsbarns 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 07:22 AM

It's interesting pip. One of our first conversations on here was about the very subject of neck resonance. We didn't agree on exactly why though.

I have since been given another view point and the more I experiment, the more it seems to hold water. Perhaps try this on yours.

Hold your guitar with your right hand grasping the body at the strap button and the other hand grasping the head stock and ask a friend to hit the strings. The theory is that as the vibration 'blooms' and the whole thing starts to resonate, you should feel vibrations of a similar strength, and at the same moment, in each hand. Try this on a 'dud' and the neck vibrations seem weaker and later to arrive.

Just a hypothesis, of course, and almost certainly not the be all and end all but an interesting experiment.
I'm not drunk, you're blurry.

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#69 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 08:06 AM

Quote

the neck vibrations seem weaker and later to arrive



I have to check it out, I've checked vibration on both ends but not quite this way, interesting. In this sense Im not sure what happens but it seems the vibration creates a mechanical resonance through the wood, and this then becomes restricted various ways, wood itself for example with dry/wet issues aging etc.


I think with the semi hollows this becomes more pronounced which is hard to qualify when we add laminated in this equation .
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#70 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 08:09 AM

View PostFarnsbarns, on 31 January 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

...One of our first conversations on here was about the very subject of neck resonance. We didn't agree on exactly why though....
I have since been given another view point and the more I experiment, the more it seems to hold water. Perhaps try this on yours......ask a friend to hit the strings...

You know I don't have any friends, Farns, so stop your teasing...

Yeah..."Neck Resonance; the Whys and the Wherefores. Discuss". I don't doubt I was yapping on about it back then; it was a thorn in my side for years.
Was I saying much the same stuff back then as I'm saying now? I hope I've been reasonably stubborn consistent in my end-views...

Your idea sounds fun. I'm shooting from home over the next few days if you fancy whacking my strings for me?
I might even dispense the odd cuppa char at timely intervals. How's Flight's shift pattern these days? If he's free he might want to pop around too.

Just a thought!

Pip.
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#71 User is offline   Farnsbarns 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 08:29 AM

View Postpippy, on 31 January 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

You know I don't have any friends, Farns, so stop your teasing...

Yeah..."Neck Resonance; the Whys and the Wherefores. Discuss". I don't doubt I was yapping on about it back then; it was a thorn in my side for years.
Was I saying much the same stuff back then as I'm saying now? I hope I've been reasonably stubborn consistent in my end-views...

Your idea sounds fun. I'm shooting from home over the next few days if you fancy whacking my strings for me?
I might even dispense the odd cuppa char at timely intervals. How's Flight's shift pattern these days? If he's free he might want to pop around too.

Just a thought!

Pip.


He's on nights all this week I think.
I'm not drunk, you're blurry.

Farns
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#72 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:19 AM

View Postpippy, on 31 January 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

...Your idea sounds fun. I'm shooting from home over the next few days if you fancy whacking my strings for me?


While you guys are at it, comfortably hang the guitar and walk around playing it. Strum big fat open chords with the headstock firmly against a door frame, see how much amplification that frame will give a few different guitars.

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#73 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:43 AM

View Postrct, on 31 January 2018 - 09:19 AM, said:

While you guys are at it, comfortably hang the guitar and walk around playing it. Strum big fat open chords with the headstock firmly against a door frame, see how much amplification that frame will give a few different guitars...

Never mind the door frames! Hereabouts we have 1920's six-panel solid pine doors so the panels themselves act as great sounding-boards. Being the age they are these doors also feature long tenon construction and that, of course, makes a huge difference to our doors' end-tone. We've also had them dipped'n'stripped back to bare wood to let the wood itself breathe better.

The bathroom door seems to be particularly resonant.

Pip.

This post has been edited by pippy: 31 January 2018 - 09:45 AM

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#74 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:50 AM

Interestingly enough, my 66 Firebird and one of my L-6sii, I believe the later one, 75 I think, both exhibited no interaction with door frames. I assumed then and now that the neck just wasn't cooperating. Also interesting that I had neither guitar for long.

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#75 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 09:55 AM

View Postrct, on 31 January 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Interestingly enough, my 66 Firebird and one of my L-6sii, I believe the later one, 75 I think, both exhibited no interaction with door frames. I assumed then and now that the neck just wasn't cooperating...

"Quod Erat Demonstrandum" as the Kray Twins used to quip whilst nailing some niggardly miscreant's head to the floor.

What more proof can anyone ever need?
That settles it. Never mind plugging a guitar into an amp. Next time I go shopping for an electric guitar I'm taking a doorframe with me.

Pip.

This post has been edited by pippy: 31 January 2018 - 10:06 AM

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#76 User is offline   Black Dog 

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:32 AM

View Postpippy, on 31 January 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

Never mind the door frames! Hereabouts we have 1920's six-panel solid pine doors so the panels themselves act as great sounding-boards. Being the age they are these doors also feature long tenon construction and that, of course, makes a huge difference to our doors' end-tone. We've also had them dipped'n'stripped back to bare wood to let the wood itself breathe better.

The bathroom door seems to be particularly resonant.

Pip.


Yes, but if the six panel doors were not assembled using hot hide glue the tone, sustain and resonance will be inferior regardless of the tenon length. That's just a fact.
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