[rct]

Sabredog, on 27 March 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

70s 80s classic rock,
Santana Arrowsmith Pink Floyd Led Zeppelin guns and roses cream Hendrix Van Halen, ozzy .......... on and on and on. any song that sounds good, black keys. white stripes.

Ok so same stuff I do.

I've been using Les Pauls since 1975 I got my first second hand third rate Custom. I grew up playing that music and still do. I've used Les Pauls through each decade and iteration of Les Paul. My Classic is 18 this year, it's pretty well traveled but in great shape.

If you, or anyone you know, is having trouble with pull offs and use of the high E because of binding over frets or the standard LP neck width, you or someone you know needs to practice. No guitar player should, in my experience, have issue with binding over frets or the standard string spacing of the pre-Pontiac Wide Track neck width.

All of our favorite records were done with binding over frets, standard LP width/string spacing necks. Them guys had no problems, I learned a lot from them guys and I had and have no problems, you shouldn't either.

I'm not hollering at you or scolding. I'm telling you that the frets over binding was cost cutting and the wide neck thing was a solution to a problem that didn't exist for guitar players.

Rock on. Get some GFR in that setlist bro.

rct

[Pin]

Sabredog, on 27 March 2018 - 10:24 PM, said:

that's a reasonable explanation. feel as you said is subjective, but certainly important, so that design probably does have a very nice feel to your style,


but engineers learn how to break that feel down into measurable quantitative elements that can show improved performance, measurable performance increase, that 95 out of 100 players can achieve the intended target note, or accuracy of fretting, or accuracy the desired result, or 10 vibrato movements obtained in one second can consistently be obtained and errors are reduced. Where as the other model has increased error rate, when the string is not hit perfectly an actual error occurs like accidentally fretted on plastic surface.

Re your last main paragraph and the link:

http://www.gibson.co...er-Binding.aspx

Taking the paragraph quoted above and the content of the link my thoughts are thus:

Self-justificatory Sales Bollocks. Pure and Simple.

But as Merciful said above - a lot of us just don't believe a word of it and prefer the original version of Gibson binding.

But as I said, you like it done Yamaha style and that's fine by me. It isn't as if Gibson never did it your way. I think the Les Paul Recording is not nibbed and never has been.

[Black Dog]

The guitar was invented a long time ago. Every single iteration of it has had problems of one sort or another. The main problem they all share being that they don't play themselves. Someone has to learn how to do that. Amazingly, people through the ages have been able to do that in spite of one design problem after another.

An engineer (I think you may have mentioned that you're an engineer) may start to look at their guitar and identify all the things they think are wrong with it that are impairing their playing.

People that are actually good players (i'm not saying I'm one of them) seem to be able to pick up most any instrument and make it sound good, flaws and all.

[pippy]

Black Dog, on 28 March 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

...people through the ages have been able to (play their guitar) in spite of one design problem after another.
An engineer...may start to look at their guitar and identify all the things they think are wrong with it that are impairing their playing...
People that are actually good players seem to be able to pick up most any instrument and make it sound good, flaws and all...

There is a saying - well-known in engineering circles or so I'm led to believe - which suggests a link between 'Tools' and 'Bad Workmen'.

Pip.

[Black Dog]

pippy, on 28 March 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

There is a saying - well-known in engineering circles or so I'm led to believe - which suggests a link between 'Tools' and 'Bad Workmen'.

Pip.

The one I am familiar with goes something like - it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

The first time I ran a string off a fret, I didn't think to blame the guitar. I thought I needed to practice more.

[Megafrog]

Black Dog, on 28 March 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

The one I am familiar with goes something like - it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

The first time I ran a string off a fret, I didn't think to blame the guitar. I thought I needed to practice more.

You are spot on!

[pippy]

Black Dog, on 28 March 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

...The first time I ran a string off a fret, I didn't think to blame the guitar. I thought I needed to practice more...

We Have a WINNER ! ! ! ! !



Pip.

[SteveFord]

The problem, as I see it, is the string spacing on the nut.
I've had an SG where they put the high E string a bit too close to the edge (for you Yes fans).
Instead of taking a look at the nut they went with the Aircraft Carrier neck profile.

Nibs should not present a problem with playing unless they're FUBARed.
In all these years I've never had a problem with them, I always thought they were a classy touch.

[Sabredog]

SteveFord, on 28 March 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

The problem, as I see it, is the string spacing on the nut.
I've had an SG where they put the high E string a bit too close to the edge (for you Yes fans).
Instead of taking a look at the nut they went with the Aircraft Carrier neck profile.

Nibs should not present a problem with playing unless they're FUBARed.
In all these years I've never had a problem with them, I always thought they were a classy touch.

I can actually agree with that, all you have to do is leave enough space maybe 1 mm extra metal, I actually have seen some less Paul's with binding nibs that actually have enough fret before the binding, so I probably got one that was very low on the quality control scale.
frets 5 through 13, the high E string came off the Fret 60% of the time.

I've owned about 50 different guitars from all 20 different guitar manufacturers not a single one of these excellent machines, did I have the high E fall off the board,
So I know i do not need practice, I can blame it on the guitar. all of these other well thought out excellent highly engineered guitars would not consider using Nibs. no manufacturer in the world in the modern day would consider introducing a guitar with 20% of a fret being plastic and 80% being metal.
I never experienced the problem until I played the Les Paul with nibs.
I'm not saying that type of design especially at the time period, is not a good guitar, clearly it's a very good guitar with some minor minor flaws, as you say because many people used it to make good music , but just because something can be made to work does not mean that it can't be improved. It has a lot of parallels to golf clubs. the equipment improves a players playing. no golfer of the 60s could hit a 300 yard drive now 90% of the players can hit the 300 yard drive. it's all related to improved equipment.


