ShowPony Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Hi all I am wondering if Gibson Acoustics have an oddball Scale Length like Gibson solid bodies Les Pauls for example do not measure half the Scale Length from the nut to the 12th fret like most other guitars I am hoping if you own a J-45 or a Songwriter etc, could you measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret? cheers, thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponty Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 This will help you...Wikipedia When referring to stringed instruments, the scale length (often simply called the "scale") is the maximum vibrating length of the strings that produce sound, and determines the range of tones that string can produce at a given tension. It's also called string length. On instruments in which strings are not "stopped" or divided in length (typically by frets, the player's fingers, or other mechanism), such as the piano, it is the actual length of string between the nut and the bridge. String instruments produce sound through the vibration of their strings. The range of tones these strings can produce is determined by three primary factors: the mass of the string (related to its thickness as well as other aspects of its construction: density of the metal/alloy etc.), the tension placed upon it, and the instrument's scale length. On many, but not all, instruments, the strings are at least roughly the same length, so the instrument's scale can be expressed as a single length measurement, as for example in the case of the violin or guitar. On other instruments, the strings are of different lengths according to their pitch, as for example in the case of the harp or piano. On most modern fretted instruments, the actual string length is a bit longer than the scale length, to provide some compensation[1] for the "sharp" effect caused by the string being slightly stretched when it is pressed against the fingerboard. This causes the pitch of the note to go slightly sharp (higher in pitch). Another factor in modern instrument design is that, at the same tension, thicker strings are more sensitive to this effect, which is why saddles on acoustic (and often electric) guitars are set on a slight diagonal. This gives the thicker strings slightly more length. All other things being equal, increasing the scale length of an instrument requires an increase in string tension for a given pitch. A musical string may be divided by the twelfth root of two 2 12 \scriptstyle {\sqrt[ {12}]{2}}, approximately 1.059463094 and the result taken as the string-length position at which the next semitone pitch (fret position) should be placed from the previous fret (or, in case this is the first calculation, the nut or zero fret) of the instrument. This quotient is then divided again by itself to locate the next semitone higher, and so on. Alternatively, the string may be divided by 2 12 2 12 1 \scriptstyle {\frac {{\sqrt[ {12}]{2}}}{{\sqrt[ {12}]{2}}-1}}, approximately 17.817154, and the quotient taken as the location of the next semitone pitch from the nut of the instrument. The remainder is again divided by 17.817154 to locate the next semitone pitch higher, and so on. For centuries the divisor 18 was used instead; this "Eighteen Rule" produced a sort of rough compensation. Actual fret spacing on the fretboard was often done by trial and error method (testing) over the ages. Since the nineteenth century, however, luthiers generally use precision measuring instruments to lay out frets with mathematical accuracy. In many instruments, for example the violin, the scale of a full-sized instrument is strictly standardised. Smaller scale instruments exist for: Younger players Smaller advanced players A particular tone or effect Convenience when travelling Larger than standard scale instruments are rare, but may be used by experimental and avant-garde players, or specially made for soloists with particularly extended reach. In other instruments, for example the viola and the electric guitar, the scale of a full-sized instrument varies a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 See now , before this came up I wouldn’t give a monkeys And I’m trying real hard to ignore this , but a little part of me now wants to measure Forums eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly campbell Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 See now , before this came up I wouldn’t give a monkeys And I’m trying real hard to ignore this , but a little part of me now wants to measure Forums eh ? Exactly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 Exactly.. Hopefully throughout the day someone who actually owns one can chime in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Just for the record I measured a Songwriter today and figured it to be 12th fret 321mm (12.63") 20th fret 440.1mm (17.32") So yes they are different to the norm which would be 12th fret 323.85mm (12.75") 20th fret 443.68mm (17.46") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG4927 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 J-45 is 12.375", which is half of it's 24.75 scale length So all is right with the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 I also measured a J-45 today and it was 312.4mm which is 12.3" And comparing the difference its almost 2mm shorter It can be very hard to measure frets and I've done so much of it I forget how hard it is. And that's why I also measure the last fret The thing is that Gibson use a different number in the fret spacing calculation which places the frets just slightly different to using the 12th root of 2, and the result is you get better overall intonation And that's why I am a Gibson fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 The thing is that Gibson use a different number in the fret spacing calculation which places the frets just slightly different to using the 12th root of 2, and the result is you get better overall intonation So you are saying guitars with one scale length have "better overall intonation" than guitars of another scale length? rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 So you are saying guitars with one scale length have "better overall intonation" than guitars of another scale length? rct No its the number used in the calculation, which may differ for each scale length, its more to do with string gauge Most guitars have perfect intonation on the first string then it gets worse with the heavier gauge strings Gibson have it figured out so the intonation is better overall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Everyone thinks that if you measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret and double it, you get the scale length. But that only works if the frets have been placed using the "12th root of 2" in the formula When you use a different number in the formula the 12th fret does not land on half the scale length Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Everyone thinks that if you measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret and double it, you get the scale length. I think that everyone thinks that if you measure the scale length and divide it by 2 you will get the approximate location of the 12th fret. By placing the fretting point at half the scale length by use of moveable saddles or a well placed acoustic saddle you will have a properly intonated guitar, which all guitars are capable of no matter what formula was used. