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Recording space input


uncle fester

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Hi All,

 

Sal's questions on mics got me thinking. Now I might be asking how do I get lipstick on a pig here (worrying about my recording space before I learn that second power chord...) but I've got a couple options in recording space.

 

1) 12 ft x 12 ft room (9 ft ceilings), carpeted. Some book shelves on a couple walls, and old plaster walls around.

 

2) 10 x 12 ft section of a much larger basement (maybe 24 by 40 ft openish space, but w/ chimneys, and some half walls)the floor is cement, but I have carpet down where I play. (6 ft ceilings)

 

I wasn't sure if the larger basement area (but lower ceiling) would be better or the smaller area, but full carpet and higher ceiling.

 

Any input is appreciated. I promise to only post to the 'post your stuff here' thread... unless it's really good ;)

 

Rgds - billroy

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Ah no one is going to know the answer to that one bill

You’ll just have to try both and see which one you like the sound of

 

I doubt , unless you’re releasing an album , that the difference in those two rooms are going to effect your recording in a fanatic way from the other

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If forced to make an ”unheard” choice between the two, I would go for the smaller, carpeted space. I think the recording variables would be easier to control there. I record in such a room and temporarily hang blankets in various places. Makes a huge difference.

 

Lars

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It has a lot to do with the kind of microphone(s) you are using. Directional microphones can be pointed right at your guitar and mouth without picking up a lot of ambient room noise. But an omni-directional microphone will pickup the sound of the room itself. Most likely, you will be better off with a rather "dead" room in that case. Also consider what other kind of machinery is in the room - is there a furnace, pump or air conditioner that kicks on from time to time in the basement? Can you hear water running in the pipes or toilets flushing upstairs?

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I prefer dead sound carpeted...but some music engineer types would be horrified.

 

Don’t forget you need a roomful of guitars and guitar cases, amps, bags, electronics, mic stands, computer, mixer, speakers, books and music books, tool box, camera gear, leads, mics, printer, preamps, dvds, cds and that box or 2 of ‘general stuff’ to make the room feel right! The Cave!

 

 

BluesKing777.

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Thanks all - good food for thought, and I'll definitely do some trial and error.

 

Putting the different threads together though, here's my take-away,

being able to play is different than being able to record

anyone should be able to get a basic, decent recording of themselves

it will be day and night though compared to what someone who does this for a living puts out

 

Someone (I believe RCT?) said - 'if you want a good recording, you need someone who does this recording stuff more than the playing stuff.' That saying made a lot of sense to me. I'm more of a player than a recorder.

 

So I'm fortunate I've got some (entry level) recording equipment (presonus audiobox, Shure SM 57/58 Mics...) and a couple spaces I can take over. I'll do trial and error in space, but just enjoy what I'm doing and generally try to evolve my skills and if I get a real hankerin' to have a song produced well, drop a little cash and get some studio time.

 

 

(BK - I think your right though, the more your space resembles a man cave - the better the recording will be... I'm going to use that on my wife (once she gets up off the floor from seeing the bill for my J45 ; )

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I'm a guy with a Cave..

 

There was a room built in the basement, one the side of the house where the foundation is not under ground. (There's a full window in there)

 

it used to be a puttery / workshop room the previous owner set up. - he liked to tinker. Tongue and Groove Wood walls, I put carpet on the floor (cement under it) it's small, but room for 2 easy,, 3 in a jam, 4 if you HAVE to.

 

My pro-tools rig is setup there, got a 88key yamaha digi piano in there, 2 tube amps. and a small PA, studio monitors..

 

Celler gets a bit chilly (mid 50s in the dead of winter) but the room is small where it heats up very fast with a few small room size space heaters.

 

it's perfect actually..

