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Gibson les paul , les buzz with no reliefe??


Gino753

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Hi guys

 

I did a factory setup, on both of ny Gibson les pauls, one is a 2017 Tradirional, and the other is a 2016 Standard.I had both guitars setup with 9 guage strings,and 5/64 string hieght on the low E, and 3/64 on the high E, and .10-.12 thousandths relief at the 12th fret, capoing the 1st fret and holding down the last fret.i went to play the guitar,and none of the notes choked,and the guitar played nice,but bar chords would buzz like crazy.I then took Dan erlwins advice in actually basically flattening the neck to .006 relief,and the guitar has lost most all buzz ??? Is this normal?? I assume i do have a good fret job,where i kept reading that this buzz was a sighn of uneven frets? I checked the frets and they are pretty level.Can somone please help me understand this? Basically where i figured that more relief would reduce the buzzing, since im pulling the strings away from the neck...i actually lost my buzz by bringing the strings closer? So my fret job is good ?

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You're better off with as little relief as you can get and still get a good setup. The thickness of a sheet of paper is good. I remember Erlewine saying that once in a video I watched. He seems to think that the more the wood in the neck is in compression, the more lively the guitar will be. So he's a fan of having very low or almost no relief.

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So far i was able to get ridbof relief completley.I capo the first fret,and then fret then fretted the last fret.I measured the relief at the 7th fret and the string is completley touching the fret,and the guitar plays with no dead notes.Every note rings clean.Its just the G string and low E that has some buzz on the first fret.What do you make of this? Is my nut cut wrong on those strings,and should i fix them?

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Hi guys

 

I did a factory setup, on both of ny Gibson les pauls, one is a 2017 Tradirional, and the other is a 2016 Standard.I had both guitars setup with 9 guage strings,and 5/64 string hieght on the low E, and 3/64 on the high E, and .10-.12 thousandths relief at the 12th fret, capoing the 1st fret and holding down the last fret.i went to play the guitar,and none of the notes choked,and the guitar played nice,but bar chords would buzz like crazy.I then took Dan erlwins advice in actually basically flattening the neck to .006 relief,and the guitar has lost most all buzz ??? Is this normal?? I assume i do have a good fret job,where i kept reading that this buzz was a sighn of uneven frets? I checked the frets and they are pretty level.Can somone please help me understand this? Basically where i figured that more relief would reduce the buzzing, since im pulling the strings away from the neck...i actually lost my buzz by bringing the strings closer? So my fret job is good ?

 

GGOD NEWS, YOUR GUITAR IS FINE !!! IDK WHY a lot of player's think their GIBSON Guitars should have .010-.012" Neck Relief....IT IS NOT TRUE !!! ...005"-.007" is where GIBSONS perform @ their best. I would even say lower than that but the NUT on the Guitar would have to be CUT by a Jeweler to get the Guitar to play with no dead-spots/exact.......

 

You can set the relief without any Tools or Gauges TOO ! and all you need is a CAPO, LIKE THIS:.Place Capo directly on top of the 2ND Fret. Press down on the LOW 'E' @ the 16TH Fret (where Neck joins body on a Les Paul). Check the String Clearance near the 9TH Fret.....The Low 'E' string should be clearing the 9TH Fret by just a 'HAIR'.......and YOU ARE DONE.....or if this simple cost effective method doesn't suit you...... get a Notched Straight-edge and a set of feeler gauges......(you will see that the method just mentioned will get you a Notched-Straightedge measurement @ or near .005" @ 7TH Fret)

 

.010"-.012" Neck Relief is TOO MUCH RELIEF FOR GIBSON ELECTRIC's IMO, they play badly at that measurement !

 

KEEP ROCKIN' !!!

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I don't think you can "measure" the right relief for "you" as much of what is needed has to do with your attack, and playing style. It's something you just have to feel your way around. the measurement is a good ball park, but from there, you need to find your sweet spot.

 

 

If you are noticing buzzing on the first frets, that is usually one of two things

 

1: you have a slight back bow (not enough relief on the trus rod) go 1/4 counter clockwise and that may be enough.

2: the nut slots possibly cut too low. Get a feeler Auto Gauge and see if the nut slots for the other strings compare with the ones that are buzzing.

 

The only way to check your that all your frets are level is with a tool that is made to span up to three frets. something like this: fret leveling check tool

 

With this tool as you go up the neck, you will see where your high frets are... it's possible there are some high frets, nothing is ever 100% perfect.. and worth the check so you know.