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 ...you will have a properly intonated guitar...rct My experience is a properly intonated Gibson will have better intonation than any other properly intonated guitar "any other" meaning Fender, Gretsch, Epiphone, Ibanez etc. etc. There are bound to be Luthiers around who also do what Gibson do For example the fret spacing for a 61 Reissue is slightly different to a modern SG. The older gibsons were more suited to heavier gauge strings and the newer ones more suited to lighter gauge strings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Too much math... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 My experience is a properly intonated Gibson will have better intonation than any other properly intonated guitar "any other" meaning Fender, Gretsch, Epiphone, Ibanez etc. etc. There are bound to be Luthiers around who also do what Gibson do For example the fret spacing for a 61 Reissue is slightly different to a modern SG. The older gibsons were more suited to heavier gauge strings and the newer ones more suited to lighter gauge strings I have a house full of properly intonated Fenders, Gibsons, Martins, and one Squier. I invite you over to show me how the Gibsons are any better intonated than the others, we'll use my Peterson Strobe, we'll video it and put it up here. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 What I'm saying here is if you have not had any fancy fretwork done or compensation at the nut Take a Gibson and a Fender Set the intonation correct at the 12th fret of the 1st and 6th strings on both guitars The Fender should intonate perfectly on the 1st string all the way up, every fret. But on the 6th string above the 12th fret it will be flat The Gibson will be sharp above the 12th fret on both strings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 anyone else a little bewildered here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 anyone else a little bewildered here ? Sorry I'm trying to edit LOL At second look I realise my post doesn't answer the question. I'm trying to upload an image but its too big Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Sorry I'm trying to edit LOL At second look I realise my post doesn't answer the question. I'm trying to upload an image but its too big I’m not sure a, if the knowledge is justified And b, how anyone is better off by knowing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 I’m not sure a, if the knowledge is justified And b, how anyone is better off by knowing it When I'm asked a question I try to answer it But at the moment I'm stuck trying to upload an image. I'm not familiar with this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 What I'm saying here is if you have not had any fancy fretwork done or compensation at the nut Take a Gibson and a Fender Set the intonation correct at the 12th fret of the 1st and 6th strings on both guitars The Fender should intonate perfectly on the 1st string all the way up, every fret. But on the 6th string above the 12th fret it will be flat The Gibson will be sharp above the 12th fret on both strings None of my guitars have had any fancy fretwork done outside of being worn down and flattened by me. My offer stands. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 I have a house full of properly intonated Fenders, Gibsons, Martins, and one Squier. I invite you over to show me how the Gibsons are any better intonated than the others, we'll use my Peterson Strobe, we'll video it and put it up here. rct What I'm saying is they will intonate differently. Some people may prefer the way a Fender intonates and others prefer the Gibson I have an image of readings I took to compare how an Epiphone compares to a Gibson but I'm having no luck uploading it but in short when both guitars are intonated at the 12th fret The Epiphone is flat above the 12th fret while the Gibson is sharp above the 12th fret I do apologies if I've come across the wrong way at all, I currently have a terrible toothache and the pain killers aren't working very well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 What I'm saying is they will intonate differently. Some people may prefer the way a Fender intonates and others prefer the Gibson I have an image of readings I took to compare how an Epiphone compares to a Gibson but I'm having no luck uploading it but in short when both guitars are intonated at the 12th fret The Epiphone is flat above the 12th fret while the Gibson is sharp above the 12th fret I do apologies if I've come across the wrong way at all, I currently have a terrible toothache and the pain killers aren't working very well Is ok, you are coming across just fine. I hate toof problems myself, so I hope it goes well and you are back to eatin soon. I'm pretty sure I can agree with you regarding intonation above the 12th, and I'll say why here if I can do it right: It's really hard to straight up fret at the 12th, every fret past that is even harder, so, yeah, you can kluge those notes. The fret placement on that side of the half node is much closer tolerance than on the other side of the half node. That's not an excuse I'm making either, it's just a fact that the average guitar factory doesn't bother much with. I'll also say that when you are wheedling around up there nobody can hear your studly intonation anyway. And if yer chordin up there you pretty much know you could be in trouble! So I'm not coming across right either, I'll qualify what I'm saying: Intonation, insofar as people hear, that is, the people I'm playing for, is no different between scale lengths or manufacturers. If it is in tune it is in tune, if it is intonated it is intonated, nobody's is better than everybody elses. Just my experience. Others may differ and I'd love to have a coffee or a beer and pass the tuner back and forth and argue about it! rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShowPony Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 I know its been a while but I thought I would post this to show how the approach to setting intonation is different on Gibsons Both the Epiphone and Gibson here have had intonation set at 12th fret which is fairly good for the Epiphone but is not how you set up a Gibson Notice the notes beyond the 12th fret On the Epiphone are flat On the Gibson are sharp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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