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Dining room around 18’ x 12’ standard height ceiling

Wooden floor. No carpet or rugs

Plaster walls , window

 

Couple sofas couple bookcases piano

 

Rode m3 mic on guitar

Rode nt1 on my face

 

Both approx 12’’ away

 

Into a Safire 6 , laptop with reaper software (free)

 

Still learning to mix the track

But give you a rough idea of what you’ll get out with idiots competency like mine

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I think that sounds really good Stu. levels seem right to me, . I like what you can capture with that setup. Even with just a decent set of cans, the quality of the recording is pretty darned good. (Great song too)

 

if a comparison from a Pro Tools HD recording would help, This was back in December (a bit Christmasy)...

 

SJ200 went direct in to the Presonous, a Boss EQ and a Compressor inline, just a bit of both dialed in.

 

Vocal mic is a performance grade Sennheiser, nothing special or close to top end. ($120 dollar mic...) hope to get a better set of mics soon but I can make the ones I have work. (some SM58s lying around the cave too) Reverb is a PT plugin.

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The two extremes in a recording environment are a track-by-track recording environment where multiple tracks are eventually combined in an ultimate produced mix down and, at the other extreme, is the true acoustic environment where the goal is to capture the acoustic sound in the room. The first is best achieved in an anechoic chamber or, baring that, a room with as much sound damping as possible. In the second, which is the only thing that interests us, the room always interacts with the music, often in dramatic ways. Everything matters -- room dimensions, wall-ceiling-floor surfaces, what instruments are being played, how many instruments are being played, (very important) how loud is the music, .... Every room is an acoustic filter -- kind of a fixed effects environment. It can enhance the sound but it can also limit it -- the combinations are endless.

 

Because the wavelength of the low frequency are often comparable to room dimensions, the room interactions are often more dramatic with a bass. In an acoustically dry room, there are few sound reflections from the surfaces -- a acoustically wet room has many (think of singing in a shower or a well designed church). Wet rooms can be wonderful for relatively quite music with few instruments -- but room interactions can muddy up the sound when things get complex and loud.

 

When my wife sets out to play bass in a session, the first thing she does is to play a bunch of bass notes and listen to the room. Some notes will be enhanced -- sometimes way too much -- and some will not. Then in the session, she tries to adapt -- emphasizing and deemphasizing particular notes.

 

Listen to yourself in the room -- try to get the sound you are looking for from the instruments and the voices. We actually use different instruments in different rooms -- instruments and playing styles which seem puny in a dry room may be overpowering in a wet room.

 

Life an adventure -- listen, learn, and enjoy.

 

Best,

-Tom

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Alright - so thoughts on the last few posts

 

BBG and Kidblast recordings -

both are of a quality I'd be proud of

i feel BBG's mix has the voice a little more central, and KB's the voice and guitar are more balanced... neither better - but different (disclaimer - I'm no expert)

i really wish someone would struggle a bit with something, i guess that's what i'm here for - to add balance ;)

 

*Tom and the two types of recording - I would fit into the second boat, want to capture the acoustic sound in the environment (thinking I like that, but also really don't have the abilities for the perfected track by track mixdown yet). I think my next step though is to truly evaluate how the environments I have sound.

 

Just finished up my first call of the day - but got 3 hours to the next, time to play!

 

Rgds -billroy

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PS - Kidblast put up a Christmas song, but that's the wrong holiday - anyone got something for Easter. Just watched the movie 'Hop' with the kids last night (alright - it was just me), but 'I love candy' was a huge song. I think it wouldn't be the most straight forward song to create an acoustic rendition - but someone on here has to be up for it?

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Alright - so thoughts on the last few posts

 

BBG and Kidblast recordings -

both are of a quality I'd be proud of

i feel BBG's mix has the voice a little more central, and KB's the voice and guitar are more balanced... neither better - but different (disclaimer - I'm no expert)

i really wish someone would struggle a bit with something, i guess that's what i'm here for - to add balance ;)

 

*Tom and the two types of recording - I would fit into the second boat, want to capture the acoustic sound in the environment (thinking I like that, but also really don't have the abilities for the perfected track by track mixdown yet). I think my next step though is to truly evaluate how the environments I have sound.

