Gibson Brands Forums: Damaged 1965 Hummingbird, worth buying or is it toast? - Gibson Brands Forums

Jump to content

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Damaged 1965 Hummingbird, worth buying or is it toast?

#21 User is offline   zombywoof 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7544
  • Joined: 24-January 08

Posted 18 May 2018 - 05:31 AM

View PostE-minor7, on 17 May 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

My 1968 SJ has 11/16 and is absolutely playable.

Apart from that the golden era Stones camp contained several Birds, not just the first 2 ceramic saddled cherries seen in the Goddard movie.
There were at least one with rosewood saddle and if I'm not too far off a plastic bridge ceramic saddle version as well.
In fact there are also pics of Jagger with a blonde 68'er on the web. And Richards can be seen/heard with a Norlin Dove to ice the cake.

Hope you have checked the oldie Mick uses on stage nowadays. The quintessential Hummingbird in a marvelous state. That guitar shines.




I have played more than a few 1968 Gibson J-45s and SJs and they all had the 1 9/16" nut. But neck carve and nut width are, of course, purely personal preference. The difference in feel between a 1959 SJ and even a 1960 though is like night and day. It does not mean that I cannot play the 1960 Gibson, just that there are other Gibsons I like the feel of better.
By the way, I finally did find a source for a bone a ADJ saddle - Philadelphia Luthier Tools and Supplies. Ironically I found them just before I hooked up with a repair shop that owns a CNC machine and can make me any part I should want or need.

Apparently in 1965 Gibson loaded the Stones up with guitars. They not only gave Keef an HB (which there are photos of him using in the studio that year) but a Firebird and an acoustic Epiphone 12 string as well as giving both he and Brian a matched pair of Heritage acoustics. Smart move on Gibson's part though as back in 1965, if I actually had indulging, well heeled parents (which I did not), I would have tried to get them to buy me any guitar the Stones played. Thing is back then I was still not sure what those guitars were and would have been happy with something like a Silvertone version that looked like the real deal. Never did get one of those either though.

This post has been edited by zombywoof: 18 May 2018 - 05:31 AM

__________________________________________________


"I play so rough - I stomp 'em"
Bukka White
0

#22 User is offline   E-minor7 

  • Winger
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 8096
  • Joined: 09-June 10

Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:31 AM

View Postzombywoof, on 18 May 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

Apparently in 1965 Gibson loaded the Stones up with guitars. They not only gave Keef an HB (which there are photos of him using in the studio that year) but a Firebird and an acoustic Epiphone 12 string as well as giving both he and Brian a matched pair of Heritage acoustics. Smart move on Gibson's part though as back in 1965, , , ,

Yeah, as we know Richards and Jagger got a cherryburst each - while white Vox Teardrop playing Jones had a sunburst J-200.
Suited the guys like well decorated rapiers suit a group of musketeers.

Here's Mick with one special bird I don't believe he ever shared with the others. .


Year unknown, probably early 80's ~ Posted Image

You just can't keep coincidences down. .
Posted Image . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
0

#23 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 02:05 PM

 E-minor7, on 17 May 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

My 1968 SJ has 11/16 and is absolutely playable.

Apart from that the golden era Stones camp contained several Birds, not just the first 2 ceramic saddled cherries seen in the Goddard movie.
There were at least one with rosewood saddle and if I'm not too far off a plastic bridge ceramic saddle version as well.
In fact there are also pics of Jagger with a blonde 68'er on the web. And Richards can be seen/heard with a Norlin Dove to ice the cake.

Hope you have checked the oldie Mick uses on stage nowadays. The quintessential Hummingbird in a marvelous state. That guitar shines.




When I had my Bird I compared it with every photo I could find of the Stones with theirs and none matched (I’d post a photo if I could work out how!). I concluded (possibly incorrectly) that none of the Stones’ ones were ‘68s. But maybe mine wasn’t a ‘68 after all? Mine had a Martin style belly down bridge. None of the Stones guitars have this. Not sure when this was introduced - maybe later in ‘68? I don’t think I’ve ever seen Keith with a rosewood saddle one - only Mick. And I’m pretty sure Mick didn’t play any of the guitar parts on Beggars Banquet. The acoustic guitar parts on this album have a very Hummingbird sound but I suspect this was one of the (probably) ‘64 ones they picked up on their US tour in ‘65 (previous error on my behalf when I stated it was ‘64). I haven’t seen anything anywhere to suggest that Keith ever played a ‘68 Bird - but I’m happy to be proved wrong!
0