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Hi guys, my frets are all perefectly level, accept, my fret rocker rocks a tiny bit, on maby 2 frets at the neck joint.I think i can just get that Stewart mcdonald fret kisser and spot level those two frets.

 

The other thing is, if i strum my G string open, the string rings out, followed by a scitar type buzz, the other string that does that is the low E of course, but i can raise the action a bit.However yes, there are 2 slots in my nut cut just a little deep, like a couple thousandths, but low enough to cause a buzz.Since i have my neck dead flat and all the other strings ring out clean, how can i fix these slots?? I will not (Cut) the nut out of the guitar...i wish the nut on my les pauls were installed like my Fender strats in that they just pop out,but there not...

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I don't think you can "measure" the right relief for "you" as much of what is needed has to do with your attack, and playing style. It's something you just have to feel your way around. the measurement is a good ball park, but from there, you need to find your sweet spot.

 

 

If you are noticing buzzing on the first frets, that is usually one of two things

 

1: you have a slight back bow (not enough relief on the trus rod) go 1/4 counter clockwise and that may be enough.

2: the nut slots possibly cut too low. Get a feeler Auto Gauge and see if the nut slots for the other strings compare with the ones that are buzzing.

 

The only way to check your that all your frets are level is with a tool that is made to span up to three frets. something like this: fret leveling check tool

 

With this tool as you go up the neck, you will see where your high frets are... it's possible there are some high frets, nothing is ever 100% perfect.. and worth the check so you know.

 

Excellent post. I am generally a proponent of measurements during setup, but neck relief is the one thing I've never measured. Based on what I've read here, I may like a little more relief than most, but then I don't know for sure because I haven't measured it.

 

I agree completely about the open string buzzing. In this case, I'd bet that it's a neck relief issue only because the guitars in question are both relatively new Gibson's which means they are PLEK'd (the PLEK machine cuts the nut too) so it's unlikely that the nuts are improperly cut or worn on these fairly new guitars. Although, I will say that the Custom Shop's PLEK machine (I'm assuming they have their own) does cut the nuts pretty low, so that does require just a touch more relief.

 

 

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Hi guys, my frets are all perefectly level, accept, my fret rocker rocks a tiny bit, on maby 2 frets at the neck joint.I think i can just get that Stewart mcdonald fret kisser and spot level those two frets.

 

The other thing is, if i strum my G string open, the string rings out, followed by a scitar type buzz, the other string that does that is the low E of course, but i can raise the action a bit.However yes, there are 2 slots in my nut cut just a little deep, like a couple thousandths, but low enough to cause a buzz.Since i have my neck dead flat and all the other strings ring out clean, how can i fix these slots?? I will not (Cut) the nut out of the guitar...i wish the nut on my les pauls were installed like my Fender strats in that they just pop out,but there not...

 

You could fill and re-file the slots in question with the so called "super glue technique", or you could put a touch of relief in the neck.

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Well it seems to be just the G string that once strummed will end with a light metallic (Scitar) sound. I measured on the first fret to the bottom of the string and compared my measurements to the factory measurement,and the slots are all pretty much there but like half a 16th lower.also i checked all my frets and they are all level with 2 slightly high frets at the neck body joint

 

So far i have the neck completley flat, no relief and the guitar still plays, no choking, and just the G string open buzz.....my action with a dead flat neck is almost 5/64 bass side, and about 4/64 high side...whatdo you think

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Well it seems to be just the G string that once strummed will end with a light metallic (Scitar) sound. I measured on the first fret to the bottom of the string and compared my measurements to the factory measurement,and the slots are all pretty much there but like half a 16th lower.also i checked all my frets and they are all level with 2 slightly high frets at the neck body joint

 

So far i have the neck completley flat, no relief and the guitar still plays, no choking, and just the G string open buzz.....my action with a dead flat neck is almost 5/64 bass side, and about 4/64 high side...whatdo you think

 

Hi Gino753,

I know what you are talking about when you refer to that sitar sound on an open string... I used to have this happen with my guitars that had Floyd Rose bridges. The remedy I had for these is to make sure that the nut slot is cleanly cut/filed so the string doesn't have any play when seated in the slot. That is the reason for this sound. Your nut slot is probably not snugging the string nicely. If you have too low of a slot, then you have 3 options:

1) Shim the nut2) Superglue-Baking Soda "trick"3) Replace nut

Basically the reason you get the buzz is because at one end or another (from nut to bridge), your string is not seated well when it starts to vibrate. Being that you only hear this when you have open string, the issue is in the nut. If you have to cut a nut out of a Gibson, it's not that big of a deal... It's better to have a guitar that plays well than a nice looking guitar that can't be played...

