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A Layman's Guide to a Business Model..

#21 User is offline   dava4444 

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostLarsongs, on 12 May 2018 - 11:31 PM, said:

I've played just about every new Fender including some at Summer NAMM. USA, MIM & Asian. With the exception of the Top of the Line USA Guitars their QC leaves a lot to be desired. Rough Necks & Fret edges in particular on just about all of them. The VM Line are the worst. Basically a Guitar designed to be rebuilt into a Guitar by Modders. Then some of the weird concoctions from the Parts Bins? I own several older Fenders. I wanted to buy a new Tele but they don't make one I'd buy right now. I want an American Thinline with Traditional Bridge, Pickups, Tuners, Maple Neck, Switches & Controls. They don't make it! Unless you go Custom Shop for $4500.00. I checked.

I agree Gibson is going through some tough times right now but I feel their Import line of Epi's offers some great Guitars at bargain prices. Also there are some great deals to be had on some excellent quality USA Gibsons. You may have to buy, return & exchange. Or send it to Gibson Factory for Warranty work to get it right. And when they get it right they're great. That's something you can't do with a Fender.

I have a good collection of Gibsons & Epi's. I bought a new Gretsch instead.

Lars



Hi Lars

From what you have written, you must have a LOT of money, enough to afford higher end stuff, Gibson is in a place that Fender is not, Fender have ways of generating income by hitting that £300/$400 price point, Gibson struggles to do this, I own a collection of 30+ guitars, many of them Squiers.. hmmm maybe that's too generalized :/
My first 'real' guitar was a 1994 Fender Mexican Contemporary Special Strat bought as a shop return in 1995. I took it to a luthier for dress & level and it smashes many modern era guitars. I still own it today. I don't know what you are talking about as far as QC goes, I and many others disagree.. but I realize I should be cagey in praising Fender too much on this website.

You seem to questioning my knowledge of QC. I am happy with Mexican Fender's QC..I'm not the only one.
Epiphone however..I have hated every SEA Epiphone I have ever owned and could not wait to see the back of it, Every Squier I sold I later regretted selling and missed.
The only Epi's worth anything to me are 70's era Japanese Epi's.. the Scroll Custom is one of my dream guitars.

I guess this is a good excuse to show off the guitars I own, so you and anyone know I'm not talking from imagination..

Posted Image
Posted Image
1965 Trans-Era Fender Mustang (rebuilt by myself)
Posted Image
You can see my collection of Alden's mixed in there.. and my collection of Showmaster/Stagemasters
Posted Image
Posted Image

I've been busy refinishing the Gibson SG with the Jaguar Trem into a more solid black with heavier gloss.

Posted Image

Lovely Japanese guitar:
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2004 American Standard (Deluxe body with replacement neck)
Posted Image

plays great but the noiseless pickups make this crazy oscillation under high gain.:/

1986 Peavey USA Falcon Deluxe (Basically a 80's American Standard Strat Plus.. not to be confused with the cheaper but still good USA Predator)

Posted Image


Point being.. I too want Gibson to protect their brand. Make USA guitars (even though I am Scottish).. but because Gibson's revenue streams are so limited there imho need to be a bridge between the SEA Epiphones and full blown Gibsons.. flip I am NOT buying another new Gibson after all the palava I went through with the 2015 SG Standard :( I dropped £850 on that.. thats a huge chunk of cash!

