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My Bird Needed Replacement

#1 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 05:18 PM

So, my new bird .... well, it was a strange occurance. I was cleaning her up this morning and flipped the bottom-side (as if laying on it's edge) and there were these strange ridges. I could feel it through the finish. It was obvious to see. 2-3 inches and sort of cloud shaped. Extended from it going towards the actual bottom of the guitar was a much smaller and less obvious, but it was a much straighter line and added an additional 4-5 inches to the bigger section. Holy Smokes!!!

So i take it back to Sam Ash that instant. We waltz on in and discover my long time guitar sales manager dude had flew the coop and the other salesman I've dealt with for years was nowhere in sight. Fortunately we know most of the people there by site and dealing with them on things over the years, including the new guitar manager, so no problems being recognized and trusted.

So him and the other salesman both saw it straight away, examined it briefly and called it some sort of internal, below the finish crack. My wife and I both forgot what he called it. As soon as he started to describe it, I knew it would need to be replaced or sent away to Gibson for some impressive repair. My heart sunk. You guys know how hard it can be to find a nice sounding guitar. I went 3 years between playing nice sounding birds.

And so, having paid for the extra warranty, they offered to order a new one or take the one off the wall that had replace mine. I tried out quite a few over the years before finding one I liked the tone on. This one sounded just as nice, AND it played a bit better. Sweet! It's in perfect shape. We all went over it with a fine tooth comb. Two slightly darker bits of grain about 1/2 inch each and the sound-hole spray was not as neat as I would have liked, but everything else was spot on. And really, I could care less about a couple dark bits of grain.

It's there now as their tech will swap out the electronics. I had an anthem system installed, which now has to go into the newest bird. We pick it up Thursday.

Anyone ever had or hear of anything like this happen on a new guitar? I thought it was quite odd. Big Kudos to the Sam Ash store in Raleigh. They've been good to me for a long time.

Here are some pics. I shot dozens, but only 10 or so showed any hints of the cracks. Two of the photos showed part of the bigger section, but the only thing I could get to appear on the crack 'line' portion was a couple spots about 1/2 inch long.

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This post has been edited by PatriotsBiker: 08 July 2018 - 05:19 PM

2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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#2 User is offline   ThemisSal 

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 05:30 PM

I am wondering if this is where your guitar might make contact with keys in your pocket....
Regardless, I hope you enjoy your new one. FYI these are fairly simple repairs for a real luthier, who would make them look as good as new. Iím not sure Iíd trust a big box repair guy though...
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#3 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 07:09 PM

View PostThemisSal, on 08 July 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

I am wondering if this is where your guitar might make contact with keys in your pocket....
Regardless, I hope you enjoy your new one. FYI these are fairly simple repairs for a real luthier, who would make them look as good as new. Iím not sure Iíd trust a big box repair guy though...

No contact with keys - never in pocket. Always play with a strap lifting it above my lap, anyhow.

I wish I had been able to get better pictures. It's tough to describe. The bigger areas that you can see in the photos - those lines don't indent or crack the finish. They come from below the finish. It was not external. very strange.

I'll have to ask him what those "cracks" were called. All's I remember was something about under the finish. In fact, he was sure to say that it definitely did not come from outside, like physical damage abuse or something. That's why I wanted to go and went straight over before any external cracking could occur. It looked like a wood and finish version of a mole pushing up grass from burrowing underneath. Anything light that looks like cracked finish in the photos is light reflection. Possible exception being at the very bottom of that line that goes away from the bigger area.
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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#4 User is offline   mz-s 

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:15 PM

Almost like the crack was already there when they built the guitar, they just didn't notice them. Strange for sure. They would have had to have been there right, certainly the finish would have cracked with the wood if the cracks appeared later.
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#5 User is offline   MissouriPicker 

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:45 PM

Glad you got the problem resolved. "Birds" are very special guitars.
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#6 User is offline   Lars68 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 02:02 AM

Sorry to hear about your issues. It doesn't look like cracks to me. Cracks always go straight along the grain. Parts of that line in one of the pictures clearly goes against the grain. Either way, glad you got it resolved!

Lars
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#7 User is offline   BluesKing777 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:15 AM

View PostPatriotsBiker, on 08 July 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

So, my new bird .... well, it was a strange occurance. I was cleaning her up this morning and flipped the bottom-side (as if laying on it's edge) and there were these strange ridges. I could feel it through the finish. It was obvious to see. 2-3 inches and sort of cloud shaped. Extended from it going towards the actual bottom of the guitar was a much smaller and less obvious, but it was a much straighter line and added an additional 4-5 inches to the bigger section. Holy Smokes!!!

