Why The "Advanced" in the Advanced Jumbo Guitar

[mking]

I was wondering. When Gibson started making the Jumbo guitars like the J-35, J-45, and J-50, what was the reason for calling the rosewood back and sides dreadnought the Advanced Jumbo? Was it because all the previous jumbo guitars had mahogany back and sides or different bracing that is advanced bracing? Thanks much.

[slimt]

The x bracing on a AJ is moved forward giving more bounce to the top. Advanced bracing.

[jvi]

sales lingo is my thought...

[Red 333]

The x bracing on a AJ is moved forward giving more bounce to the top. Advanced bracing.

 

 

The position of the bracing has nothing to do with it. In sales literature in the thirties, Gibson often used the word "advanced" to describe a fancier model; it was said that the AJ was an "advance" in appointments over its immediate prefecessor, the Jumbo. The Jumbo was the first slope shouldered dreadnaught. After its introduction, it was succeeded by the fancier, more expensive Advanced Jumbo, and the spartan, less expensive J-35.

 

In the thirties, forties, fifties, or sixties, you never see bracing referred to in sales literature. Guitarists would only be aware of bracing once the big manufacturers started to chase the sound of old instruments much later, and turned back to older patterns to recreate the sound of the guitars they were originally found in.

 

Red 333

[mking]

Red 333. Great explanation! Thanks much,

[scriv58]

It seems the o.p. asked the same question last year in this thread

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/140223-the-gibson-advanced-jumbo/

[sbpark]

I have no idea why or where the "advanced" portion of the name comes from, all I know is my AJ is a beast!

 

[scriv58]

Repeat from above post ooopsy

[mking]

I sent an e-mail to George Gruhn and here is the reply I got back.

 

Michael

Yes, advanced is the forward shifted bracing that was added to the guitar.

Thank you for contacting us

Best regards,

[tpbiii]

The position of the bracing has nothing to do with it. In sales literature in the thirties, Gibson often used the word "advanced" to describe a fancier model; it was said that the AJ was an "advance" in appointments over its immediate prefecessor, the Jumbo. The Jumbo was the first slope shouldered dreadnaught. After its introduction, it was succeeded by the fancier, more expensive Advanced Jumbo, and the spartan, less expensive J-35.

 

In the thirties, forties, fifties, or sixties, you never see bracing referred to in sales literature. Guitarists would only be aware of bracing once the big manufacturers started to chase the sound of old instruments much later, and turned back to older patterns to recreate the sound of the guitars they were originally found in.

 

Red 333

 

I think that was a big part of it. 1936 was the middle of the depression, and nobody was doing well. Not many guitars had been sold, but the 14-fret larger body guitars -- starting with the Martin OM (1929) and Dreadnoughts (1934) as well as the Gibson Jumbo (1934) -- had got the attention of musicians. Historically, Gibson had always used mahogany B&S for their top of the line while Martin used rosewood.

 

In late 1936, Gibson made a major marketing and product line move, pretty much across a great majority of their products. They begin (re)naming the models according to their (often reduced) price. Gibson was mainly in the archtop guitar business -- flattops were pretty new for them. Thus you got the L-35, L-50, L-75, and Super-400. They kept the L-4 and L-5 -- top of the line -- designations. They also renamed stuff (with really minor changes) in the banjo area -- TB/PB/RB-3 became TB/PB/RN-75, etc.

 

In the big flattop area, the Jumbo -- the top of the line -- was a relatively new guitar. Like the Martin D-1/D-18 and the D-2/D-28, the Jumbo evolved from earlier (Roy Smeck) large flattop 12-fret (Hawaiian) body.

 

The big bang came in late 1936. As Red said, they dropped the Jumbo and introduced a less fancy (but same specs) model whose internal name was Trojan, but later morphed into Jumbo35 and J-35. The Advanced Jumbo was officially introduced at that time -- it had a long scale, different slightly more tapered sides, wider x-braces, fancy fretboard inlays, and (most importantly) rosewood B&Ss. It is widely believed the rosewood -- which was rare in the Gibson line -- was there to compete with the relatively new Martin top-of-the line D-28 model.