 

Just finished up my first call of the day - but got 3 hours to the next, time to play!

 

Rgds -billroy

 

it is two different ways to accomplish the same objective... Just capture a performance. Stu's, for the method he used, mic'ing everything, verses direct (Guitar for me) was pretty successful in capture the guitars sound, I don't know how much playing around was needed, but his recordings all sound really good to my ears. In the context for what the goal was, definitely a winner.

 

 

Which is quite different than laying down foundation tracks, where the intent is to start to add layers and over dubs other instruments.. etc..

This is where pro tools I THINK gives a bit of an edge. Tracks available are just about limitless, editing capabilities are also just about endless. There's a lot to know with PT, and I certainly have a lot to learn.

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Tom pretty well sums this up. I worked for a year as a sound engineer based out of NYC, mixing live concerts in venues ranging from rooms as small as the back room at Gerde's Folk City (maybe 50 people) to as large as college gymnasiums. The group I worked with primarily practiced outside the city in a smallish space (maybe 20'x20') with a lot of hard surfaces such as glass windows and wood floors. This was good for approximating the type of live room environment that you usually had to work in, where you would get echoes, competing reflections, and odd noises that could be a distraction. Without in-ear monitors, it is often hard in live performance for one member of the band to hear another who is only standing a few feet away, particularly if it is a noisy environment, so a lot of practice in different situations can be a real help for performers.(Think of EuroAussie doing gigs in large bars in Prague--one of the most difficult acoustic environments of all.)

 

My portable console was on wheels, so I could move it to various locations in the room to get myself into different sound environments.

 

At concerts, we would do our sound checks in the room, but of course that is without people, so it is a best an approximation of the final concert environment. I generally put my console in the middle of the audience, figuring that's where I wanted the sound of the concert to be at its absolute best.

 

As Tom says, a "live" room can be good, or bad, and performers (and sound techs) have to adapt to what they have.

 

The studio is a different animal completely. You often want the space as "dead" as possible, with acoustic isolation to minimize bleed from track to track. This can be disconcerting at first for performers who are used to standing next to each other and feeding off each other during performance.

 

Your recording equipment will be a determinant of whether you want your playing/recording room "live" or "dead", most specifically the characteristics of your mic(s).

 

If you are just playing for yourself, and not recording, a fairly live room with hard floors and walls (preferably wood floors), is a good place to start. (There's a reason concert stages still have wood floors.) You can add carpets and wall hangings or movable acoustic partitions (available through office supply stores or sound equipment stores) to damp the room for recording or to make it less reflective even if you are just playing for yourself. You don't need to be fancy or spend a lot of money, just be creative. If it's a soft surface, it will generally absorb sound. If it's a hard surface, it will reflect it.

 

The best investment you can make is a really good microphone. Look at the Sennheisers used in the NPR Tiny Desk concerts, but those condenser shotgun mics go for about $1200, so that's overkill for most people.

 

When I was in college, we used to play in the fire stairwells of dormitories, for their natural reverb. That's when I first became attracted to messing with performance sound.

 

I have carpet on the floor of my office/playing space. That's primarily to protect my guitars in case I knock one over. If you're as clumsy as I am, that's something to consider.

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Is an investment in a good recording mic the same as a good performing mic? Or are they two different tools for two different jobs?

 

Rgds - billroy

 

The best of each type is not particularly well-suited for the other job. But there are microphones that are capable of doing both jobs to a perfectly satisfactory degree, provided you aren't doing professional studio recording. There are folks here who are active in both live performance and pretty decent home recording setups who can give you the best guidance in what equipment they use.

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One gigantic can of worms!

 

 

But to start at the start, I would buy a little 4 channel mixer and a Shure SM57 or 58. You could travel the world with that.......

 

 

 

Yep.

 

One of each.

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