 

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Well it seems to be just the G string that once strummed will end with a light metallic (Scitar) sound. I measured on the first fret to the bottom of the string and compared my measurements to the factory measurement,and the slots are all pretty much there but like half a 16th lower.also i checked all my frets and they are all level with 2 slightly high frets at the neck body joint

 

So far i have the neck completley flat, no relief and the guitar still plays, no choking, and just the G string open buzz.....my action with a dead flat neck is almost 5/64 bass side, and about 4/64 high side...whatdo you think

 

I think that like most guitar players you think that having your strings laying down at the 12th like that is doing something for you. It is only making it harder to play, harder to intonate with your fingers, almost impossible to hit it even remotely vigorously without it fretting out all over the place. As you play it, if you play it, you'll wear the frets in particular places and with only a little bit of wear they will start causing you fret outs above them, which will drive you back in to the lab, measuring and adjusting for months on end.

 

In short, you are way over thinking it and relying on "specs". Practice, learn to play guitars that aren't set up with one gamillionth of an inch at the 12th, learn to get around on any neck. It will do you far more good than having the only guitar in the world you can play.

 

That's my experience.

 

rct

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Hi Gino753,

I know what you are talking about when you refer to that sitar sound on an open string... ...The remedy I had for these is to make sure that the nut slot is cleanly cut/filed so the string doesn't have any play when seated in the slot. That is the reason for this sound. Your nut slot is probably not snugging the string nicely.

 

 

NHC makes a good point. If the sound you're getting is not a fret buzz, then it could be the sting not seated well in the nut due to dirt/debris or even some nut material that is around the string as it comes off the nut.

 

 

 

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Ok ive heard about shimmjng the nut quite a bit.My question is that, if someone is simply trying to fix, a nut slot that was cut a little too deep...why would you permanently mod the guitar by gluing a shim under the nut too the nut slot??

 

I understand that removing the nut,is an easy job, but if you knew how i am with my guitars, i cant bare to cut the paint around the nut,to remove it...if i was going to take that rout, i would do it myself.i wouldnt let Dan Erlwin even do that to my les pauls...did you ever see the movie (This is Spinal Tap)?? The famous guitar show room seen? Well dont even point at it!! Youve seen enough of that one...HAHAHA...im Nigel.All levity aside...i just check the nut on my 2016 Gibson les paul standard,and the measurements of the nut are about the same as my 2017 Traditional, but my standard has no open buzz on any string..Oh and the traditional is 1st fret buzz on the G string

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Ok ive heard about shimmjng the nut quite a bit.My question is that, if someone is simply trying to fix, a nut slot that was cut a little too deep...why would you permanently mod the guitar by gluing a shim under the nut too the nut slot??

 

I understand that removing the nut,is an easy job, but if you knew how i am with my guitars, i cant bare to cut the paint around the nut,to remove it...if i was going to take that rout, i would do it myself.i wouldnt let Dan Erlwin even do that to my les pauls...did you ever see the movie (This is Spinal Tap)?? The famous guitar show room seen? Well dont even point at it!! Youve seen enough of that one...HAHAHA...im Nigel

 

Hi Gino,

Yeah, I understand that, and the fact that you are talking about a Gibson here... First off, when you shim the nut, you shouldn't glue the thing in with a ton of glue - and you would want to use wood glue that can easily be removed... Yeah, no one should booger this nut shelf up... Only a drop of wood glue should be necessary.

 

Bottom line, a nut is a maintenance item for a guitar that is regularly played - like brakes on a car have you. It will eventually wear a little bit - no stopping that. Well what will you do with a guitar that has bad "nut action"? The only option you really have then if you don't want to remove the nut, and to get the "action" you need to stop the buzzing on the fret if indeed your nut slot is too deep, then you have the superglue-baking soda option really. Also should have a PROPERLY SIZED nut file to re-cut the groove as you aren't going to fill this in and have a perfect slot...

 

You have to identify if you have too low a slot with a feeler gauge first on the first fret and string under measurement resting - somewhere around 0.008" on the low side, and somewhere around 0.012" on the high side is what I shoot for. I can eye it out when I simply depress the 3rd fret and I can see the string is not touching the 1st fret just barely. If you are getting a sitar sound, as I mentioned, your slot may need clearing to snug the string (only a portion of it of course - not smothered by the walls of the groove), but then again, this requires taking material away to some extent... You may have one or both issues to deal with.