 

The Jumbo35 held it specs for about a year, but then adopted the AJ body shape -- which is the classic shape we now know in the J-35, J-45, J-55, SJ, C&W, and on-and-on -- the Slope Gibsons.

 

Here is a mid thirties family picture -- back: 1936 Trojan/Jumbo35, 1936 Advanced Jumbo, 1935 Jumbo. Front: 1936 Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe, 1935 Roy Smeck Radio Grande (the other big RW Gibson)

 

 

Here they are with there period Martin competition -- Gibson in front, Martins in back.

 

 

Here are some Js from 1935 to 1954.

 

Let's pick,-Tom

[Alex_78]

That was my understanding as well...forward shifted.

 

I heard the current J 35 has the same bracing as the AJ but the sound is completely different.

[BigKahune]

It seems the o.p. asked the same question last year in this thread

http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/140223-the-gibson-advanced-jumbo/

 

Yep. Curious this topic came up again from the same op. This was all discussed last year. I mentioned Guhun's in that discussion, and I'm sure the builders new what they were doing: "forward shifted" (advanced) x-bracing. Whether or not that had anything to do with the naming is another question, given "catch words" have always been so popular in advertising - but now I'll agree with Gruhn's take on it. . B)

 

 

.

[Dave F]

I thought you had to be an advanced player to handle the guitar.

Thus I do not own one ;)

[tpbiii]

Yep. Curious this topic came up again from the same op. This was all discussed last year. I mentioned Guhun's in that discussion, and I'm sure the builders new what they were doing: "forward shifted" (advanced) x-bracing. Whether or not that had anything to do with the naming is another question, given "catch words" have always been so popular in advertising - but now I'll agree with Gruhn's take on it. . B)

 

 

.

 

I would never use that terminology to describe the original AJ bracing. That terminology comes from the Martin world, and it clearly applies there. What Martin did in in mid 1938 was to shift the x-brace back about a inch. But the whole x-brace system just moved -- nothing else changed. In particular the x-brace angle did not change.

In the Advance Jumbo, the bracing x-braced pattern changed. In particular, the braces were more spread out -- a greater angle at the juncture. There is really no earlier reference for this kind of pattern -- if you overlay bracing patterns, they are not shifted versions of one another.

I have some x-rays I'll put up when I get time.

Best,

-Tom

[Red 333]

That was my understanding as well...forward shifted.

 

I heard the current J 35 has the same bracing as the AJ but the sound is completely different.

 

I'll eat my AJ if you can find any Gibson or other manufacturer's literature talking about bracing positions back then. There may be instances where they mentioned transverse bracing on an archtop or x bracing in general, but nothing so specific about location or its intended effect on sound that I've ever read. On the other hand, I've read more than a few Gibson catalog descriptions where they talk about one model being an advance over another due to the level of appointment or ornamentation. Besides, what position would the AJ's x-brace be an advance over? Only the Jumbo proceeded it. The J-45 had not been released yet. It's x-brace gradually was moved forward from the AJ's as it evolved from the J-35. It's that position that people say is forward shifted (and narrowed in angle from the AJ). And as Tom points out, that's really fairly recent terminology carried over from the Martin world once they began making close repros of their early and highly desired models. Like from the '80s, maybe. But certainly not from the '30s or '40s.

 

Red 333

[Red 333]

 

I heard the current J 35 has the same bracing as the AJ but the sound is completely different.

 

Yes, but in addition to different tonewoods, the modern (Ren Fergusun designed) AJ has different back bracing from the modern J-35 Standard. The modern AJ has very thick and very low rounded back braces with a lot of mass. The modern J-35 Standard's bracing are thinner, higher, and have less mass.

 

Recent models of Special Edition J-35s do have those low, thick, and rounded back braces, which is why they sound so significantly different from the Standard versions.

 

Vintage J-35s (I have photographed dozens of them) have them both ways, as well as several variations of the top bracing!

