GooseAbuse Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) I have one of them Flashy new Blue Les Paul Standards that seem to be a love it or hate it situation. I was wondering what it might look like way down the line. I know clear coats yellow with age so will my beautiful blue guitar eventually be Green? I tried investigating this question but finding old blue nitro guitars is not very easy (for me at least). The only thing I could find were the 1951 Century Lap Steel guitars. I'm curious if theres a history of Gibson Finishes somewhere? I found a little something about the original LP and then the Firebirds but nothing after that. Does anyone know when Gibson made the first Blue Les Paul? Anymore pictures relevant to this topic would be appreciated, thank you! Edited February 14, 2019 by GooseAbuse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Hello.. I built a blue guitar.. I didn't use Nitro but an oil finish which also has an amber tint.. And yes.. It probably will change colour. This is the guitar when I finished it about three years ago And now.. I know the lighting is different but you will see the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 I have one of them Flashy new Blue Les Paul Standards that seem to be a love it or hate it situation. I was wondering what it might look like way down the line... Pretty much the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparquelito Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 It's pretty much like this. <_< 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseAbuse Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Wow Rabs that is crazy for just a few years. It went from looking like a whale to looking like camouflage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseAbuse Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 It's pretty much like this. <_< Well i guess the color didn't change too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Wow Rabs that is crazy for just a few years. It went from looking like a whale to looking like camouflage. I had a discussion about this on another forum.. With a lot of other builders. The general consensous was that blue does often fade like this.. obviously depending on the exact sort of stain and finish used.. Heres a pic from that thread And if you want to check it.. Heres the thread. http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1692269/#Comment_1692269 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twang Gang Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) I don't think a Gibson sealed in Nitro will fade like Rab's example as he just stained it and oiled it. I've seen some examples of the Pelham Blue that turned greenish over 20 years or so. It will change some over time, but depends on the light it is exposed to. If you keep in the case when your not playing it, it will hold the color for a long time. Edited February 16, 2019 by Twang Gang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 This issue of blue tops fading/changing has been discussed a lot on the PRS forum, and some of them were none too happy about it. Those finishes were both poly/acrylic and also nitro. I have only seen this reported about blue stain though. I dont know if solid colour is any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticsg Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Yikes!! Hope the Blueberry Burst doesn't do that over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Heres more This guy said this happened in just a few years And another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticsg Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 WOW, I'm sold... I realize they all fade, but that's too quick! And while I can appreciate a white or a cherry burst fading into something antique like, that blue just looks horrible to me. No offense to anyone or there guitars, just not my cup of tea. Dang, I was seriously thinking about that Blueberry too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 And another That's muddied the waters alright. There was a C24 looked very like that at Guitar Village last year. I was tempted... until I played it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseAbuse Posted February 26, 2019 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 This guy said this happened in just a few years I actually prefer this one post fade. Both the PRS took on a denim quality and look kind of cool in my opinion. The lighting in that last one seems like it could have affected the photo. I've had my guitar almost two years now with noticeable changes, I wonder what PRS is doing to have such drastic changes. Or maybe these guys just smoke a pack a day or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NighthawkChris Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) OMG Rabs, in post #11, that is just awful what resides underneath the pickguard!!! It cannot be just blue finish that dulls/fades over time, but the faded blue look does not work for everything - at least I feel that way. I would speculate that excessive sunlight exposure could do this to a finish, but what else would cause this to happen? Gibson at least at one point in time sent additional documentation with guitars that had nice burst finishes reminding the user to avoid excessive sunlight to avoid having finish issues, that's all the warning was for. I acdtually have that little pamphlet that came with my LP Custom. If the guitar is properly stored in its case and taken out only to play, would these finishes start to dull/fade? And I don't have any personal thing against blue guitars, just that I would prefer the guitar to be a solid blue color of some sort if I ever decided to pick up a blue guitar. I.e. the LP Studio Gem in sapphire blue is pretty stunning IMO. It seems like one of the most difficult Gem Studios to run into... But that aging