 

It may be time for a new nut... I suggest that if you can just get over the fact that your Gibson will have a replaced nut and get a nice bone one cut so your guitar plays well, it will make others much happier as you guitar will stop sounding like crap when you play an open G string, haha! You'll kill 2 birds with one stone IMHO. All your issues you have described are characteristic of issues with the nut. Not frets, relief, etc. I am trying to be as concise as possible here because in the end there are only 2 ways to do things - the right way and the wrong way. I wish you best of luck and don't hesitate to ask questions.

 

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I just tested both my les pauls, by fretting them at the 3RD fret and checking for clearence between the top ,of the first fret and bottom of each string,and each string is just clearing, i can just push each string down at tye first fret

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I just tested both my les pauls, by fretting them at the 3RD fret and checking for clearence between the top ,of the first fret and bottom of each string,and each string is just clearing, i can just push each string down at tye first fret

Well that’s a good thing... if your only issue is the G string sitar sound, and it happens only on open string, then your issues are with that string’s slot. Take a closer look and make sure it is not allowing the string any play other wise you are probably going to have to fill it and re-file to get the height correct. Good news though... anyhow keep us posted and hopefully your issues become resolved. Thanks!

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I will thank you very much guys,one more thing though, while i am able to completley streighten the necks on both of my Gibson les pauls,and the guitars as mentioned still play with no choking or buzzing, minus that one string on that one guitar.I found however that i cant however, really lower the action under gibson specs, i mean on the Bass E side i can go to 4/64 instead of Gibson factory measurement of 5/64.However on the High E side, i seem to need to raise the action to at least the factory measurement of 3/64, or a touch higher to prevent choking on high notes,any answers please?

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I will thank you very much guys,one more thing though, while i am able to completley streighten the necks on both of my Gibson les pauls,and the guitars as mentioned still play with no choking or buzzing, minus that one string on that one guitar.I found however that i cant however, really lower the action under gibson specs, i mean on the Bass E side i can go to 4/64 instead of Gibson factory measurement of 5/64.However on the High E side, i seem to need to raise the action to at least the factory measurement of 3/64, or a touch higher to prevent choking on high notes,any answers please?

 

Hi Gino,

 

Sometimes, a luthier will take the higher frets down a tad bit more than the rest of the frets in the neck - that are affected by the truss rod more than the neck area in the neck pocket region. This will usually be the case to take a bit of material off these higher frets to make the playability improve. I mean it's good that you can have near factory spec and not choke out... My LP Custom is the same way; I cannot go any lower than the 3/64 on the string height on my high E. That's just the way the guitar came and I accepted it as I can play with this just fine. But that's me... Others may like something different, and that's OK. I mean the facts are in this situation typically that when something chokes out playing higher frets, it is making contact with another fret higher up the scale. The only way to compensate is to take the frets down a little bit to make it more adaptable to one's playing style. Man, is there so much to look at with these guitars, haha! Good luck as always and best regards!

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I will thank you very much guys,one more thing though, while i am able to completley streighten the necks on both of my Gibson les pauls,and the guitars as mentioned still play with no choking or buzzing, minus that one string on that one guitar.I found however that i cant however, really lower the action under gibson specs, i mean on the Bass E side i can go to 4/64 instead of Gibson factory measurement of 5/64.However on the High E side, i seem to need to raise the action to at least the factory measurement of 3/64, or a touch higher to prevent choking on high notes,any answers please?

 

The bridge follows the radius.

 

The radius causes a rise towards the center of the neck.

 

Bending the B string at the 8th fret causes it to move to the center of the fingerboard. As it moves to the center, if it was too low to begin with, it touches the fret at 15, or 17, or 11 maybe.

 

It does that because "specs" and tolerances do not take into account how hard you hit the string or how new or not new it is, therefore how much it moves as it vibrates. That movement causes it to fret out, touch frets it shouldn't.

 

If guitars were meant to just have strings down as low as possible they all would, they'd just be laying down by the frets. They aren't supposed to have that, that's why they don't. When someone came up with "specs" in the late 90's, they were trying to tell customers that wanted to tweak stuff what to do. But actually playing the guitar is number one, very personal, and number two, defies anything you can possibly call a "spec".

 

It's the way it is.

 

Practice buddy, practice and play as many different guitars as you can, and very soon you will not care much at all about how high the strings are.

 

rct

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The bridge follows the radius.

 

The radius causes a rise towards the center of the neck.

 

Bending the B string at the 8th fret causes it to move to the center of the fingerboard. As it moves to the center, if it was too low to begin with, it touches the fret at 15, or 17, or 11 maybe.

