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1951 J-45


Charlie99

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I’m checking out a ‘51 J-45 with a view to buying it. I’ve played it side by side with a nice and very clean ‘52 J-50 and of the two I prefer the tone of the J-45 - it’s really quite amazing. I’ve played it alongside my ‘55 D-18 and I still like it enough to buy it (and, being England, these things are big bucks) - very few mahogany bodied guitars pass the D-18 test! I really wanted a ‘46 Script J-45 which was advertised but disappeared before I got to see it, but this really sounds nice and I’m seriously considering it.

 

It’s quite well played though in overall good shape other than for the centre seams at front and back showing. On the back there is some definite slight separation. This is a pity because otherwise it’s a great guitar. Other than cosmetically, are visible seams that much of a concern though?

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If I loved the guitar it wouldn't bug me, but I only buy rescues. Good luthiers will re-humidify a guitar with a seam like that before repairing it and often tighten things back up.

 

Could the tone dif between the 45 and 50 be something inconsequential like strings? You may want to investigate further.

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If it was a rescue it wouldn’t bother me - my KG-14 I bought as a rescue years ago has a visible front seam and that doesn’t worry me at all. But when I’m thinking of spending over £5k on an old Gibson I’m not sure it’s worth it - though in every other respect it’s a lovely guitar. It’s really the back seam that is my biggest concern.

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Well worth it if you can get one for a good price that needs some work. Not many of that type over here though and with CITES it’s even more difficult. I think I’m going to have to give this one a miss unless the dealer offers a substantial reduction. It’s a shame because it’s really outstanding. The ‘52,J-50 for around the same price is very clean indeed - it’s nice too, very clear and brighter than the J-45 but the J-45’s tone appeals to me more. Also the ‘51 neck I find more comfortable.

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Generally, centerline back seam repair is simple, thanks to the full-length cleat reinforcing the centerline on the inside. That's what it's there for. Remember than when the back is made, it is a bookmatched glue joint between two pieces that are only 1/8" (3mm) thick. This is not much gluing surface, and without the internal reinforcement of that centerline cleat, it would never survive.

 

The top is about that same thickness. It is reinforced by the bridge and bridgeplate, and by the fretboard extension forward of the soundhole.

 

The repair of an open top seam generally consists of small diamond-shaped cleats over the seam on the inside, after carefully cleaning the joint if it is in fact open to the point that you can see daylight through it. My luthier typically charges $100 per crack repair, and you usually can't even see them afterwards.

 

Make sure that the two guitars are an apples to apples comparison by putting the same new strings on both. For that kind of money, the seller should be willing to do this. Bring your favorite light-gauge strings, preferably phosphor bronze on those particular guitars.

 

 

There should not be much difference between the neck on a '51 and '52, but the necks were hand finished, so there may be slight differences.

 

 

It's all about playability, tone and condition in making this choice. Assign value to each of those properties for each guitar on a 1-10 or 1-100 scale, and add up the numbers.

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Thanks j45nick for the advice. The seam separation doesn’t sound so bad. Both guitars had Martin Eric Claoton PB strings, both new or almost new. They are both very different but both really nice - I’ve spent a lot of time playing them and made some brief recordings to listen back. The j-45 wins hands down for me - it’s louder (which isn’t the reason I prefer it) with a very ‘punchy’ yet sonorous voice. The J-50 is better balanced and less bassy, brighter. At first I thought it was a bit light but it has grown on me. But it doesn’t have the punchy vibe of the J-45, which I like. The necks are probably the same width but the J-45’s is a little deeper - more ‘D’ than ‘C’, while the J-50 is more ‘C’ than ‘D’, more like a ‘50s Martin neck. I find I have to tighten a capo when switching from the J-45 to the J-50. I found the J-45 just a little more comfortable but not a lot in it

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To your question per “are they a concern”, to me they are not if you’re not looking for a pristine collector guitar. I’m my book they are less of an issue than dryness cracks in other areas, or impact cracks in the side. They don’t “stand out” like the others might, eh?

 

I’d not let seam separation keep me from buying a guitar that grabbed me. I don’t think it’s such a deduction in value as other cracks, all else being equal.

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"Passes the D-18 test"? Comparing the tone of an old D-18 and it still captures your interest. . . very good. Much love for the venerable D-18, and the '51 J-45 would be an excellent companion to it- it's short scale, body shape, bracing, and the warmth of the sound and the aged 'burst would get and keep my attention as well.

 

And add another vote to those would not let seam separation throw me off of the trail of a guitar that had already won me over for it's tone and feel. As Jedzep said, a good bit of that might close up with rehydration- just don't tell the guitar monger when it comes time to negotiate.

 

Photos?

 

Good luck.

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And add another vote to those would not let seam separation throw me off of the trail of a guitar that had already won me over for it's tone and feel.

 

 

And me.

 

It's only money.

 

Add to that the fact that we're talking about YOUR money and it's final.

 

Buy it.

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"Passes the D-18 test"? Comparing the tone of an old D-18 and it still captures your interest. . . very good. Much love for the venerable D-18, and the '51 J-45 would be an excellent companion to it- it's short scale, body shape, bracing, and the warmth of the sound and the aged 'burst would get and keep my attention as well.