But if you offer me a way of getting North American QC without that hefty price tag.. maybe I would and others would take that chance.. and Gibson have been flirting with the lower end for ages (since 2006?) it's just a fact that the States (and pretty much all western countries) have priced themselves out of the job market. Current Mex Fender's have moved to a flat radius fretboard, which I feel was a big mistake.. but that's a design issue/decision not a QC issue. If Gibson still want to charge big money for their models.. they need a revenue that will enable them to do so without hurting their brand as a whole.. Epiphone *I feel* cannot provide that stability, a third 'middle brand' *I feel* could..

kind regards

Dava

This post has been edited by dava4444: 13 May 2018 - 07:53 PM

Epiphone Scroll Custom (SC550) Black Beauty 1979
Gibson SG "Gothic Hotrod" Ebony 2013
Gibson SG Melody Maker "Hotrod Deluxe" Pelham Blue 2011
see pic:
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#22 User is offline   Megafrog 

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 08:22 PM

So you are proposing that the bankrupt company open up a new manufacturing site in Mexico to build Orville guitars, adding another product line to promote etc?
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#23 User is offline   dava4444 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:06 AM

View PostMegafrog, on 13 May 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

So you are proposing that the bankrupt company open up a new manufacturing site in Mexico to build Orville guitars, adding another product line to promote etc?


OR the rumor-mill has been cranking out that the creditors will move Gibson to China.

So... ? what would you suggest Mega?
Epiphone Scroll Custom (SC550) Black Beauty 1979
Gibson SG "Gothic Hotrod" Ebony 2013
Gibson SG Melody Maker "Hotrod Deluxe" Pelham Blue 2011
see pic:
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#24 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:17 AM

View Postdava4444, on 14 May 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

OR the rumor-mill has been cranking out that the creditors will move Gibson to China.


Gibson Brands Inc. is in a state of bankruptcy that means the bondholders are running the company solely for their own repayment. The creditors would have to go to court to move their claims against the company, which are many, ahead of the bondholders. In that instance, the company would be sold in pieces to satisfy the creditors. A very large percentage of the creditors are suppliers and other stakeholders in Gibson Guitars.

"move Gibson to China" is not nearly as simple as the rumor-mill thinks it is.

rct
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#25 User is online   Rabs 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:15 AM

The QC thing is odd... Ive never seen a bad Gibson in real life or ones with the QC issues that I see reported on here... Im not actually doubting that they exist as ive seen the pictures but im not sure they are as wide spread as people think...

As for what Gibson should do next it matters not what any of us think.. Unless one of you are up for the new CEO role at Gibson?

The one obvious thing is to do what they have already stated they will do which is to dump all the non guitar related businesses' and concentrate on the Guitar side of the business which from what I have read was still turning over $100 million a year. It seems cos of the fact Tronical are suing them they have dumped the auto tuners so theres that out of the way.

The rest will come down to who ever takes overs business plan.

Personally I still think they should start making amps again.. Or do a deal with Marshall or something.. That makes more sense to me than some of the other weird things they have done the last decade or so.

This post has been edited by Rabs: 14 May 2018 - 11:42 AM

"Im the one thats going to have to die when its time for me to die. So let me live my life, the way I WANT TOO" Jimi Hendrix
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#26 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:26 AM

View PostRabs, on 14 May 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

The one obvious thing is to do what they have already stated they will do which is to dump all the non guitar related businesses' and concentrate on the Guitar side of the business which from what I have read was still turning over $1 Billion a year.


And there it is again.

2017 110 million.

January 2017 to January 2018, 121 million. A modest 10% growth in revenue for Gibson Guitars.

I just don't know where this freakin 1 BILLION thing came from.

rct
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#27 User is offline   kidblast 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:30 AM

View PostRabs, on 14 May 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

Personally I still think they should start making amps again.. Or do a deal with Marshall or something.. That makes more sense to me than some of the other weird things they have done the last decade or so.


Well they tried this already w/the Trace Elliot Acquisition about 18 years ago. Seems that it didn't weather the storm all that well, even tho the Goldtone Amps were excellent. Those that bought them were well pleased, but I guess the idea never really caught on. I still have the 2x12 30watt combo I purchased in 2003. I have no plans to part ways with it.
/Ray
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#28 User is online   Rabs 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:33 AM

View Postrct, on 14 May 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

And there it is again.

2017 110 million.

January 2017 to January 2018, 121 million. A modest 10% growth in revenue for Gibson Guitars.