I'm just saying the HP version is an improved version to an already very good guitar, not disrespecting the 60s. but engineers do learn how to make things better.

if you are regularly hitting 280 yard drive with a driver today, and someone gives you a persimmons wood and it's not much bigger than a golf ball itself, and you only hit it 180 yards, and your friends tell you you just need more practice, you actually say no I just need modern equipment.

absolutely from an engineering perspective there are multiple approaches to correct this design flaw or quality control flaw of a string too close to a rounded fret edge, combining the approaches would probably be best.
1. optimize the string spacing give the outer edge strings a little more freedom to operate. i.e different string spacing in the nut cut,
2 extend the fret somehow.
3. extend the fret by extending or widening the fret board relative to the nut cut string spacing.

[Pin]

It is probably better to simply agree to disagree Sabredog.

You are not going to change my mind about nibs in a million years and vice versa I fancy.

As for other manufacturers I really wish my Yamaha SG did have nibs but it hasn't. I can happily live with that because it is a superb guitar anyway.

[SteveFord]

You shouldn't have to but a lot of people simply replace the nut with better string spacing.
I currently have 4 Gibson electrics and they all came with the proper spacing but the first time I played that SG it was a WTF moment.
I think it was a 2007 SG Classic which went back to eBay where it came from.

[merciful-evans]

About the E falling off the neck.

I've always had a problem with this. Should I practice more? Maybe, but I've been playing for 48 years. I play every day and I put in at least an hour; often much more.

Whether I am just a poor player or not, I have never stopped or thought about giving up. The best improvement on this problem was getting rid of the Strat (standard 70s USA model). I used it exclusively for nearly 25 years because I loved the sound. It handled like a pig.


All my other guitars are better at handling the problem.
Rarely happens anymore, but it does once in a while. Yes, live too


Partly for this reason, I would never use a guitar that was too rounded at the edges. Nor one with nibs.

[Pin]

merciful-evans, on 30 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

About the E falling off the neck.

I've always had a problem with this.
Partly for this reason, I would never use a guitar that was too rounded at the edges. Nor one with nibs.

Maybe (partly) explains why I like nibs so much. I can honestly say that this just doesn't ever happen with me (no matter what guitar it is).

[merciful-evans]

Pin, on 30 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Maybe (partly) explains why I like nibs so much. I can honestly say that this just doesn't ever happen with me (no matter what guitar it is).

Perfectly reasonable Pin. You must play properly

Its nice to have a choice. If electric guitars were made during Stalin's regime....

[Black Dog]

I wasn't going to say anything else here but...

I don't really care much about anyone's playing style or skill at all. I mean, I do hope everyone plays well of course, but everyone's different and we all enjoy (hopefully) playing what and how we play it.

If this thread had been about how much a person was enjoying their guitar, and even why, that would be great. I'd have been happy to congratulate them and even compliment them on a fine looking Les Paul. But if's when you start telling everyone else they should share you're preference or be a stale, old fashioned poser is when it goes bad.

Like I said, a preference for a wider fret board is completely valid and I don't knock anyone who plays an HP. I'm sure they're nice.

To each their own. Enjoy.

[Pin]

Black Dog, on 30 March 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

I wasn't going to say anything else here but...

I don't really care much about anyone's playing style or skill at all. I mean, I do hope everyone plays well of course, but everyone's different and we all enjoy (hopefully) playing what and how we play it.

If this thread had been about how much a person was enjoying their guitar, and even why, that would be great. I'd have been happy to congratulate them and even compliment them on a fine looking Les Paul. But if's when you start telling everyone else they should share you're preference or be a stale, old fashioned poser is when it goes bad.

Like I said, a preference for a wider fret board is completely valid and I don't knock anyone who plays an HP. I'm sure they're nice.

To each their own. Enjoy.

I hope your comment isn't aimed at me because if it is then I heartily resent it.

I make no comment whatsoever about anyone's playing skill. Truth be told I reckon just about every poster on this website plays better than me.

Who exactly is telling anyone that they "should share" this opinion or that opinion. I don't think I have ever done that in any post I have ever posted on this site and certainly not within this thread.

I don't getting where you are coming from mate. Don't get it at all.

[Big Bill]

Pin, on 30 March 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

I hope your comment isn't aimed at me because if it is then I heartily resent it.

I make no comment whatsoever about anyone's playing skill. Truth be told I reckon just about every poster on this website plays better than me.

Who exactly is telling anyone that they "should share" this opinion or that opinion. I don't think I have ever done that in any post I have ever posted on this site and certainly not within this thread.

I don't getting where you are coming from mate. Don't get it at all.

I really don't think that was aimed at anyone in particular.

[pippy]

Agreed.

I think it was more directed at the position taken by anyone who says "My Way Good; Your Way Not Good. You Old Fart."

I do have, somewhere, a snap of one of my guitars which shows how fret-nibs were crafted in a different manner to how they are done (apparently) nowadays but it's not on the hard-drive and, of course, Photobucket has screwed-up much of my unimportant-Gibson-only reference stock so it will have to be added as-and-when I can find the original...

Pip.

[Black Dog]

Pin, on 30 March 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

I hope your comment isn't aimed at me because if it is then I heartily resent it.

Not at all. Sorry if it came off badly. In fact, I agree with every single poster in this thread save one.

[loversmoon]

I personally love my SG hp. I understand the taking the road of the traditionalist but I myself truly enjoy playing this guitar. I was not a fan of the tuners so I did change those to a set of Kluson Deluxe. I dont mind the pcb tone pot set up. To each their own I suppose.