So i take it back to Sam Ash that instant. We waltz on in and discover my long time guitar sales manager dude had flew the coop and the other salesman I've dealt with for years was nowhere in sight. Fortunately we know most of the people there by site and dealing with them on things over the years, including the new guitar manager, so no problems being recognized and trusted.

So him and the other salesman both saw it straight away, examined it briefly and called it some sort of internal, below the finish crack. My wife and I both forgot what he called it. As soon as he started to describe it, I knew it would need to be replaced or sent away to Gibson for some impressive repair. My heart sunk. You guys know how hard it can be to find a nice sounding guitar. I went 3 years between playing nice sounding birds.

And so, having paid for the extra warranty, they offered to order a new one or take the one off the wall that had replace mine. I tried out quite a few over the years before finding one I liked the tone on. This one sounded just as nice, AND it played a bit better. Sweet! It's in perfect shape. We all went over it with a fine tooth comb. Two slightly darker bits of grain about 1/2 inch each and the sound-hole spray was not as neat as I would have liked, but everything else was spot on. And really, I could care less about a couple dark bits of grain.

It's there now as their tech will swap out the electronics. I had an anthem system installed, which now has to go into the newest bird. We pick it up Thursday.

Anyone ever had or hear of anything like this happen on a new guitar? I thought it was quite odd. Big Kudos to the Sam Ash store in Raleigh. They've been good to me for a long time.

Here are some pics. I shot dozens, but only 10 or so showed any hints of the cracks. Two of the photos showed part of the bigger section, but the only thing I could get to appear on the crack 'line' portion was a couple spots about 1/2 inch long.




Those look inexplicable to me. The Guitar Fairies strike again!

Are you controlling the humidity? If you are in a humid area, a drain plug is needed. If a desert area, a hose!

Or Humidipaks....


BluesKing777.

This post has been edited by BluesKing777: 09 July 2018 - 04:26 AM

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#8 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:06 AM

View Postmz-s, on 08 July 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Almost like the crack was already there when they built the guitar, they just didn't notice them. Strange for sure. They would have had to have been there right, certainly the finish would have cracked with the wood if the cracks appeared later.

There was a little bit of something there when we bought it that looked like a spot with an imperfect finish. Nothing that could be felt. The Salesman, who was not there yesterday, and I looked at it, felt it and agreed the finish was flat and even and just a bit of a cosmetic blunder. I chose to live with it because it was the best new bird I ever tried. It was really that insignificant, and to the point where I'm still having difficulty remembering it all.

The suspicious side of me wants to employ a conspiracy theory about in-store damage and subsequent repair to cover it up gone bad. I'd rather not, though. Especially seeing how it was prominently displayed in a glass case in front of the guitar section for a while until I bought it.
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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#9 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:37 AM

View PostBluesKing777, on 09 July 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Those look inexplicable to me. The Guitar Fairies strike again!

Are you controlling the humidity? If you are in a humid area, a drain plug is needed. If a desert area, a hose!

Or Humidipaks....


BluesKing777.

That is something I am constantly looking at. I am hoping it is not something I contributed to climatically.

I'm in the very muggy Southern Mid-Atlantic. North Carolina. Our house HVAC does take humidity out and is set for 55% downstairs and 50% upstairs. In reality, they both stay in the 54-55% range. The Winter heat here is the scary part of the year for guitars. I am much more strict to humidifying them at that point.

I've had this on a stand - a well sequestered stand - for at least 4 of the 7 weeks I've owned it. I normally use a Kyser sound hole cover style humidifier, but cannot on this one due to the Anthem unit. I use a Dampit tube style one on the bird. Not used to this style, so I use much caution. After soaking, I squeeze it out very well, let it hang for hours, try squeezing again and repeat the hanging process overnight. I thoroughly check it the next morning. Then it goes into the guitar and into the case. FWIW, the sponge becomes rigid in 4 days. Takes over a week with the Taylor and the Kyser humidifier.

Oddly enough, a couple weeks ago I got it out of the case after almost a week and all the strings were 1/4 detuned. It was a very hot and muggy week, even for us, and the HVAC ran seemingly non-stop. The other times were normal with a string or 2 being 10-cents out or so. Yesterday I played it briefly as soon as I got my strap on her. I think the low-E was a few cents down.

Anything cause anyone to suggest a variation in approach? (just playing the next one safe)
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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#10 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:47 AM

Thanks, Lars! Me too. I can't believe how fortunate I am that the other one sounded every bit as nice, too. I've got my settings written down on my incoming signal chain, so I'll be able to record and examine any nuances. I'll call today to make sure they put the same strings on it that I have.

View PostMissouriPicker, on 08 July 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

Glad you got the problem resolved. "Birds" are very special guitars.