I just don't know where this freakin 1 BILLION thing came from.

rct

Im sure I read it on several different web sites.. But I wont say it again :)
"Im the one thats going to have to die when its time for me to die. So let me live my life, the way I WANT TOO" Jimi Hendrix
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#29 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:37 AM

View PostRabs, on 14 May 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Im sure I read it on several different web sites.. But I wont say it again :)


Good lord I don't know where or how people come up with such a thing. It would only take about three minutes of looking at what constitutes a 1 Billion dollar a year subsidiary of a larger corporation to see that 1 Billion is more than twice the size of all 10 of Gibson Brands Inc.

Crazy talk. The filing lists the value of the entire company at 100 to 500 million.

rct
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#30 User is online   Rabs 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:42 AM

View Postrct, on 14 May 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Good lord I don't know where or how people come up with such a thing. It would only take about three minutes of looking at what constitutes a 1 Billion dollar a year subsidiary of a larger corporation to see that 1 Billion is more than twice the size of all 10 of Gibson Brands Inc.

Crazy talk. The filing lists the value of the entire company at 100 to 500 million.

rct

It did seem odd.. Its just a number that stuck in my head that I didn't really think about. Cos really if they were making that much they wouldn't be in this situation would they...

Im going to edit the post now.

My brain has not been working properly the last 6 months or so :( too much stress.
"Im the one thats going to have to die when its time for me to die. So let me live my life, the way I WANT TOO" Jimi Hendrix
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#31 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:45 AM

View PostRabs, on 14 May 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

It did seem odd.. Its just a number that stuck in my head that I didn't really think about. Cos really if they were making that much they wouldn't be in this situation would they...

Im going to edit the post now.

My brain has not been working properly the last 6 months or so :( too much stress.


It's ok. It's been in all kinds of guitar places, it isn't just you.

rct
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#32 User is offline   Big Bill 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:11 PM

I started that rumor. Posted Image
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#33 User is offline   FZ Fan 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:18 PM

View PostBig Bill, on 14 May 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

I started that rumor. Posted Image


It figures.
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#34 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:51 PM

All the rumour mill needs is a little bit of careful editing of otherwise sane posts.
For instance, here on this very page I read someone who knows 'what's-what' state...

View Postrct, on 14 May 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

I know that 1 Billion is the size of Gibson Brands Inc.

rct


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Pip.
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#35 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:12 PM

Indeed. [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

rct
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#36 User is offline   Big Bill 

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:28 PM

Busted!!!! Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Gibson Les Paul Standard
Gibson ES 339 Memphis
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Fender 12 String Acoustic
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#37 User is offline   Gaolee 

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:21 PM

View Postrct, on 14 May 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

Gibson Brands Inc. is in a state of bankruptcy that means the bondholders are running the company solely for their own repayment. The creditors would have to go to court to move their claims against the company, which are many, ahead of the bondholders. In that instance, the company would be sold in pieces to satisfy the creditors. A very large percentage of the creditors are suppliers and other stakeholders in Gibson Guitars.

"move Gibson to China" is not nearly as simple as the rumor-mill thinks it is.

rct

I doubt Gibson will be moved to China. From what I have read, the only profitable part of Gibson lately is the guitar building operation. Creditors won't want to foul that up, since that's how they get repaid. They will sell off as much of the rest of the company as they can, then I would expect they would sell off the guitar making business to some entity who wanted to build guitars or set it up as a free-standing business that generates profit and pays them back. The whole point is to get paid back. Devaluing Gibson won't get them paid back.
Thump to live.
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#38 User is offline   Megafrog 

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:22 PM

View Postdava4444, on 14 May 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

OR the rumor-mill has been cranking out that the creditors will move Gibson to China.

So... ? what would you suggest Mega?


My suggestion to Gibson is to get back to basics, build a quality product that people want.
Equipment:
I have guitars, amps, pedals, cables, various other things and a strong affinity for short signature lines. . .
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