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65 J-50 Luthier Problem


holeshot1982

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We'll see, got a reply saying they were going to do a few "tests" and if all looked good, would call me. I'm real curious what these tests are. As they mentioned the first time they had it "String tension test" they called it.... I'm trying to have faith all be OK

 

I believe that technically, it is known as the “bonk” test.

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Ok, so I finally heard back, here’s the direct quote....

 

“The J-50 is playing well. Everything is good on it as we were able to use a Bridge Doctor to level out the the top as we proposed and it is back to normal. There are / were no defects in the top, just belly bow tension from age and the higher gauge strings after all of these years. Nothing unusual to have happen to older guitars. Also, we changed the slope of the saddle and went back to 12s and the buzz we were getting is gone. You should be good to go for years to come with it now.”

 

Once again something done that I wasn’t informed of! Now I’ve never heard of a bridge doctor so I’m wondering what this does exactly to the guitar? Good/Bad? Obviously it hurts the value which is honestly the least of my concerns. More worried about the playability and structure. Any thoughts?

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They are probably right to go back to 12's rather than 13's. That was a lot of additional tension to put on a 50-year-old guitar that was meant for 12's.

 

At the same time, the need for a Bridge Doctor indicates a fundamental problem that will probably need to be addressed in the long run if you want the guitar to play and sound its best.

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Get the braces fixed and most of those issues will go away... and a new bridge saddle will need to be made. hopefully not a bridge from the pressure of the saddle pulling foward.. that could crack the bridge.

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I would go get your guitar back. If the top was bellying or sinking to the point that it needs that contraption they should have known the first 10 minutes they had the guitar. Look at how a bridge doctor works, there is no way it can make a guitar sound better. As others have said it's to address structural issues. This is the reason I started working on my own guitars😀.

Best of luck but this sounds like its gone off the rails.

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I would go get your guitar back. If the top was bellying or sinking to the point that it needs that contraption they should have known the first 10 minutes they had the guitar. Look at how a bridge doctor works, there is no way it can make a guitar sound better. As others have said it's to address structural issues. This is the reason I started working on my own guitars😀.

Best of luck but this sounds like its gone off the rails.

 

Took a half day from work today to go and get it. Unless they try to charge for their mistake I’m going to try and maintain my composer. Plan now is just pack it up and ship it to Nashville. Should have done that in the first place.

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OK, so update.... They installed the Bridge Doctor, guitar still sounds amazing and plays great. I see only slight difference in the top between the bridge and sound hole. According to them that's just the way to goes over time with the tops. It just amazes me that it did not go that way until they got their hands on it...

 

However on the other hand, no major work has ever been done to this guitar and as I've learned over the past few days one change can easily wreak havoc on other areas. They originally replaced the adju saddle with a fixed bone saddle at my request, keeping the original bridge.... I stand behind what I said about they should have called me before making any drastic changes. However I can't go back in time and neither can they. He said the braces all checked out fine and there were no issues with that or the top in general.

 

I'm desperately trying to give them the benefit of the doubt but I can't shake the feeling this can be fixed. Do I sound crazy in thinking that way? I'm not a vintage guy, especially a vintage acoustic guy so I don't know about these sorts of problems. Do you guys think it would be worth it to send the guitar to Glazer's in Nashville for an evaluation?

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I wonder if it is possible that by putting a fixed saddle into the adjustable bridge slot, that it, along with the 13s caused string tension directly on the top that the aged guitar wasn’t used to?

 

The reason I say this, is I have a Gibson 2006 1964 Custom Shop J-45 with an adjustable bridge (from Fullers who had quite good reissues/replicas.). And, with my adjustable bridge, the adjustable bridge mechanism sits on two screws which keeps the saddle insert always slightly raised from ever actually touching the top of the guitar. If that mechanism is removed, any saddle insert would then potentially sit on the top of the guitar (in the bridge.

 

If your adjustable bridge mechanism is the same, by removing it and sticking a saddle into its slot and then filling the slot in on the sides, sounds like it would result in the saddle sitting on the guitar’s top. Whereas a replacement fixed bridge for the adj bridge and adj mechanism would result in the new fixed bridge sitting on the top and then the bridge sitting in the bridge.