 

Red 333

[tpbiii]

I'll eat my AJ if you can find any Gibson or other manufacturer's literature talking about bracing positions back then. There may be instances where they mentioned transverse bracing on an archtop or x bracing in general, but nothing so specific about location or its intended effect on sound that I've ever read. On the other hand, I've read more than a few Gibson catalog descriptions where they talk about one model being an advance over another due to the level of appointment or ornamentation. Besides, what position would the AJ's x-brace be an advance over? Only the Jumbo proceeded it. The J-45 had not been released yet. It's x-brace gradually was moved forward from the AJ's as it evolved from the J-35. It's that position that people say is forward shifted (and narrowed in angle from the AJ). And as Tom points out, that's really fairly recent terminology carried over from the Martin world once they began making close repros of their early and highly desired models. Like from the '80s, maybe. But certainly not from the '30s or '40s.

 

Red 333

 

Indeed!

I made this photo of 3 1936 Js overlaid bracing patterns. RSSD, Trojan, AJ. You can clearly see the angle difference in the, but essentially nothing you can call a position shift.

 

Best,

-Tom

 

[Red 333]

 

In the Advance Jumbo, the bracing x-braced pattern changed. In particular, the braces were more spread out -- a greater angle at the juncture. There is really no earlier reference for this kind of pattern -- if you overlay bracing patterns, they are not shifted versions of one another.

I have some x-rays I'll put up when I get time.

Best,

-Tom

 

Isn't it more accurate to say the J-45's bracing position and angle changed relative to the AJ's?

 

Red 333

[Red 333]

Isn't it more accurate to say the J-45's bracing position and angle changed relative to the AJ's?

 

Red 333

 

Thanks for the great x-ray overlay, Bill. You posted that as I was writing this! How cool!

 

Red 333

[Red 333]

Indeed!

I made this photo of 3 1936 Js overlaid bracing patterns. RSSD, Trojan, AJ. You can clearly see the angle difference in the, but essentially nothing you can call a position shift.

 

Best,

-Tom

 

And I think some variation in angle and position in these very early models had to do with how they were made and who in the factory made them, no?

 

Reed 333

[philfish]

Nice info Red and Tpbiii

Then there is my 2011 45tv that has AJ bracing and thinner and higher back braces

This is a great guitar must be a hybrid

[Alex_78]

Yes, but in addition to different tonewoods, the modern (Ren Fergusun designed) AJ has different back bracing from the modern J-35 Standard. The modern AJ has very thick and very low rounded back braces with a lot of mass. The modern J-35 Standard's bracing are thinner, higher, and have less mass.

 

Recent models of Special Edition J-35s do have those low, thick, and rounded back braces, which is why they sound so significantly different from the Standard versions.

 

Vintage J-35s (I have photographed dozens of them) have them both ways, as well as several variations of the top bracing!

 

Red 333

 

I tried a J35 Bozeman anniversary and I was completely unimpressed.

[Red 333]

Nice info Red and Tpbiii

Then there is my 2011 45tv that has AJ bracing and thinner and higher back braces

This is a great guitar must be a hybrid

 

That's how my 2008(?) is. It's great sounding. The TV back bracing, though taller and thinner than the AJ back bracing, is different from the back braces on the J-35 Standard, which are the same as the J-45 Standard if memory serves.

 

I also have a Southern Jumbo True Vintage from maybe 2010. You'd think it would be build exactly like the J-45 True Vintage but its back braces are different from that!

 

Red 333

[Red 333]

I tried a J35 Bozeman anniversary and I was completely unimpressed.

 

Guitars are like snowflakes...

 

I have a Fuller's Vintage 1939 J-35 Reissue from 2006 (maybe), with the AJ back bracing and an Adirondack top. It's very high on my list of favorites, which includes my J-45 Legend and my 12-fret Stage Deluxe Rosewood. If there was a fire I'd grab it and the Legend.

 

Red 333

[Murph]

Those x-rays always creep me out....