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Basket case 1946 J-45


Joe G.

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So, in my pssoession is a 1946 Gibson J-45. It was my uncle’s guitar and I vividly remember as a child hearing him play the snot out of it! Talk about a working guitar, I remember even in the late 60’s it was beat and worn but the sound is still in my head all these years later. He had a D’Armond pickup in the sound hole that wrecked the edge and had the pickup jack cut in the lower side, like a J-160E does.

 

Fast forward to the 80’s and it was refinished. The finish isn’t bad, but the repair work was atrocious. Lose braces, braces glued in the wrong spot, much larger replacement bridge, original small bridge plate that had bridge pins drilled in a different spot.

 

 

So I have about a dozen questions, but I’ll start with one . . . Gibson lists part numbers for bridges and saddles. The J-35 Vintage bridge is identical to what this J-45 originally had. Does Gibson sell parts? If not to the public, at least to authorized repair centers?

 

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/2017/J-35-Vintage-Collectors-Edition.aspx

 

Ok, 2 questions . . . Were 46’s mostly Sitka, or were they using Adirondack? FYI, this one has a one-piece back.

post-90909-012164000 1521732220_thumb.jpeg

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From that picture, the guitar looks pretty good. The wear on the top and around the soundhole is minimal. Jack holes in the rim are easily and almost invisibly repaired. The grain of the top looks more like adi than sitka. How about some more pictures (back, sides, headstock)?

 

How have you dated the guitar to 1946?

 

In 1946, the bridge would have been the same in plan view as what you see on the J-35, but it may have been a constant-thickness bridge rather than the 1930's tapered-style bridge, which is thicker at the low E string than at the high E string.

 

Gibson, as a rule, doesn't sell replacement parts directly to retail customers. You want to find an independent, experienced luthier with experience in vintage Gibsons to do any significant repair work for you. This is a fairly common topic of discussion here.

 

You may want to start your education by buying the full-scale J-45 structural plans from stewmac.com. These show the various J-45 bridges, bracing patterns, pickguards etc, and are an invaluable resource. Any good luthier can make any and all of these parts. I've had extensive repairs of the general type you are outlining done on a J-45 of similar vintage to yours

 

Welcome.

 

-J45 Nick

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Likely candidate for a 46:

 

Open back kluson (although they are gone, I clearly remember them as a kid, one of the machine screws {not the wood screws} was replaced and would fall out of the tuning peg/gear)

 

Gold script logo, no banner.

 

No serial number or marking of any kind on neck block.

 

Jack hole was already repaired when guitar was refinished.

 

Like I said in my original post, the refinish itself wasn't too bad, but there are lots of other problems.

 

I have a photo of the guitar after it was refinished but still with the original bridge.

 

While new to this page I am not new to guitars.

 

I'll throw up a few more pictures in a few hours.

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Likely candidate for a 46:

 

Open back kluson (although they are gone, I clearly remember them as a kid, one of the machine screws {not the wood screws} was replaced and would fall out of the tuning peg/gear)

 

Gold script logo, no banner.

 

No serial number or marking of any kind on neck block.

 

Jack hole was already repaired when guitar was refinished.

 

Like I said in my original post, the refinish itself wasn't too bad, but there are lots of other problems.

 

I have a photo of the guitar after it was refinished but still with the original bridge.

 

While new to this page I am not new to guitars.

 

I'll throw up a few more pictures in a few hours.

 

Here is an original (except tuners) 1946 LG-2 -- it has basically all the same features as the J-45 but is a bit smaller.

 

SRaYVmU.jpg

 

O79mz7I.jpg

 

That is the correct bridge. Gibson was using Sitka since early in WWII.

 

Here is the inside.

Mqf1RTQ.jpg

 

Yours looks to be restorable to me. Whether that is worth it $$ wise is a separate question.

 

We have a 53 J-45 that someone had actually poured glue inside and added a part of a ruler has a new brace. To fix it, Randy Wood had to remove the back to clean out all the glue and then bring the braces and bridgeplate back to normal. I our case, all the original parts were there. It was a bit expensive because the back had to come off.

 

Turned out to be a fine -- but a bit worn -- guitar. Here 'tis.

 

lCWQCe2.jpg

 

Good luck,

 

-Tom

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Then there’s this . . .

 

Larger bridge installed, not lined up with existing bridge pin holes, not filled either. Ball end of strings were actually pulling on bridge, not bridge plate or even the top. Top x-brace came unglued, top lifted and rolled resulting in grain runout cracks in front of bridge plate on the inside. Top is extremely bulged.

 

Fix will likely include removing bridge and bridge plate, patching spruce top, regluing x-brace, replacing bridge plate with slightly larger bridge plate to reinforce run-out cracks in spruce, cosmetic fixes to top.

