'47 J45 - A tale and Some Questions

[jheath]

Hey Gibsonites. I've been lurking around this forum and been an infrequent poster for many, many years. I have cycled through a number of modern Gibson acoustics (WM45, J35, J45 TV, 2 Hummingbirds) but have always fallen out of love or fallen in love with something else more. The only one that I really miss is the WM45. It was a great guitar, cheap and the best sounding one of the bunch. I've always ogled over vintage Gibsons but never really thought too seriously about them.

 

My favourite guitar store regularly gets interesting and unique vintage guitars including a large amount of Gibsons. I keep an eye on their website and get regular instagram updates, The owner is a Gibson guy and is fairly well known in the vintage Gibson acoustic world. Well, a guitar popped up in my feed last week and curiosity got the better of me. I had to go in and check it out. I had no plans to buy ANOTHER guitar. I am in the process of finalizing a purchase of a CF guitar for summer campfire playing and travelling. I just got a Halcyon that I waited a long time for.

 

The good - a 1947 (or maybe a 48) J45 with a crack free body, all braces tight, nice fat neck that I could afford, that plays well and that sounds glorious. It has THE sound I've always wanted from a Gibson

 

The bad - refinished, hideous Martin style bridge (which is lifting), other weirdness. In the not too distant future, it will need a new bridge, a neck reset and likely a re fret.

 

The owner of the store was very upfront about everything it was and everything it needed. It will never be the top collectible guitar due to the refinish. He suggested I play it as is until the bridge becomes a real problem. This shop will happily do the work and will do an incredible job, but for that kind of job, they are 9-12 months out - they have 10 guitars owned by the shop waiting for resets plus another half a dozen customer guitars. Normally, they would have completed the work needed on this one and retailed it for proper money but decided they didn't want to sit on it when it can be played as is and despite a small lift in the bridge, is relatively stable.

 

I am happy to own it and happy to play it as is for now. I just finished playing it for an hour and am loving it more and more by the day. But I will want to get it fixed up sooner than later and am wondering if anyone could recommend another shop or luthier for the job? To complicate matters, I am in Canada, but would be okay shipping it or driving it somewhere within a few hours of a border city like Buffalo or Detroit.

[62burst]

Congrats on the new/old J-45. Of course, pics or it didn't happen (refin or no). A big fan of the unsung WM-45 here, also- the thin finish on the satin ones doesn't require as thick of a finish as one needed to be a shiny guitar. . . also contributes to a lighter guitar (the martin d-15 has this feature, as well).

 

As far as your 47/'48- Sal (Themissal) here on the forum uses the same shop as I for luthier work, they're experts at extensive repairs or regular set ups. Unfortunately, someone keeps singing their praises, and the turnaround time on a job such as you describe can easily match the time your local trusted shop has given you, not to mention the risks of shipping ; ). If you have the patience, go local, and remember- it took a long time for the guitar to get where it needed those repairs- 9-12 months is ok with getting it right again.

[BluesKing777]

Congratulations!

 

I have similar problems with my luthier being a victim of his own fame from great work. 4 weeks to get a pickup! Neck reset.....years!

 

At least your latest aquisition is playable. I don’t suppose you could book the local guy and keep playing til they call? (Mine won’t - if it ain’t there in the workshop, it won’t get one single thought.

 

How far are you from Elderly in Lansing? They have a big staff. Maybe give them the big question?

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Leonard McCoy]

I can but recommend Jerry Rosa of Rosa String Works Workshop fame (link), an excellent and very experienced luthier. Unfortunately, he's based in the Midwestern States (Missouri). But great luthiers are very hard to come by. In any case e-mail him before shipping your instrument to him.

[Jalex]

Mark Stutman at Folkway music in Ontario has a great reputation for vintage instrument repair.

http://www.folkwaymusic.com/repairs/

[zombywoof]

Many repair guys are backed up with warranty work and instruments they get from stores that need to be put in playing condition before they can be sold.

 

My 1942 J-50 was a basket case when I stumbled across it. The original lacquer had been stripped, the bridge, tuners, and pickguard looked like they had been taken off a Yamaha, an open back seam plus four other open cracks in the back, a cracked brace and so on. It took a full year to get it back in my hands. Granted my guy works by himself in a shack behind his house. But he is a wizard who the vintage Martin guys call "Doc." I can assure you it was well worth the wait. When he handed it back to me all I could say was "Whoa, wait a minute, where is the guitar I dropped off."

[62burst]

One reason shops like to have the guitar in-house (instead of “we’ll tell you when we’re ready to take yours in”) is because for major work where finish touch up is required, they like to have several instruments in the same stage of repair- it’s just more efficient. I’m sure they would like to turn them out faster, but things like lacquer require several coats, and time to allow for solvents to gas out of the finish. It also must harden a bit before it can be worked.

[E-minor7]

One reason shops like to have the guitar in-house (instead of "we'll tell you when we're ready to take yours in") is because for major work where finish touch up is required, they like to have several instruments in the same stage of repair- it's just more efficient. I'm sure they would like to turn them out faster, but things like lacquer require several coats, and time to allow for solvents to gas out of the finish. It also must harden a bit before it can be worked.

 

How long would do you think it takes a mint acoustic Gibson for its lacquer to relax/breathe/free itself whatever.

Let's say it leaves the plant on May 1. Could you or anyone else elaborate over the procedure the coats go though over time ?

 

In it's own way an immensely exciting topic that concerns us all.

 

. . . . . . . . . .

Apropos evaporation I heard the now gone weekend track in time. Hep for the good fest, , , but not your best captured bEAT-glimpse so far.

 

Keep rockin'

[Jinder]

How long would do you think it takes a mint acoustic Gibson for its lacquer to relax/breathe/free itself whatever.