Thanks! That they are. I've got the opportunity to get what I want, which includes upgrading to an SJ200 for a discount. I did play one at another place and fell in gee-tar love despite being very poorly set-up. Still, I do not want to NOT have a bird. I've been spoiled. [thumbup]
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
0

#11 User is offline   BluesKing777 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:33 AM

Iíve got it!

There was something hard flying loose INSIDE when the guitar was in transit in car, truck, plane and whacked the inside when the skids were hit!

(That model doesnít come with a pickup and battery to come loose, does it?) Something hit the inside though..... capo? [mellow]



BluesKing777.
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#12 User is offline   zombywoof 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 07:32 AM

My first though was, whoa you can get an extended warranty on a guitar just like a refrigerator.

Those do not look like structural cracks to me either. If it is running across the grain generally it is just a finish crack. I was expecting you to be talking about those ripples you get on a new guitar top as the finish sinks into the grain which is often an issue of lack of humidity.

Anyway, Glad you got it all worked out. As any guitar can me made to play exactly as you like it right out of the box it is all about sound.about sound.
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#13 User is offline   Jinder 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 08:29 AM

I had a similar issue with a CJ165 I bought new in Ď07. The top developed an indentation exactly the size of a thumb. I took it back and the store agreed that it was a structural issue and let me trade up to a REALLY good Hummingbird Modern Classic as they had no more 165s in stock.

Glad it panned out well for you, PB!
#######
2016 Custom Shop Advanced Jumbo Maple (Ltd to 65)
2015 SJ200 Standard
2014 Custom Shop J180 Everly (Ltd to 65)
2005 Custom Shop Hummingbird 12 String (Ltd to 12)
1990 Hummingbird (Fullerplast and Paddle neck joint. Yuck...My favourite 6 string ever!)
1968 F25
1967 J45
1935 Dobro M32
2017 Epiphone Masterbilt Century Deluxe Archtop
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1998 Fender Classic Series '60s RI Telecaster
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#14 User is offline   62burst 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 02:25 PM

'Having a little trouble understanding- is the larger area of concern on the rim (side) that normally rests on the leg, in the area of the guitar's "waist"?

Along the lines of what BK7 was wondering- does/did the corresponding area inside the guitar show any sign of a mark or impact? If the area is on the side- even though that wood is softened before being bent into shape, there is still some resistance to it no longer being a tree. If any step in the process, from wood selection to curing, or bending, is less than ideal, there can be repercussions, especially if subjected to unusual swings in the weather.

Glad to hear it sounds as though you're on the path to having a good outcome.

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#15 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 10:45 PM

I did look inside and did not see any sort of damage sign. I did not look so far as to see the small, straighter line.

Yes, the section near where it would normally sit on a leg if one was not using a strap.

Extreme weather changes we had, but inside the whole time with unchanged HVAC.
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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#16 User is offline   Jinder 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 03:41 AM

Perhaps it had a small key crack caused by someone who test drove it before you in the store, and the summer conditions made it spread/worsen a little.

Itís great that you lucked in with the replacement-obviously meant to be!
#######
2016 Custom Shop Advanced Jumbo Maple (Ltd to 65)
2015 SJ200 Standard
2014 Custom Shop J180 Everly (Ltd to 65)
2005 Custom Shop Hummingbird 12 String (Ltd to 12)
1990 Hummingbird (Fullerplast and Paddle neck joint. Yuck...My favourite 6 string ever!)
1968 F25
1967 J45
1935 Dobro M32
2017 Epiphone Masterbilt Century Deluxe Archtop
2003 Takamine EAN20C
1998 Fender Classic Series '60s RI Telecaster
1988 Fender Strat Plus

#######
www.jinder.co.uk
www.facebook.com/jindermusic
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#17 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:23 PM

So I get a phone call this afternoon. 3:00 or so. The tech and more senior salesman are in, manager and younger salesman are off. The manager had left a note and had a conversation with the senior salesman. It's the Senior Salesman on the phone. He's asking me what the scoop was, and where the damage was because him and the tech looked the whole thing over.

[scared]

So something that was obvious right away in crappy lighting is all of a sudden invisible? I tell him where to look. Then he says something like, "OK, so what are we supposed to do with this?" Um, like <the manager> said to you - replace the electronics with mine.... Then this guy starts arguing with me. I'm paraphrasing now, but I'm all of a sudden getting lessons about how the tech doesn't work for free and that's not how guitar warranties work.

As much as the latter statement might be correct, this was the solution offered to me right up front. Pick out what you want, and that was that - BY HIS BOSS. And please spare me the whole my tech doesn't work for free stuff. "How do you normally pay him when he does internal facing work". He starts arguing that they can't and have no way to pay him.