on this guitar is nice! The checking on it I feel is a beautiful thing. I had one at one point in time, but I got rid of it so I could pick up a Goldtop Classic. Hey, I liked gold more than sapphire... Mind you, I didn't keep it top-wrapped... I don't like that but I took a picture of it just the way I received it. Edited February 26, 2019 by NighthawkChris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) OMG Rabs, in post #11, that is just awful what resides underneath the pickguard!!! It cannot be just blue finish that dulls/fades over time, but the faded blue look does not work for everything - at least I feel that way. I would speculate that excessive sunlight exposure could do this to a finish, but what else would cause this to happen? Gibson at least at one point in time sent additional documentation with guitars that had nice burst finishes reminding the user to avoid excessive sunlight to avoid having finish issues, that's all the warning was for. I acdtually have that little pamphlet that came with my LP Custom. If the guitar is properly stored in its case and taken out only to play, would these finishes start to dull/fade? And I don't have any personal thing against blue guitars, just that I would prefer the guitar to be a solid blue color of some sort if I ever decided to pick up a blue guitar. I.e. the LP Studio Gem in sapphire blue is pretty stunning IMO. It seems like one of the most difficult Gem Studios to run into... But that aging on this guitar is nice! The checking on it I feel is a beautiful thing. I had one at one point in time, but I got rid of it so I could pick up a Goldtop Classic. Hey, I liked gold more than sapphire... Mind you, I didn't keep it top-wrapped... I don't like that but I took a picture of it just the way I received it. There is one big difference in the picture you posted. The ones I posted use a translucent stain... I don't think solid blue would age quite as much as this is paint rather than a stain. I think its just that the stain and finish mix a bit somewhat.. So it means that you are adding yellow to blue which is why it goes greenish.. I can tell you that the picture I posted of my Rabswood has only been sitting in its case between guitar shows. And its still changed quite dramatically after just a couple of years. Edited February 26, 2019 by Rabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) This is the guitar when I finished it about three years ago......And now.. I know the lighting is different but you will see the difference...... As well as the blue changing the binding has also gone very amber. Did you give it a clear coat over the dye? It looks like the clear coat is adding even further yellowing tinge to the fading blue hue. I have only seen this reported about blue stain though. I dont know if solid colour is any different?... Blue painted guitars can change in hue over time but the factors involved in this subsequent change will depend on many different factors. Here's my 2011 Lake Placid Blue Strat just after I bought it; The guitar has been kept out of its case 24 / 7 / 365 in the eight years since I brought it home. I don't have a recently taken picture to post but believe me; it looks exactly the same today. Although its never been hidden from daylight it has also never been gigged in smoky bars for the last 40 years and I think the gentle life its endured has meant there's little going on to make it change colour. For a bit of fun and just by way of comparison here's what the p'up routs looked like on my (previous owner) stripped-finish 1964 Lake Placid Blue Strat way back in 1980; I believe recent Fender LPB instruments are given a less-saturated and slightly more 'green-ish' paint job because most original LPB Fenders have 'greened' a bit over time and so Fender think this is what most modern buyers would expect to receive. If you google 'Original Lake Placid Blue Fender' just see what the variation in colours is like! In 1982 I had my '64 refin'd in genuine DuPont (Fender used DuPont paint) LPB by an automotive paint-sprayer (it was used on General Motor cars in the '50s and '60s) and the DuPont LPB was exactly the same hue as that seen in the cavities. The sprayer - who was also the bassist in a band I used to play with from time to time - said that the new polymers which were used by DuPont meant that the finish was unlikely to change over time. When I sold it in 2004 the colour was exactly as it was after it came back from the paint shop. Doesn't prove anything but I just thought I'd throw it out there FWIW. Pip. Edited February 26, 2019 by pippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 In 1982 I had my '64 refin'd in genuine DuPont (Fender used DuPont paint) LPB by an automotive paint-sprayer (it was used on General Motor cars in the '50s and '60s) and the DuPont LPB was exactly the same hue as that seen in the cavities. The sprayer - who was also the bassist in a band I used to play with from time to time - said that the new polymers which were used by DuPont meant that the finish was unlikely to change over time. When I sold it in 2004 the colour was exactly as it was after it came back from the paint shop. Doesn't prove anything but I just thought I'd throw it out there FWIW. Pip. I went over the thread I posted on the Fretboard forum.. They do generally say (and we are talking very experienced builders) that blue does generally tend to fade more than most colours. It depends on the exact chemical composition of the stain used. Of all the answers this one was most interesting. "Fading has nothing to do with the particular colour, but the pigment or colourant used in the stain. Some pigments are fugitive (prone to fading quickly), others permanent, most somewhere in between. Artists colours come with individual permanence ratings depending on the pigment(s) used to make them. Many historical pigments are fugitive and