 

Then there’s the frets, which the first 4-5 are barely there anymore, they are so worn and very low to begin with looking at the upper frets on the fingerboard extension.

post-90909-025194500 1521744951_thumb.jpeg

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Take Heart. Anything is fixable. My 1942 J-50 was in nasty condition when I stumbled across it. Open back seam plus four other open cracks in the back, one broken brace, missing tuners, bridge and pickguard and such. Spent a year with "Doc" in the Middle of Nowhere Missouri being out back together. He fixed it all up, made a scatchplate out of celluloid, a bridge out a piece of NOS Braz rosewood he kept in stock, and installed a set of original early 1940s Kluson bent tab tuners with the two circular manufacturer's stamps.

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How have you dated the guitar to 1946?

 

In 1946, the bridge would have been the same in plan view as what you see on the J-35, but it may have been a constant-thickness bridge rather than the 1930's tapered-style bridge, which is thicker at the low E string than at the high E string.

 

-J45 Nick

 

From what I gather, due to the lack of an FON, these guitars are dated 1946/47 because as we all know specs did not change at the stroke of midnight on January 1. Generally though a 1946 Gibson will have the script logo and 1 3/4" nut. These features disappeared during 1947. My 1946 LG-2 had the tapered bridge and double rivet, open gear bent tab tuners.

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Almost certainly a "nominal" 1946, despite the lack of FON. Script logo without banner, rectangular bridge, plus the one-piece back (probably a leftover from wartime). Safe to call it at 1946.

 

Since the guitar has already been refinished, its collectible value is seriously compromised, so you have to decide how much to put into repairs. If you got the guitar for nothing or not very much, its probably safe to put about $2000 into repairs. Any more than that is pretty much a labor of love.

 

That might cover a bridge and bridgeplate (might need to re-position bridge), neck set and re-fret (if required), hole patching and crack repair, and a moderate amount of bracing repair/re-glue/replace. I'd leave the finish as-is, since a refinish that is more original won't really help the value. What you have looks OK, even though it doesn't match what the guitar originally looked like.

 

If you end up with a structurally-sound, cosmetically acceptable, easily playable (and good-sounding) 1946 J-45 for $2500 or less, you've probably done reasonably well. It's always going to be a player grade guitar, not a collectible.

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From that picture, the guitar looks pretty good. The wear on the top and around the soundhole is minimal. Jack holes in the rim are easily and almost invisibly repaired. The grain of the top looks more like adi than sitka. How about some more pictures (back, sides, headstock)?

 

How have you dated the guitar to 1946?

 

In 1946, the bridge would have been the same in plan view as what you see on the J-35, but it may have been a constant-thickness bridge rather than the 1930's tapered-style bridge, which is thicker at the low E string than at the high E string.

 

Gibson, as a rule, doesn't sell replacement parts directly to retail customers. You want to find an independent, experienced luthier with experience in vintage Gibsons to do any significant repair work for you. This is a fairly common topic of discussion here.

 

You may want to start your education by buying the full-scale J-45 structural plans from stewmac.com. These show the various J-45 bridges, bracing patterns, pickguards etc, and are an invaluable resource. Any good luthier can make any and all of these parts. I've had extensive repairs of the general type you are outlining done on a J-45 of similar vintage to yours

 

Welcome.

 

-J45 Nick

 

 

I don't think Stew mac has the j45 plans anymore. I would like to find a set.

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This is very cool, even with the refin! How do you feel about the tone before you have done any work?

 

 

It had nickel electric guitar strings on it, maybe 10's, because of the bridge issues, and the sound was incredible! Big bass no fret buzz and decent action. I think a new bridge and bridge plate and re gluing the x brace will flatten the top enough that a neck reset won't be necessary.

 

The frets are a mystery.... They work but look as though they shouldn't!

 

I've been working on guitars for decades myself, nuts, saddles, drop fill CA and lacquer, air brushing lacquer, electronics, even crack repairs. It seems that some of the replies to me are treating me as if I'm new to guitars because this guitar is new to me. And I know my guitars.

 

It's not the work that scares me, it's all the tools, clamps and cauls I'll need. Stewmac has my credit info! They have the bridge and bridge plate removal set for a tick over $200.

 

A local luthier and great guy Willam Krause looked at it last fall, he gave me a couple names of people he thought would take a stab at it.

 

Dan Erlewine I think had a video on a similar issue that he fixed with a spruce patch and a slightly larger bridge plate. It may have been an L-00? He then filled and re cut the saddle slot after it was glued back on.

 

My biggest concern is removing the bridge plate. There are definitely grain run out issues (you can see it in the mismatched color of the top halves). I'm afraid that in removing the bridge plate it will take a serious chunk of the top.

