tpbiii Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 New (old) guitar day here yesterday. Another 1950 J-45, FON 3358 5, as opposed to 3644 8 for my other one, so they're pretty close together in the production line. I bought it from the original owner, who is in his 80's now. He bought it new when he was 14, from Dusi Music in Youngstown, OH. It is in very good condition, albeit with cosmetic bumps and bruises. Will need a few repairs, such as a couple of braces re-glued. Neck angle is OK, but by modern standards, it is getting into re-set territory soon. We'll see what it actually looks like when I get new strings on it. Scalloped top braces (not nearly as elegantly done as on new Gibsons), small bridgeplate, popsicle stick vertical side stays (rather than the earlier fabric ones, which ended about 1947 or so), tall thin back braces. Dark sunburst, as seen on some modern "vintage" Gibson re-issues such as the Legend series. Wonderful late-40's to early 50's full C neck profile, dead-straight neck with no hump. Very little fret wear or board wear. It has essentially not been played since the late 1950's, and has been under the bed in the original Gibson-branded brown pressboard case, which was typically sold with a J-45 in that period. It is completely original and un-molested, down to the shrunken tuner buttons and equally-shrunken black plastic (celluloid?) bridge pins. I now have three variations on the Gibson hog slope-J: a Fuller's 1943 SJ re-issue, the 1950 J-45 I bought in 1966 (re-topped by Gibson in 1968, and much modified over the 50+ years I have owned it), and this new baby. The comparisons will be interesting. I know, pictures or it didn't happen. Haven't posted a picture since Photobucket became useless, so I have to find a new hosting site. This is gonna be fun. I think I'm in love...again. Hi Nick, Interesting guitar for sure. I have wanted to respond to this thread for several days, but I just have not had enough time. There are a number of aspects of this that I find interesting for different reasons. I am very interested in the evolution of the Gibson slopes and the period 1942 up until 1954 is a very important period (IMHO) for Gibson tone. I am much more likely to classify guitars by tone rather than by features, but of course they are correlated. I think the relatively substantive change in tone around 1955 probably can be related to the scalloping of the braces and perhaps the lamination of the sides, but I think the devil is in the details -- and there are too many really quantify completely IMO. We have no Gibson slopes from around 1950. We do have several from 1943-1945 and a couple (52 J-45 and 54 SJ) from the early 50s. Also, one of our banners is a 1943 SJ -- baseball bat neck and all. I'd love to see a picture of the braces on all three of your guitars. Here are some for reference. 1943 J-45 1952 J-45 There is some obvious evolution here, but it is pretty subtle. To me, the 43 is stronger than the 52 and tonally different -- but both are still strong by wartime and post war Gibson standards, and both have cool -- but different -- tone. I'd love to get yours in the same room -- i might well learn something. The other thing that interests me is your Fuller SJ. This is for entirely different reasons. In the past year, we have completed a partial move to Houston and in the process have become friends with Mike Fuller. Here is picture i took of him playing with his bluegrass band in December -- last show at the Hickory Hollow before it closed. The guitar he is playing is a 96 AJ with a wide neck -- I got to play it for about half an hour. A fine (and unique) guitar. One of the guitars we took to live in Texas is our 43 SJ. I did that because banners are highly valued in Texas fiddle bands. This would enhance our optics in Texas -- pitiful but true. I got to talk with Mike about his long relations with Gibson and his agenda to bring back great modern copies of vintage guitars through Gibson custom orders. My obvious interest here is how your Fuller 43 SJ compares with ours. Ours has a large neck and no truss rod. It would be interesting to compare yours to ours. Here are a couple of pictures. I wish you all the joy of your new guitar and Happy New Year. All the best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Tom, I do have to get me one of those mirrors! I was changing strings on the J45 and took a picture of the bracing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 StewMac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 I just ordered one of those big three-piece mirrors from Stewmac, and will take pictures when it arrives. I did take some poor pictures with my iPhone, and the top bracing on the "new" 1950 is similar to the two you posted, but not identical to either in every detail. This may be a significant source of some of the differences we hear in vintage Gibsons. Every piece of wood is different from guitar to guitar, especially