#24 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 02:24 PM

The Hummingbird’s a great guitar with a unique sound. I’d love to have an earlier one with the wider neck. Tried buying a very nice ‘64 one from the US from a dealer who assured me he would do all the CITES paperwork and it would be fine. Further research indicated this wasn’t quite right. You cannot legally import a guitar built on or after 1st March 1947 if it contains Brazilian rosewood - which excludes any ‘64 Bird sadly. They’re not easy to find in the U.K.
0

#25 User is offline   zombywoof 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7544
  • Joined: 24-January 08

Posted 18 May 2018 - 02:32 PM

View PostCharlie99, on 18 May 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

When I had my Bird I compared it with every photo I could find of the Stones with theirs and none matched (I’d post a photo if I could work out how!). I concluded (possibly incorrectly) that none of the Stones’ ones were ‘68s. But maybe mine wasn’t a ‘68 after all? Mine had a Martin style belly down bridge. None of the Stones guitars have this.


I am pretty sure that when John Hiatt called the Hummingbird the greatest rock & roll acoustic ever built he was thinking of Keef.

As I said, Gibson gave the Stones a bunch of Gibsons when they were on the 1965 tour. There is a well known photo of Keef in RCA studios at the end of the year with the Hummingbird they gave him. The question is this the Hummingbird he recorded Jumpin' Jack Flash with in 1968 or was it one he picked up later.

Same thing though happened on the 1969 tour when Ampeg gave them a bunch of their new SVT amps after the Stones had blown their amps up trying to do stadium shows and were borrowing amps from the Who. Everybody wanted them to be seen with their gear. I still have Mick and Charlie's autograph on an ad for Gretsch drums when the Stones were hawking them.

This post has been edited by zombywoof: 18 May 2018 - 02:44 PM

__________________________________________________


"I play so rough - I stomp 'em"
Bukka White
0

#26 User is offline   E-minor7 

  • Winger
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 8096
  • Joined: 09-June 10

Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostCharlie99, on 18 May 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

When I had my Bird I compared it with every photo I could find of the Stones with theirs and none matched (I'd post a photo if I could work out how!). I concluded (possibly incorrectly) that none of the Stones' ones were '68s. But maybe mine wasn't a '68 after all? Mine had a Martin style belly down bridge. None of the Stones guitars have this. Not sure when this was introduced - maybe later in '68? I don't think I've ever seen Keith with a rosewood saddle one - only Mick. And I'm pretty sure Mick didn't play any of the guitar parts on Beggars Banquet. The acoustic guitar parts on this album have a very Hummingbird sound but I suspect this was one of the (probably) '64 ones they picked up on their US tour in '65 (previous error on my behalf when I stated it was '64). I haven't seen anything anywhere to suggest that Keith ever played a '68 Bird - but I'm happy to be proved wrong!


Try the Nellcôte camp - and find the rosewood saddle natural Bird in that setting. Perhaps played by both Richards and Jagger during the exile down there.
Where did you see J with one ?

You are right about 1968 being the year when the Gibson bridges made the 180 degree turn. The 68'er J plays has the conventional up-belly b.
(A screwed down p-guard is the sign of 8).
You just can't keep coincidences down. .
Posted Image . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
0

#27 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:43 PM

 zombywoof, on 18 May 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

I am pretty sure that when John Hiatt called the Hummingbird the greatest rock & roll acoustic ever built he was thinking of Keef.

As I said, Gibson gave the Stones a bunch of Gibsons when they were on the 1965 tour. There is a well known photo of Keef in RCA studios at the end of the year with the Hummingbird they gave him. The question is this the Hummingbird he recorded Jumpin' Jack Flash with in 1968 or was it one he picked up later.



Thruxton key 1296


 zombywoof, on 18 May 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:


As I said, Gibson gave the Stones a bunch of Gibsons when they were on the 1965 tour. There is a well known photo of Keef in RCA studios at the end of the year with the Hummingbird they gave him. The question is this the Hummingbird he recorded Jumpin' Jack Flash with in 1968 or was it one he picked up later.