At this point I simply said "It sounds like you need to get in touch with <your manager>, then." I've got no clue what's happening right now with it. I hope this salesman isn't causing me any issues. Funny thing, is that it took me a while to warm up to him. He was across the street and had a gruff, almost combative attitude at times. Tune changed at the new place. He was real sweet and everything when I turned the Song-Writer back in after a few days of test drive and got the Bird. Bought the electronics from him a few days later and brought the bird back for installation. I pick it up and he hands me the box the Anthem came in. I looked inside to make sure all the stock electronics are in the box. He sees me looking and tells me that it was just some parts that were not needed for the installation.

What a hoot, and what a load of crap and dishonesty that was. He just made up some dumb line so that I would not complain about something while holding a one week old now $4300 guitar(plus tax and warrantym whatever that was). I was sure to file that one away. And today he sounds like he woke up this morning and was back to work at the place across the street. Would someone mind telling me how I am supposed to buy a Gibson locally? If this doesn't go down well, I'm quite sure I never will again. Two days. I hope the new manager comes through. (he has been there for a little while as a salesman, so not foreign to the company.)

Sorry for the rant. I was at peace about the whole thing until this afternoon. [cursing]
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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#18 User is offline   Murph 

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 04:20 AM

If the Gibson has a Lifetime warranty against defects to the original owner, what kind of a warranty did you buy?

One that covers accidents?

Underwritten by whom?

Would not your homeowners policy already cover that (if you have such a policy) unless you were a gigger?

I don't believe in insurance much and am just kind of curious about such matters.
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#19 User is offline   BluesKing777 

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 04:34 AM

Time to get your money back, my opinion.

I can guess they will be painful, so get a solicitor.

With cash in your hands, open Reverb.com and pick a used model of either the same model you have or even get a 63-65 beauty and get what it needs, now or later.



BluesKing777.
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#20 User is offline   PatriotsBiker 

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 05:36 AM

View PostMurph, on 11 July 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

If the Gibson has a Lifetime warranty against defects to the original owner, what kind of a warranty did you buy?

One that covers accidents?

Underwritten by whom?

Would not your homeowners policy already cover that (if you have such a policy) unless you were a gigger?

I don't believe in insurance much and am just kind of curious about such matters.

That warranty is more like a service plan. They may have even changed it's name to that over the years. It includes:
- X-setups per year. (which I do mostly myself)
- Favorable trade-in terms. (Used once on a guitar I never intended as a serious keeper.)
- They handle the sending and setting up of returns to manufacture for service.
- Some sort of accidental insurance. (I don't know if a 3rd party is involved or not. The store across the street dues use one.)
- Extortion , erm, I mean customer service past day #45.

For me, the last one is the pill I had to swallow. Most of us here remember the days of old when any sort of specialty retail establishments employed professionals in their fields. These folks made decent livings and were part of an industry. As part of that industry, they could and would answer any question with accuracy and authority. If you had a problem with something, you brought it in. They would engage the the manufacture, arrange and facilitate the repairs or shipments back to the manufacture if required and call you up when all was done.

Alas, those days are long gone. Conjecture replaced knowledge, and caveat emptor never had such prominence. Worst of all, on day-46, you were nothing but problem scum. "Did you buy the warranty? No? Too bad. Buh Bye. The number for <brand name> is on the web site. Buh Bye."

Frankly speaking, I do readily admit that I am holding on to an ideal that is long gone. Perhaps I need to adjust to the times. The manufactures of just about anything nowadays specify in writing that you contact them and not the retail location you bought it from. That should say enough.

fwiw - We have one serious guitar shop in town that is not a chain. One. Alas - no Gibson. We do have a few boutique brand dealers, but I'm generally not seasoned enough to know what is a true quality boutique and and what is a decent playing cheapo. We all get to that age where we would prefer our collection be easily liquidated, thinking brand-name, in the even of our passing. Speaking of which, I asked my wife if she would remarry should that happen. She said maybe eventually. I then asked her if she'd let him ride my motorcycle. She said that she would probably have to if she still had it. Then I asked her if she'd let him play my guitars. She said "No, he's left-handed."

:lol: :lol: :lol:
2018 - Gibson SJ-200 Standard
2018 - Gibson Hummingbird Standard
2015 - Taylor 614CE
2013 - Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro(59)
2014 - Epiphone Black Royale P93
2015 - Epiphone ES335 Custom
2005 - Epiphone Les Paul Custom (MIK)
2008 - Fender Tele (MIM) - Modded to Keefocaster
2011 - Fender USA Strat Standard
2012 - Fender USA Telecaster
2009 - PRS SE Paul Allender
2007 - Gretsch 5120 Electromatic
2016 - Fender Jazz Bass (MIM)
Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue
Jet City Amps 20W JCA2112RC
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