the soundboards. It seems pretty clear that after sawing out on a table saw (the unmistakable marks are there on all the braces, both top and back), the braces are hand-scalloped, maybe with just a carving knife, and maybe with nothing more than a rough template or even just a general guideline to how they should be. At least in this "new" guitar, they are fairly crudely scalloped, with no attempt to clean up rough edges. In one case, it looks like the very top of one of the brace "peaks" broke off, and was glued back on, presumably while the top was still on the bench, given the direction of the associated glue drips. It makes you think that the scalloping may have been done after the braces were glued to the top, rather than before. In the Fuller's SJ, on the other hand, the bracing is elegantly and consistently scalloped and tapered in section, as well as sanded, which I assume is typical of modern Bozeman-built Gibsons. There is no muslin glued across the x-brace joint on the Fuller's SJ, as there is on my L-OO Legend, the "new" 1950 J-45, and the "old" 1950 J-45 with the 1968 top. Until I get the big mirror like yours, it's hard to get a complete picture of the differences in bracing layout, if any. It would be handy if you could give us the techniques you used for those almost full-top bracing photos, including lighting and camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Hah! This reminds me that my J50 bridge bolts need to be swapped out. Someone down the line replaced them with wood screws, something I discovered by running my hand in there. I keep getting the urge to buy the overpriced rect bridge from Umanov and slap that on, as I dislike the belly up. I think I'd be kicked out of the forum if I took off an original part and swapped out. https://reverb.com/item/14669325-gibson-l-00-bridge-w-saddle-1930s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Tom, I just noticed that the bridge on your 1952 doesn't have through-bolts. Is that original? I don't know when Gibson stopped using them, or when they started for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Hah! This reminds me that my J50 bridge bolts need to be swapped out. Someone down the line replaced them with wood screws, something I discovered by running my hand in there. I keep getting the urge to buy the overpriced rect bridge from Umanov and slap that on, as I dislike the belly up. I think I'd be kicked out of the forum if I took off an original part and swapped out. https://reverb.com/item/14669325-gibson-l-00-bridge-w-saddle-1930s I wonder if that's really a 1930's L-OO bridge on the Umanov site, with that 2 1/8 pin spacing and with the end bolts. My L-OO Legend, supposedly an exact 1937 copy, has no end bolts, 2 3/8" pin spacing, and tapers in height from bass side to treble. The bridge on my "new" 1950 has 2 3/16" pin spacing. Measured it a couple of times to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 I just ordered one of those big three-piece mirrors from Stewmac, and will take pictures when it arrives. I did take some poor pictures with my iPhone, and the top bracing on the "new" 1950 is similar to the two you posted, but not identical to either in every detail. This may be a significant source of some of the differences we hear in vintage Gibsons. Every piece of wood is different from guitar to guitar, especially the soundboards. It seems pretty clear that after sawing out on a table saw (the unmistakable marks are there on all the braces, both top and back), the braces are hand-scalloped, maybe with just a carving knife, and maybe with nothing more than a rough template or even just a general guideline to how they should be. At least in this "new" guitar, they are fairly crudely scalloped, with no attempt to clean up rough edges. In one case, it looks like the very top of one of the brace "peaks" broke off, and was glued back on, presumably while the top was still on the bench, given the direction of the associated glue drips. It makes you think that the scalloping may have been done after the braces were glued to the top, rather than before. In the Fuller's SJ, on the other hand, the bracing is elegantly and consistently scalloped and tapered in section, as well as sanded, which I assume is typical of modern Bozeman-built Gibsons. There is no muslin glued across the x-brace joint on the Fuller's SJ, as there is on my L-OO Legend, the "new" 1950 J-45, and the "old" 1950 J-45 with the 1968 top. Until I get the big mirror like yours, it's hard to get a complete picture of the differences in bracing layout, if any. It would be handy if you could give us the techniques you used for those almost full-top bracing photos, including lighting and camera. Her are a few pictures. Mirror Spread out Mirror from the back combined using duck tape and as bought from StewMac This is what I use to light the inside. The mirror goes below the braces and the light is placed by the neck block. Make sure the light does not overhead the guitar. Here is the guitar table with the 54 SJ on it. Here is the Camera -- Canon EOS SLR This allows the picture to be carefully framed and focused. Best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Tom's workin' hard. Good job!