Let's say it leaves the plant on May 1. Could you or anyone else elaborate over the procedure the coats go though over time ?

 

In it's own way an immensely exciting topic that concerns us all.

 

. . . . . . . . . .

Apropos evaporation I heard the now gone weekend track in time. Hep for the good fest, , , but not your best captured bEAT-glimpse so far.

 

Keep rockin'

 

In my experience, I feel that for new guits it takes a couple of years for the nitro and wood to really become one with each other, in terms of resonance and bond. After two years I feel the wood and lacquer have really learned to talk with one another and the guitar has started to realise it’s no longer an assortment of trees...the start of the golden path to greatness. From then on it’s just gradual betterment, like the learning process of life itself.

[62burst]

How long would do you think it takes a mint acoustic Gibson for its lacquer to relax/breathe/free itself whatever.

Let's say it leaves the plant on May 1. Could you or anyone else elaborate over the procedure the coats go though over time ?

 

In it's own way an immensely exciting topic that concerns us all.

Yes, years, but it's a fairly steep curve for that guitar leaving Bozeman tomorrow, May 1. Some say playing-in the first hour brings a change, and a few builders even try the ToneRite device. But things that help cure lacquer can't hurt, either. As much as we'd like to capture and conserve the smell in the case, it's probably not the best place for a freshly minted guitar- sunshine, in moderation, and fresh air (and I've always wondered about the air movement into and out of an acoustic) might help as well as just playing the guitar. I've gotten heat for wondering about curing glues inside the guitar, even though I've noticed improvement in guitars one year after a neck set- without looking for the improvement, it just hit me over the head with it. The hide glue in the neck joint cures, hardens, and clarifies.

 

Maybe heating and cooling cycles help things on a level we can't see, but the evidence in the form of checking and crazing in an old guitar might speak to how the finish became more brittle with time.

[zombywoof]

Lacquer does not technically cure. It does dry (there is a difference) which can take a few weeks to several months. But ya'll do realize that the wood your guitar is built with does not breathe nor ever did (the leaves breathed kept alive by the water stored and distributed by the tree) and that the lacquer covering it is a sealant designed to protect the wood from the forces of nature and not allow anything to get to it.

[62burst]

"Cure" being used figuratively. How 'bout "never finishes curing" ? As far as wood does not "breathe" ? Let's take that one figuratively, as well. Something's happening there, but let's not drag out the big- O (osmosis). And finishes, such as nitrocellulose lacquer, become more porous with age, wouldn't they?

 

[jheath]

Mark Stutman at Folkway music in Ontario has a great reputation for vintage instrument repair.

http://www.folkwaymusic.com/repairs/

 

Absolutely! That's where the guitar came from and will likely end up getting done, just checking on other options.

[jheath]

I can but recommend Jerry Rosa of Rosa String Works Workshop fame (link), an excellent and very experienced luthier. Unfortunately, he's based in the Midwestern States (Missouri). But great luthiers are very hard to come by. In any case e-mail him before shipping your instrument to him.

 

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll get in touch with him about it.

[jheath]

Congratulations!

 

I have similar problems with my luthier being a victim of his own fame from great work. 4 weeks to get a pickup! Neck reset.....years!

 

At least your latest aquisition is playable. I don’t suppose you could book the local guy and keep playing til they call? (Mine won’t - if it ain’t there in the workshop, it won’t get one single thought.

 

How far are you from Elderly in Lansing? They have a big staff. Maybe give them the big question?

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

I thought about Elderly, never been there but have browsed their site many times. I might drop them a line about the job to see what they think of it. Thanks.

[OldCowboy]

I don't consider lacquer to be nominally 'cured' enough to approach without concern in new guitars for minimally 6 months. After that, the positive results of further maturation begin and may well continue throughout the life of the instrument. You gotta play the thing, though, or it remains an essentially new guitar wearing an old coat....

[zombywoof]

If you think about why Dupont came up with the stuff and its primary use, it was to seal and protect the paint jobs on automobiles. At one point in time Gibson was actually using the same Forbes/PPG lacquer the automobile industry was using.

[E-minor7]

In my experience, I feel that for new guits it takes a couple of years for the nitro and wood to really become one with each other, in terms of resonance and bond. After two years I feel the wood and lacquer have really learned to talk with one another and the guitar has started to realise it's no longer an assortment of trees...the start of the golden path to greatness. From then on it's just gradual betterment, like the learning process of life itself.

What's really exciting is the phase where the instrument finds itself.

I think there's a clue or riddle hidden between the evaporating lacquer* and the wooden components comin' to terms with each other.

What is what, how and when – that's pretty hard if not impossible to define.

My 2010 J-45 fx needed much more time to loosen up than my 2012 Birds (which at the other hand were played more often).

 

All we know is that something obviously happens during the first 2 years.

Around 5 things are together as a whole and after the 8^th year the 100 to 150 assembled parts in our hands have become a guitar.

And yes – from then on it just a free more and more joyous ride forward.

Funny aspect is that one can see it as well (not talkin' dings).

Look closely and compare a plus 5 with a mint product – everything gets rounded as if the overall visual expression shows a discrete picture of the sonic development.

 

Highly fascinating to follow. Like a gear-less glide from blue over purple to red.

 

 

 

*isn't there a reason Bozeman presented extra thin lacquer on their recent 'vintage' models.

[Dave F]

I use luthier Jamonn Zeiler for all my work. He's in Indiana.

 

I picked up this Banner last year.

He did a neck reset and made a new bridge to replace the shaved down one it came with.

I trust him with anything.

He currently has an HD28 BRW of mine that he's replacing the bar frets, adding an adjustable truss rod and reshaping the neck. It's a custom build from '82 that was built to pre war specs which I've grown to dislike. If it were a vintage one, I would not have this done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a Custom L00 he made for me