 

And add another vote to those would not let seam separation throw me off of the trail of a guitar that had already won me over for it's tone and feel. As Jedzep said, a good bit of that might close up with rehydration- just don't tell the guitar monger when it comes time to negotiate.

 

Photos?

 

Good luck.

 

Very few guitars get past the D-18 test - it’s a very effective cure for GAS and has saved me money in the past! The ‘51 J-45 has a different voice, unique enough and attractive enough in its own way to make it worth considering. Once I’ve worked out how to add photos (I don’t think you can from a phone) I’ll post some over the weekend.

 

Thanks for the advice.

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You have it wrong. It is can a D-18 pass the J-45 test.

 

Open seams do not bother me much. Then again, neither does much of anything else. Many of my guitars were salvage operations. My 1942 J-50 not only had an open back seam but four other open cracks in the back. My pre-War Regal 12 string jumbo, one of the hardest guitars on the planet to find, was found sticking out of a trash can and had a neck that was so loose I popped it off cleanly with thumb pressure. My early 1930s Oscar Schmidt Sovereign had a collapsing top. And so it goes, so it goes.

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Open seams don’t bother me - I’m not a fan of new guitars, nor am I keen on mint ‘unplayed’ old ones. Of all the old guitars I’ve owned it’s almost invariably the most played ones that have sounded the best. However, when you’re paying a premium price for something you do tend to expect it to be in premium condition. I suppose I’d expect to pay less for a scruffy old dog of a guitar than a pristine unplayed one - even if the old dog sounded better than the mint one. It’s always seemed part of the attraction - knowing that I’ve paid half the price for a ratty old guitar than a ‘collector’ has for an immaculate one that’s spent its life in a case under someone’s bed , and the smug satisfaction that comes from knowing my low-priced old dog sounds better than the collector’s pristine one. In this case I’m paying a collectors’ price for a guitar that, while I wouldn’t describe it as a scruffy old dog has certainly seen its fair share of action, and shows it. Anyway, I’ve put a deposit on it to avoid this one ‘disappearing’ like the ‘46 J-45 I missed out on.. The dealer’s agreed to have the seams sorted. They’re certainly no cause for concern it seems, but if they can be improved upon, so much the better.

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You have it wrong. It is can a D-18 pass the J-45 test.

 

Open seams do not bother me much. Then again, neither does much of anything else. Many of my guitars were salvage operations. My 1942 J-50 not only had an open back seam but four other open cracks in the back. My pre-War Regal 12 string jumbo, one of the hardest guitars on the planet to find, was found sticking out of a trash can and had a neck that was so loose I popped it off cleanly with thumb pressure. My early 1930s Oscar Schmidt Sovereign had a collapsing top. And so it goes, so it goes.

 

Did you pay top dollar for these salvage operations I wonder? I’d be more than happy buying any guitar with the kind of issues you mention - at the right price.

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Well that didn’t last long! That guitar just didn’t feel right. To start with I liked it a lot, but when I sent it back to the dealer to have the seams tidied up I suddenly realised that I just didn’t like it. So I bought s ‘44 Banner LG-2 with Adirondack top - Haven’t got it yet or played it but I have a better feeling about this one. Still keeping an eye out for a late Forties J-45 . But also considering a new Standard J-45 - heard a lot of good things about these. I found the ‘51 a bit too “chimey’ for my liking, too much sustain .l

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I found the 51 a bit too chimey for my liking, too much sustain .

 

 

That, my friend, is part of what makes a good late-40's or early 50's J-45 so very good. Sounds like they may not be the right guitar for you, if that's not what you want. You can modulate both of those characteristics by choice of strings and pick.

 

If you are looking for more thump, put on a set of DR Sunbeams and play them in for about a year. I just changed them on my SJ after three years, as they were getting just a bit too thumpy for my taste.

 

 

If you flatpick, try a heavy Blue Chip to dampen the chime.

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That's a good overall perspective, Nick. I've never been worried about a guitar that had too much sustain, something that's controllable with either hand, or with string and pick choice. J45's have a 'big' sound anyway, and Charlie's move to an LG2 will be different tonally. Hope you like the dif, Charlie. I'm so grateful to have found my way back to a good J, but I know I need one of each in my house, small bod and J.

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I had a 1950 J-50 which was traded for a 53'er. One of the best bargains I ever did.

The 1950 was rustic and raw and just what the other guy was after - his 53 was smooth and elegant, full of poetry and woody warmth.

I dug it from the first 3 chords and our deal went like a hot knife through jersey-cow-butter.

And though the 53'er had an un-original bridge and a so called JLD-system installed, things couldn't be better, , , or more butter.

 

The JLD was removed after a year. Somewhat daring and the top between the lower bouts soon raised causing the bridge-angle to tilt.

Never mind, , , as they say in roll'n'rock - didn't cost intonation.

 

So happy with the guitar.

Tuned half a step down and capoed on the second I have big plans on it this summer.

Guess what, , , , Anji - yes, the old one from 1960 and we're already kind of goin' steady.

 

A quite difficult* chick, but the right amount of pleasure is there (you know, guys).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*if not neurotic

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