There were (at least) two Hummingbirds used in the Beggar Banquet recording sessions, a cherry burst and a blonde one. As I recall both a cherry burst and a blonde one were brought back from the States in ‘65. The famous photos from ‘68 of Jeith and Brian playing a natural Bird at Redlands show what seems to be a fairly new guitar with a seemingly narrow neck but with the pickguard fitted with a belly up bridge, which would make it early ‘68 at the latest. Though it could be the ‘64 one. Was this used on Jumpin Jack Flash? Were Keith and Brian putting together the beginnings of the song on the blonde Bird in the Redlands photo? After all, ‘“Jumpin Jack Flash” was a reference to Jack Dyer, Keith’s gardener at Redlands, who was wandering about in the early morning when the song was written.
0

#28 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:54 PM

 E-minor7, on 18 May 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

Try the Nellcôte camp - and find the rosewood saddle natural Bird in that setting. Perhaps played by both Richards and Jagger during the exile down there.
Where did you see J with one ?

You are right about 1968 being the year when the Gibson bridges made the 180 degree turn. The 68'er J plays has the conventional up-belly b.
(A screwed down p-guard is the sign of 8).


I’ve seen the Exile photos - if that’s a ‘68 Bird it’s an early ‘68 one - don’t know when the rosewood saddle came in. It had a.belly up bridge.I meant that I’ve never seen anything to indicate a ‘68 Bird was played on Beggars Banquet. I’m happy to be proved wrong. I’ve never seen any photos of the Stones playing a ‘68 Bird like the one I had, with a belly down bridge (well I was sold it as a ‘68 Bird!) Will see if I can find a photo of the FON - I have quite a few of the bracing (before they introduced the heavy bracing no one likes whose name I forget but with a big mahogany bridge plate). Which is why I stated that a ‘68 Bird was not used on the Beggars Banquet sessions - but maybe an early one with a belly up bridge was?

I suspect the Bird in the Exile photos is quite likely the one on the Redlands photos which also maybe the Jumpin Jack one. Maybe ask Keef (doubt he’d remember!)
0

#29 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:58 PM

Photo of Mick with a blonde HB wearing a hat and looking a bit camp - search “Mick Jagger Hummingbird”. Looks earlier than Exile.
0

#30 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:59 PM

My FON looks like 959017
0

#31 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 04:08 PM

“Double X” bracing - mine didn’t have this, or the heavier bracing supposedly introduced in ‘68 - yet it had the belly down bridge with rosewood saddle. Sounded great, but neck too narrow for me.
0

#32 User is offline   E-minor7 

  • Winger
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 8096
  • Joined: 09-June 10

Posted 18 May 2018 - 04:18 PM

View PostCharlie99, on 18 May 2018 - 03:54 PM, said:

I've seen the Exile photos - if that's a '68 Bird it's an early '68 one - don't know when the rosewood saddle came in. It had a.belly up bridge.I meant that I've never seen anything to indicate a '68 Bird was played on Beggars Banquet. I'm happy to be proved wrong. I've never seen any photos of the Stones playing a '68 Bird like the one I had, with a belly down bridge (well I was sold it as a '68 Bird!) Will see if I can find a photo of the FON - I have quite a few of the bracing (before they introduced the heavy bracing no one likes whose name I forget but with a big mahogany bridge plate). Which is why I stated that a '68 Bird was not used on the Beggars Banquet sessions - but maybe an early one with a belly up bridge was?

I suspect the Bird in the Exile photos is quite likely the one on the Redlands photos which also maybe the Jumpin Jack one. Maybe ask Keef (doubt he'd remember!)

Not saying the Nellcôte Bird is a 68'er - but it has the rosewood saddle, which was probably in the guitar from scratch.

And yes, the one in the hands of corny-hat-Mick is a 68.

I see 2 cherryburst first wave Hummingbirds in action during Beggars B.
No blonde, , , , on Godard's celluloid anyway - can you point it out. .

Cheers
You just can't keep coincidences down. .
Posted Image . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
0

#33 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 05:11 PM

No I can’t see any natural Bird on the Beggars recording sessions (yep, I’m frequently wrong - happy to admit it!) As someone has already pointed out, I don’t know much about Gibsons - which is why I joined this forum, in the hope that I might absorb some of the wisdom imparted by the cognoscenti.