 

Removing just the adj mechanism, at least on mine, would cause a saddle to sit directly on the guitar’s top. That would add significant added pressure to the top and frankly, the guitar’s top isn’t made for that. As the adjustable mechanism only has its screws (with metal nuts)on both ends of the saddle and nuts underneath experiencing the string pressure.

 

Considering the guitar is aged and not used to direct pressure from a saddle on its top when it was used to an adj bridge keeping the saddle raised....coupled with the 13s, could have a negative effect on the top, necessitating the bridge doctor mechanism to have to shore up the added pressure.

 

My suggestion is either keep it as is since it’s now playing fine or take it to an authorized Gibson repair person or send it to somewhere like Gruhn Guitars in Nashville to restore the adjustable bridge to function or fully replace the entire adj bridge with an appropriate fixed bridge. The makeshift job on the adjustable bridge may have contributed to the issue. Not sure, but it seems like you have tried to turn an adj bridge into a fixed bridge but only halfway and potentially that could have caused stress on the top it was not accustomed to.

 

A new bridge and a Gruhn repair may be expensive, so you might want to play it awhile now that it’s fixed as is and playable. But, for a long term investment in restoring the guitar it might be worth the large cost at some point to you. Just my thoughts.

 

Hope this helps. It’s just my speculation.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

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The reason I say this, is I have a Gibson 2006 1964 Custom Shop J-45 with an adjustable bridge (from Fullers who had quite good reissues/replicas.). And, with my adjustable bridge, the adjustable bridge mechanism sits on two screws which keeps the saddle insert always slightly raised from ever actually touching the top of the guitar.

 

I have a 1965 J-50 ADJ and that's exactly the way it is. The adjustment screws have a ridge on them to support the saddle. When I got this guitar everything seemed to be fine, but I was going to take it to a luthier anyway to tweak this and that. But just gave it time and learned to appreciate it as it was. So I haven't changed a thing, except the tuners that were just too stiff, even after spending awhile working on them.

 

I saw a video once of those custom shop Gibson J-45 replicas (although IIRC it was supposed to be a 1967) and it looked very cool. What interested me was the fact that it had a skinny neck, which is something I especially like about my 1965 J-50.

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I have a 1965 J-50 ADJ and that's exactly the way it is. The adjustment screws have a ridge on them to support the saddle.

Yes, Gibson's adjustable saddle system ends up creating something akin to a mini archtop-bridge scenario. String energy is transmitted from the saddle to the two metal posts before working it's way to the body of the guitar.

 

The effect seems to be even more dramatic when the system is coupled with the plastic bridge setup, rather than a rosewood bridge. With the plastic bridge, you now have a hollow piece of plastic that serves virtually no function other than being a holder for the string pins. You could essentially remove all of the plastic, leave the saddle & posts, and be just fine - other than having a strip of material attached to the top for where the pins would rest.

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I wonder if it is possible that by putting a fixed saddle into the adjustable bridge slot, that it, along with the 13s caused string tension directly on the top that the aged guitar wasn’t used to?

 

TQM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

 

I'm not sure about that Jeff, if I understand your reasoning. With the adjustable saddle, all of the string compression on the saddle is transmitted to the top at two points, through the adjusting screws to the top at the barrel nuts, which are actually barrel bolts drilled and tapped on the inside for the adjusting screws.

 

If you remove the adjustable saddle and the adjusting screws (which means leaving the barrel nuts in place unless you remove the entire bridge), fill the old slot completely with a shaped piece of wood, and then cut the slot the for a new saddle in a conventional way in the piece of wood you have inserted, the saddle load is pretty much distributed in the same way it was originally (if the wood insert is just dropped in place and is resting on the barrel nuts). If the wood insert is glued in place (glued at its sides to the bridge, so that the bridge functions as a single unit like a conventional bridge), the saddle load is transmitted to the top via the entire bottom surface of the bridge.

 

Certainly the compression load of the saddle on the top is distributed differently with a conventional bridge vs a bridge with adjustable saddle. That's one reason they used that big, thick plywood bridgeplate in most of the guitars with the adj saddle, I believe.