 

It does that because "specs" and tolerances do not take into account how hard you hit the string or how new or not new it is, therefore how much it moves as it vibrates. That movement causes it to fret out, touch frets it shouldn't.

 

If guitars were meant to just have strings down as low as possible they all would, they'd just be laying down by the frets. They aren't supposed to have that, that's why they don't. When someone came up with "specs" in the late 90's, they were trying to tell customers that wanted to tweak stuff what to do. But actually playing the guitar is number one, very personal, and number two, defies anything you can possibly call a "spec".

 

It's the way it is.

 

Practice buddy, practice and play as many different guitars as you can, and very soon you will not care much at all about how high the strings are.

 

rct

 

Yeah, I was going to mention about the radius coming into play when you bend strings, but there was no mention of bending strings and getting chokes by Gino (the OP). He was simply saying that notes were choking when the action was lowered where a guitar will - especially a Gibson - start choking when the action for that particular guitar IS too low for the way it is constructed. A player can have easier to fret, higher register notes if the action is adjusted as such and have the higher frets slightly taken down a bit in this area of the fretboard It is not uncommon to do this.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said though... definitely have encountered chokes when bending notes at certain spots on certain guitars. And it happens for exactly the reason you have provided. But in the end, setting up a guitar is something that takes time - and with a particular guitar - to make comfortable. Some players are more touchy to certain intricacies of their guitar's playability, some don't care as much...

 

Regarding specs, I tend to work with the manufacturer to agree with their default setup to baseline, then deviate from there as necessary - and allowable. Sometimes, there's a certain guitar that just won't take a particular setting because of its construction limitations. In that case, someone has a guitar they won't end up enjoy playing, and that sucks. Nonetheless, if the guitar is set up like it is supposed to be from the factory, and I can guarantee level frets, neck relief per the factory default, then it shouldn't be doing stupid stuff. If it does, then there's something not right, but in the end, guitars are pretty simple things mechanically speaking, so you just have to spend time figuring out where buzzes and the unwanted sounds come from. It NEVER ends, haha! But no, in the end, if you are a player, you will overcome the s... that comes out of an inherently imperfect instrument. I have empathy for those breaking in a guitar they really want to work whether it be intonation, buzzes, you name it. I wish no ill will on any aspiring guitar player. That's why I feel it necessary to share my experience and take it for what it's worth. As always, best regards - and Happy Holidays!

 

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Bro, Specs are used as a guideline....and they are usually pretty accurate ! For example, if you capo the 2nd fret, then Fret the Low 'E' @ the 16TH Fret and adjust the Truss Rod to where the Low 'E' is just clearing the 7Th-8TH-9TH Frets by a "HAIR", you are going to come out with a Neck relief @ or damn near .005" whether you measure it or not. .005-006" is what I set all of my GIBSON Electric's at........ and they PLAY GREAT, every frikkin' time....BUT I usually use a Notched-Straightedge and Feeler Gauges. The tools & 'SPECS' aren't necessary and whether or not I use the 'SPEC' sheet measurement or just eyeball it, when it comes to the Neck Relief measurement...my Guitars are going to play best @ or near .005" set by eye or by "SPEC"....and when it comes to string height, how much further away from the GIBSON "SPEC' do you really think you are going to go and still be able to play the Guitar ? We are talking Thousandths of an inch ( 4/64THs =.063")....My point is, if you want to use tools, or if you just want to 'EYEBALL' it or it do it by 'FEEL' or whatever you want to call it, you are not going to end up too far away from the published "SPECS" of the Guitar manufacturer (in this case GIBSON USA) anyway....so above all....HAVE A GOOD TIME AND PLAY......

KEEP ROCKIN

 

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You're better off with as little relief as you can get and still get a good setup. The thickness of a sheet of paper is good. I remember Erlewine saying that once in a video I watched. He seems to think that the more the wood in the neck is in compression, the more lively the guitar will be. So he's a fan of having very low or almost no relief.

 

I think I read an interview with him, or a quote attributed to him, where he said that if the fretwork is good, you shouldn't actually have to put relief in (although no backbow, of course). My PLEKed guitars play fine with no relief (i.e., no buzz).

 

Then there's the matter of what FEELS best. My V feels just right with a straight neck, whereas I like quite a bit of relief in my LP. The relief I put into my LP... If I put that into my V, I'd consider it unplayable.

 

I've had other Gibson Vs that played best with quite a lot of relief. Go figure.

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