Two cherry burst HBs, both with belly up bridges that look like rosewood and saddles that look like ceramic feature in photos/videos of the session (but I can’t help wonder whether the blonde one played at Redlands might have been used - or maybe it was just kept for home use). If this were to be the case, then my understanding (possibly incorrect) is that these Birds were pre-‘68.

Which brings me back to my statement that I didn’t believe that ‘68 Birds were played on Beggars Banquet. My reason for making this statement was because my Hummingbird, which I was sold as a ‘68, had a belly-down bridge, rosewood saddle and different pickguard than these - and I therefore concurred, possibly incorrectly, that because they didn’t look like my Bird, they too weren’t ‘68 Birds.

My corrected statement would be something along the lines of: “‘68 Hummingbird sellers frequently claim that the Stones played these guitars on Beggars Banquet. They might have. But only if they were early ‘68 ones with belly-up bridges, ceramic saddles and the earlier style pickguards. These would have had lighter bracing and not the heavier ‘Double X’ bracing introduced later. If the ‘68 Hummingbird for sale has the belly down bridge and associated pickguard, and a rosewood saddle, it’s unlikely this particular variant was played on the album”.

This post has been edited by Charlie99: 18 May 2018 - 05:15 PM

0

#34 User is offline   j45nick 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 10398
  • Joined: 05-February 11
  • LocationSouth Florida

Posted 18 May 2018 - 05:24 PM

View PostCharlie99, on 18 May 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

My corrected statement would be something along the lines of: “‘68 Hummingbird sellers frequently claim that the Stones played these guitars on Beggars Banquet. They might have. But only if they were early ‘68 ones with belly-up bridges, ceramic saddles and the earlier style pickguards. These would have had lighter bracing and not the heavier ‘Double X’ bracing introduced later. If the ‘68 Hummingbird for sale has the belly down bridge and associated pickguard, and a rosewood saddle, it’s unlikely this particular variant was played on the album”.



I'm pretty sure you won't see double-x bracing on any Gibson prior to 1969-1970 at the earliest. Gibson did use belly-down (Martin style) bridges in 1968, but most of those seem to have the rosewood saddle. I can date one of those definitively, since it came on my re-topped (by Gibson) old J-45, which I sent back to the factory in June of 1968, and which came back to me in late August of 1968 minus the original 1948-1950 top and slot-through belly-up bridge.
0

#35 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 05:46 PM

 j45nick, on 18 May 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure you won't see double-x bracing on any Gibson prior to 1969-1970 at the earliest. Gibson did use belly-down (Martin style) bridges in 1968, but most of those seem to have the rosewood saddle. I can date one of those definitively, since it came on my re-topped (by Gibson) old J-45, which I sent back to the factory in June of 1968, and which came back to me in late August of 1968 minus the original 1948-1950 top and slot-through belly-up bridge.


Mine had a Martin-style bridge and rosewood saddle. FON 957017 is in the second group of ‘68 numbers so that would make it a later model - clearly from late August at the latest. Gibson Flat Tops states that heavier braces were fitted from ‘68 along with the “different bridge system” which resulted in tonal loss. Mine had 1/4” braces so maybe the braces became heavier some time after the belly-down bridges appeared.

This post has been edited by Charlie99: 18 May 2018 - 05:48 PM

0

#36 User is offline   Charlie99 

  • Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 13-May 18

Posted 18 May 2018 - 07:48 PM

Yes mine also had the screwed on pickguard, reputedly only used for ‘68. This seems consistent across the year. Belly up bridges with ceramic saddles seem to have been the norm earlier on, changing to rosewood saddle, then Martin-style belly down bridge. Usually this had a rosewood saddle though some seem to have a ceramic saddle (though could have been added). The cherry burst ones used on Beggars Banquet may have been early ‘68s - the only way to tell for sure would be by the screw-in pickguard. Never seen a ‘68 or later Birdwiyh belly-down bridge like mine used by the Stones (it was an influencing factor in my decision to get rid of it, I have to confess, though the main reason was the slim neck). I suspect the new-looking blonde HB played by Brian and Keith at Redlands in ‘68 was a ‘68 model and quite possibly the one photographed with Mick in the hat and in the Exile photos.
0

#37 User is offline   zombywoof 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7544
  • Joined: 24-January 08