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 For those who are interested, here is the green screen and photo lights in the room also used for the high resolution guitar pictures and videos using the acoustic recording setup. Best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Tom, I just noticed that the bridge on your 1952 doesn't have through-bolts. Is that original? I don't know when Gibson stopped using them, or when they started for that matter. Probably not. The guitar was a rescue -- Randy Wood had to take off the back because someone had poured glue into the guitar. After that was laboriously removed, the guitar seemed original -- I guess they were trying to fix loose braces. Go figure. Here are its pictures. Best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Outstanding! That's some Cowboy country you're into, right there! Very pleased that you have ownership of that one. Comes to you at a very appropriate time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Congrats Brother. Enjoy the heck out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Probably not. The guitar was a rescue -- Randy Wood had to take off the back because someone had poured glue into the guitar. After that was laboriously removed, the guitar seemed original -- I guess they were trying to fix loose braces. Go figure. Best, -Tom I ran into the same thing when I stumbled across my 1942 J-50. Looked like a glue pot had exploded inside of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Hey Nick, congrats on the find. Looking forward to pics and your comments. B) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Very cool, Nick! Congratulations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCowboy Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Very cool, Nick! Congratulations! Glad to know you're still around! Haven't read much from you lately.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoubengal1954 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Glad to know you're still around! Haven't read much from you lately.... Thanks, OC! I've been doing a lot more out of town gigs lately (Mississippi, Alabama and Florida is coming up) plus we are moving into a new place (still in New Orleans), so I've been a little off the grid lately. Good to check back in and see Nick's purchase! Also sorry to hear about OWF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 We have no Gibson slopes from around 1950. We do have several from 1943-1945 and a couple (52 J-45 and 54 SJ) from the early 50s. Also, one of our banners is a 1943 SJ -- baseball bat neck and all. I'd love to see a picture of the braces on all three of your guitars. Here are some for reference. 1943 J-45 1952 J-45 All the best, -Tom Tom, I took a picture of the J45 Legend which supposingly was a copy of Eldon's '42.No scallops. Their PR for this guitar stated After a long search, a mint, 1942 Gibson J-45acoustic guitar was located. Owned by renowned acoustic guitar expert andauthor Eldon Whitford, the guitar was perfect. It was historically significant,as 1942 was the first year of production for the J-45 guitar. The fact that theJ-45 is the number one selling acoustic guitar in Gibson's history didn't hurteither. Mr. Whitford was kind enough to loan theguitar to Gibson for a painstakingly thorough examination. The guitar wentthrough both X-ray and CAT scans to accurately determine the bracing patternsand wood thickness. The glue and finish were chemically analyzed. To make along story short, Gibson learned everything about that guitar. The result? The Gibson Legend Series 1942J-45 Acoustic Guitar Let's start with the body of the J-45 reissue guitar. TheGibson round shoulder body shape is believed by many players to be the bestsounding Gibson acoustic guitar ever made. The gently rounded upper bout keepsthe highs clean and precise, while the deep lower bout ensures that famousGibson bottom end. The body is constructed of solid, premium grade Honduranmahogany. The top is solid Adirondack spruce. Both the top and back are gentlyradiused to provide tension to the wood. This makes the wood vibrate (like atuned drumhead), and as a result, projection and definition are greatlyenhanced. The J-45 guitar's beefy, hand-shaped neck is one piece ofselect premium grade mahogany, set with Gibson's famous double dovetail neckjoint for a lifelong tight fit. Hot hide glue is used in the construction, notsynthetic glue like many of today's guitars. Hide glue is organic and thinner.It makes for a better wood-to-wood construction, without a thick layer ofadhesive to impede the guitar's vibration The top bracing is exactly like theoriginal, all