 

The culprit to my mind, given that all the braces are apparently intact and attached, is the heavy 13-gauge strings. I would never put those on a 50 year old J-45. By 1965, the Gibson necks were both narrow in width and thin in section, so they aren't very stiff to start with. This doesn't help matters any.

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Just my speculation. You raise a good point about how the removed adj bridge is filled in on the bottom makes a good point.

 

And, agree, of course,the 13s are suspect in this situation.

 

Guess only the original poster knows.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jef

 

 

I agree with both of you about the 13’s. Also that they put a taller saddle on the 2nd time. Interesting that you suggest an authorized Gibson repair agent as they are the only one in the area. Which is another reason I trusted them. Now I’m not sure of how they fitted the new saddle in. Only that it’s the original bridge and I can tell there is filler on the side where the adjustable screws once where.

 

I know me and it will be in the back of my mind until I have it looked at by someone I trust. So I’m going to call Glaser in Nashville Monday morning. I really don’t want to ship this guitar but it is what it is. I started this mess in the first place. If it costs, it costs. I’ll be sure to reference what you guys have suggested and report back once I know something.

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So.... Glaser Instruments no longer does turn around shipping which means I can ship to them but need to drive to Nashville to pick it up, about 7 hours one way for me. So they were kind enough to look at some pictures I was able to take and here's the reply...

 

"Hey Chris,

 

Thanks for sending the photos. There are a few things going on.

 

So the saddle is extremely tall, when they replaced the bridge, I'm guessing they didn't compensate for how tall the adjustable saddle is. So they put a normal height bridge on there and put a tall saddle in which is way wrong. 1.) The saddle could break or the front edge of the bridge will crack and 2.) All of that tension leaning forward on the bridge is exaggerating the top curling.

 

The next issue is that when they installed the bridge doctor, they just tightened it too far and it looks like it separated the braces from the top. It looks like you x brace isn't doing anything, which is, again, making the top curl even easier.

 

 

This is what I can tell from the photos. You have several things working against the issue. So we need to glue the top braces, replace the bridge with a taller one (or reset the neck, but I'm guessing that doesn't need to happen), and once we do those 2 things, the top will much better and you won't need a bridge doctor.

 

In order to get all of this fixed it will end up being about $600+/-.

 

I hope this helps and thank for sending all of the pics."

 

So now, I'm in a spot where I kinda have to do something....

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If it were mine, I'd bite the bullet & get it fixed correctly.

 

As soon as you mentioned they'd put in a bridge-doctor, I was concerned. It's just a shortcut, and not a proper fix. Honestly, imho, they should have consulted with you regarding all your options before proceeding.

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So.... Glaser Instruments no longer does turn around shipping which means I can ship to them but need to drive to Nashville to pick it up, about 7 hours one way for me. So they were kind enough to look at some pictures I was able to take and here's the reply...

 

So now, I'm in a spot where I kinda have to do something....

 

If the guys at Glaser are correct, the work that has been done previously has basically been a disaster. If the guys in Nashville can do that work for $600, and if it fixes the problem, it's worth doing. I don't know them, but the reviews look good.

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If it were mine, I'd bite the bullet & get it fixed correctly.

 

As soon as you mentioned they'd put in a bridge-doctor, I was concerned. It's just a shortcut, and not a proper fix. Honestly, imho, they should have consulted with you regarding all your options before proceeding.

 

Yep, that was my biggest issue, why wouldn't call me?? Doesn't make any sense but no sense in dwelling on it. I take blame for this... With this I should have just contacted Glaser to begin with.

 

 

i suggest contacting Gruhn Guitars in Nashville and obtaining their opinion/estimate.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

I've contacted Gruhn in the past and they were the first to ever suggest Glaser because they only service guitars that were bought from them. After digging into Glaser and finding out who his clientele is I took a chance... They repaired a strat neck for me 2 yrs ago and I've never seen such work on one. I'm not willing to take anymore chances on this. After all is said and done I'll end up having 1,000 in it.... Way to much but it is what it is.

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It was your Dad's guitar, and it's a vintage classic.

 

It's a one-of-a-kind in that respect, and will be worth every penny of a quality repair.

 

 

This is the bottom line, and it's why you're doing it. Not many of us get opportunities like this in life, so take advantage of it.

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