Posted 18 May 2018 - 09:19 PM

When it comes down to it, I guess I am just not a Hummingbird fan. I have had more folks than I can recall try to sell me one. It is one of those guitars that I really want to like but just don't get. I once had a '64 HB in the house for about a month on loan from somebody determined to sell it to me. But I always backed away. For what it is worth, my favorite acoustic six string from the 1960s remains the Harmony Sovereign 1260. I own three of them.
__________________________________________________


"I play so rough - I stomp 'em"
Bukka White
0

#38 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 142
  • Joined: 17-September 11

Posted 18 May 2018 - 10:03 PM

Folks, I've enjoyed reading about this guitar and all of the expertise surrounding this one - not to mention other threads - and thought back a few years ago to a purchase I didn't make. A 1968 Hummingbird at a local shop for $5k. I was there hunting my first nice, really nice acoustic. I played it. It sang to me. We would have been mates. Alas, I was too chicken-sh*t to roll then dice on a nearly 50 year old guitar at that point.

But yeah, that this played so nicely. Sooo nicely. Sounded even better. The tone just exploded out of that guitar. (sigh!!!)
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - MIM Tele - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
Pro Tools based "Home Project Studio"
0

#39 User is offline   E-minor7 

  • Winger
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 8096
  • Joined: 09-June 10

Posted 18 May 2018 - 11:25 PM

View PostCharlie99, on 18 May 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

Yes mine also had the screwed on pickguard, reputedly only used for '68. This seems consistent across the year. Belly up bridges with ceramic saddles seem to have been the norm earlier on, changing to rosewood saddle, then Martin-style belly down bridge. Usually this had a rosewood saddle though some seem to have a ceramic saddle (though could have been added). The cherry burst ones used on Beggars Banquet may have been early '68s - the only way to tell for sure would be by the screw-in pickguard. Never seen a '68 or later Birdwiyh belly-down bridge like mine used by the Stones (it was an influencing factor in my decision to get rid of it, I have to confess, though the main reason was the slim neck). I suspect the new-looking blonde HB played by Brian and Keith at Redlands in '68 was a '68 model and quite possibly the one photographed with Mick in the hat and in the Exile photos.

I don't see why the BB-Birds shouldn't be the 2 originals from 1964/65.

And yes, you are right, no heavy braced square ever seems to have entered the Stones camp - they knew what they wanted.
However 1 or 2 plastic bridged versions occurred after France and something indicates that the classic Angie-intro, which many uses a sonic acoustic-Stones-measure-stick, was played on a ceramic insert in plast !

Apropos the Nellcôte guitar, it is not the corny-hat-Mick 68'er. Richards' has no screws (and might be the one seen in Redlands just before Jones left the planet).
Here's a shot of the Richards Nellcôte-blondie. It was stolen along with a handful of other guitars during the exile, but recently reemerged.


Last year or the year before ~ Posted Image

If skeptical do compare the guards. There's a shot where Keith leans back with closed eyes showing the dark karma above the yellow butterfly.

This post has been edited by E-minor7: 19 May 2018 - 07:40 AM

You just can't keep coincidences down. .
Posted Image . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
0

#40 User is offline   zombywoof 

  • Advanced Member
  • Group: All Access
  • Posts: 7544
  • Joined: 24-January 08

Posted 19 May 2018 - 07:13 AM

View PostPatriotsBiker, on 18 May 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

Folks, I've enjoyed reading about this guitar and all of the expertise surrounding this one - not to mention other threads - and thought back a few years ago to a purchase I didn't make. A 1968 Hummingbird at a local shop for $5k. I was there hunting my first nice, really nice acoustic. I played it. It sang to me. We would have been mates. Alas, I was too chicken-sh*t to roll then dice on a nearly 50 year old guitar at that point.

But yeah, that this played so nicely. Sooo nicely. Sounded even better. The tone just exploded out of that guitar. (sigh!!!)


You brought a smile to my face as the newest guitar I own was birthed in 1969. But if nothing else, this post beings it home that you really need to know your way around these older guitars. You have to be able to ID any existing or potential issues and then be able to put together a ballpark figure in your head of what the repairs will run you. If not, you can get burned real quick.
__________________________________________________


"I play so rough - I stomp 'em"
Bukka White
0

Share this topic:


  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users