carved and shaped by hand, even with the tooling marks stillpresent, just as in 1942. The lightweight, wide "X" bracing ensures aguitar top that vibrates easily and sound that sustains The reissue J-45guitar's fingerboard is rare Madagascar rosewood, graced with vintage stylefrets, .082" wide by .093" high. The fingerboard also hasmother-of-pearl dot inlays, again, just like the original. The bridge isMadagascar rosewood, too. Both the nut and saddle are bone to maximize stringvibration transfer The gorgeous Vintage Sunburst color is finished off withvintage style McFadden nitrocellulose lacquer. McFadden lacquer is thethinnest, and lightest lacquer used by Gibson, and it matches the originalextremely closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 Tom, I took a picture of the J45 Legend which supposingly was a copy of Eldon's '42. No scallops. Dave, you need to take photos that show the entire length of the tone bars, from the intersection with the x-brace all the way out to the kerfing. It looks to me like there is subtle scalloping, but it's hard to say for sure without seeing the entire tone bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Tom, I took a picture of the J45 Legend which supposingly was a copy of Eldon's '42. No scallops. Their PR for this guitar stated After a long search, a mint, 1942 Gibson J-45 acoustic guitar was located. Owned by renowned acoustic guitar expert and author Eldon Whitford, the guitar was perfect. It was historically significant, as 1942 was the first year of production for the J-45 guitar. The fact that the J-45 is the number one selling acoustic guitar in Gibson's history didn't hurt either. Mr. Whitford was kind enough to loan the guitar to Gibson for a painstakingly thorough examination. The guitar went through both X-ray and CAT scans to accurately determine the bracing patterns and wood thickness. The glue and finish were chemically analyzed. To make a long story short, Gibson learned everything about that guitar. The result? The Gibson Legend Series 1942 J-45 Acoustic Guitar.<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Let's start with the body of the J-45 reissue guitar. The Gibson round shoulder body shape is believed by many players to be the best sounding Gibson acoustic guitar ever made. The gently rounded upper bout keeps the highs clean and precise, while the deep lower bout ensures that famous Gibson bottom end. The body is constructed of solid, premium grade Honduran mahogany. The top is solid Adirondack spruce. Both the top and back are gently radiused to provide tension to the wood. This makes the wood vibrate (like a tuned drumhead), and as a result, projection and definition are greatly enhanced. <br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">The J-45 guitar's beefy, hand-shaped neck is one piece of select premium grade mahogany, set with Gibson's famous double dovetail neck joint for a lifelong tight fit. Hot hide glue is used in the construction, not synthetic glue like many of today's guitars. Hide glue is organic and thinner. It makes for a better wood-to-wood construction, without a thick layer of adhesive to impede the guitar's vibration.<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">The top bracing is exactly like the original, all carved and shaped by hand, even with the tooling marks still present, just as in 1942. The lightweight, wide "X" bracing ensures a guitar top that vibrates easily and sound that sustains.<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">The reissue J-45 guitar's fingerboard is rare Madagascar rosewood, graced with vintage style frets, .082" wide by .093" high. The fingerboard also has mother-of-pearl dot inlays, again, just like the original. The bridge is Madagascar rosewood, too. Both the nut and saddle are bone to maximize string vibration transfer.<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">The gorgeous Vintage Sunburst color is finished off with vintage style McFadden nitrocellulose lacquer. McFadden lacquer is the thinnest, and lightest lacquer used by Gibson, and it matches the original extremely closely. <br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: montserratlight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> Wow, I have seen a bunch of early banners and I have never seen anything like that. Banners did not ship in significant numbers until 1943 (early). The first J-45s had no banner and had mocking pickguards. Many people thought the fire stripe pickguards we earliest because they were common in the 30s, but they did not appear om J-45s until a bit later (for a short while). With Gibson, never say never. One red flag -- the very first J-45s did not have particularly beefy necks. Many people mistook the beefy necked, no truss rod, fire stripe J-45s to be 1942, but they actually were a bit later. Best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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