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These might be the plans:

 

J-45 plans

 

Note that although the basic dimensions were taken from a 1957 guitar, these plans (or at least the version I have) also have details of older J-45's.

 

Aha, that's them! Or close enough. Thanks.

 

Thanks as well Drathbun, those are the electronic version.

Worrisome for someone like me.

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It had nickel electric guitar strings on it, maybe 10's, because of the bridge issues, and the sound was incredible! Big bass no fret buzz and decent action. I think a new bridge and bridge plate and re gluing the x brace will flatten the top enough that a neck reset won't be necessary.

 

The frets are a mystery.... They work but look as though they shouldn't!

 

I've been working on guitars for decades myself, nuts, saddles, drop fill CA and lacquer, air brushing lacquer, electronics, even crack repairs. It seems that some of the replies to me are treating me as if I'm new to guitars because this guitar is new to me. And I know my guitars.

 

It's not the work that scares me, it's all the tools, clamps and cauls I'll need. Stewmac has my credit info! They have the bridge and bridge plate removal set for a tick over $200.

 

A local luthier and great guy Willam Krause looked at it last fall, he gave me a couple names of people he thought would take a stab at it.

 

Dan Erlewine I think had a video on a similar issue that he fixed with a spruce patch and a slightly larger bridge plate. It may have been an L-00? He then filled and re cut the saddle slot after it was glued back on.

 

My biggest concern is removing the bridge plate. There are definitely grain run out issues (you can see it in the mismatched color of the top halves). I'm afraid that in removing the bridge plate it will take a serious chunk of the top.

 

 

Apologies for helping veer your thread. Nice j45 and makes a worthy project.

As for tools, as you probably well know, as much time as spent cobbling up tools (that will work) and jigs etc. as doing the work. Stewmac gets expensive quick. Art supply stores and woodworking stores sell palette knives that work fine for slipping under bridges and such. As for heat try freezer bags full of boiling water, takes a little persistence, a bit more time but not as expensive as heat blankets. If those were things you already knew, apologies again for "swerving in your lane".

Welcome here!

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........seems that some of the replies to me are treating me as if I'm new to guitars because this guitar is new to me. And I know my guitars.

We appreciate that but how are we to know your level of experience.........we’ll get to know each other in time. A refin kinda takes a lot of mojo out of an instrument that is very appealing to many. The structural issues can be addressed.......the finish is what it is. Bet the wood still sounds good though!

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Apologies for helping veer your thread. Nice j45 and makes a worthy project.

As for tools, as you probably well know, as much time as spent cobbling up tools (that will work) and jigs etc. as doing the work. Stewmac gets expensive quick. Art supply stores and woodworking stores sell palette knives that work fine for slipping under bridges and such. As for heat try freezer bags full of boiling water, takes a little persistence, a bit more time but not as expensive as heat blankets. If those were things you already knew, apologies again for "swerving in your lane".

Welcome here!

 

 

Thank you!!!

 

This post is much more where I'm at. I'm just a tiny push from going in with both feet and buying the stuff and looking for projects.

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We appreciate that but how are we to know your level of experience.........we’ll get to know each other in time. A refin kinda takes a lot of mojo out of an instrument that is very appealing to many. The structural issues can be addressed.......the finish is what it is. Bet the wood still sounds good though!

 

You could ask me? The last guitar I bought was a Martin, though, so I don't know how well we'll all get along, lol.

 

Tapping the back of the guitar looking for loose braces and I was kind of mesmerized for a little while at the drum like tone that it was putting out. It sounded like there were strings on it when there were none! Even my glorious rosewood Martin doesn't sound like this!

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I think my luthier did a great job making a new bridge.

This Banner I bought had the original bridge that had been shaved down, trying to avoid a neck reset.

I had him make a new one and reset the neck.

94A06C3B-F64C-41BC-B300-24A7D1F1AB65_zpsiuzand7n.jpg

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I think my luthier did a great job making a new bridge.

This Banner I bought had the original bridge that had been shaved down, trying to avoid a neck reset.

I had him make a new one and reset the neck.

94A06C3B-F64C-41BC-B300-24A7D1F1AB65_zpsiuzand7n.jpg

 

 

I think this deserves its own thread. I remember the acquisition of this beauty but not the follow-up. What was the extent of the work? How does it sound? How does it compare to your '53(?) J50? Etc.

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Almost certainly a "nominal" 1946, despite the lack of FON. Script logo without banner, rectangular bridge, plus the one-piece back (probably a leftover from wartime). Safe to call it at 1946.

 

 

I agree. Just going by the "dating etiquette" used at UMGF. Brings to mind Dylan's script logo 1947 J-50. I used to know a guy who always said his J-45 was a '47. It had the script logo and rectangular bridge. I do not recall the nut width but this guitar had those waffle peen rivet tuners which I have always associated with Gibsons built in 1947.

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