now have modern substitutes that are much more permanent. Yellowing of the oil or the wood is also a factor. If you have a blue stain and paint a thin layer of pale, transparent yellow over it, you get a green. Clear oil that yellows will cause the blue to shift towards green over time. Same idea with a yellow base and transparent blue - it leans towards green. If the base starts white and becomes yellow, your blue again shifts towards green over time. If you want to find out how much the oil yellows, wipe some onto an inert white substrate and leave it for a few months. Cheapie canvas panels from art supply places are good for this. Note that the yellowing process is not simply down to exposure to UV. For example, while it is curing, linseed oil will yellow more readily in the dark than it will in the light. It has nothing to do with the colour. It's down to the particular properties of the pigment used - how it reacts to light, and things like chemical reactions to environment, coatings, etc." So I would imagine that with enough research it would probably be possible to find the "right" type of stain or dye that does not react so much with the finish. And yes, Tru Oil is quite amber in colour which is why it does that.. Usually on a lot of my builds I do a natural finish. Woods are on the yellow to brown scale in colour you wont notice any aging apart from a slight darkening. The next build I want to do is going to be purple. I have looked in to a few other finishing options now as I don't want it to discolour like the blue one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) I went over the thread I posted on the Fretboard forum.. They do generally say......that blue does generally tend to fade more than most colours. It depends on the exact chemical composition of the stain used. Of all the answers this one was most interesting. "Fading has nothing to do with the particular colour, but the pigment or colourant used in the stain. Some pigments are fugitive (prone to fading quickly), others permanent, most somewhere in between. Artists colours come with individual permanence ratings depending on the pigment(s) used to make them. Many historical pigments are fugitive and now have modern substitutes that are much more permanent...." So I would imagine that with enough research it would probably be possible to find the "right" type of stain or dye that does not react so much with the finish.......The next build I want to do is going to be purple. I have looked in to a few other finishing options now as I don't want it to discolour like the blue one... Funnily enough before I became a photographer I was a graphic designer and the 'Fugitive' nature of paints and inks was very firmly rammed-home to us as students so I am familiar with the concept. It's not even that much different in colour photography and, in the earliest days (although to a lesser extent), black'n'white photography. Additionally photographic papers also 'yellow' in much the same way as your clear-coat ambers on an instrument. The great breakthrough in Fine Art as far as blue (specifically Ultramarine) is concerned was when Renaissance artists started to use finely ground lapis lazuli. Being a semi-precious stone it meant that using Blue was unbelievably expensive which is why it is most often seen only on very important works. The colour most prone to the 'fugitive' effect is, of course, red. If you live near any scrap car merchant's yards have a look at the older red ones! The poor permanence of many red pigments is also why all those '58 - early '60 dye-based Les Paul Standards have faded so much and the late 1960 newly-formulated 'tomato-soup' pigment-based Standards much less so. As far as the purple guitar - and especially the clear coat - is concerned I'd very much advise talking to a specialist as to which formula will work best. I don't know if all this is old hat to you but keeping things really simple; Yellow (in the additive colour context) is a Primary Colour; i.e. not a result of a mixture of colours. Purple is a Secondary Colour; i.e. a mixture of two Primary Colours (here, obviously, Red and Blue). On the Additive Colour colour-wheel Purple is the 'Opposite Colour' to Yellow. As noted both Red and Blue are prone to fading. Making things worse; when a Primary is mixed with its opposite colour Secondary the result is a Tertiary and a tertiary colour will always be a variation of Brown. If the Purple stain fades over time and, concurrently, the clear-coat 'Yellows' the resulting finish might not be quite what you had hoped for initially. Best of luck! Pip. Edited February 26, 2019 by pippy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) As far as the purple guitar - and especially the clear coat - is concerned I'd very much advise talking to a specialist as to which formula will work best. I don't know if all this is old hat to you but keeping things really simple; Yellow (in the additive colour context) is a Primary Colour; i.e. not a result of a mixture of colours. Purple is a Secondary Colour; i.e. a mixture of two Primary Colours (here, obviously, Red and Blue). On the Additive Colour colour-wheel Purple is the 'Opposite Colour' to Yellow. As noted both Red and Blue are prone to fading. Making things worse; when a Primary is mixed with its opposite colour Secondary the result is a Tertiary and a tertiary colour will always be a variation of Brown. If the Purple stain fades over time and, concurrently, the clear-coat 'Yellows' the resulting finish might not be quite what you had hoped for initially. Best of luck! Pip. Ha that was weird.. As I was reading your post, that end bit gave me flashbacks from school :) I seem to remember almost those exact same words being said to me at some point :) I think really in the end its down to the finish.. Oddly I have Tru Oil in a spay can form which from what I have seen doesn't seem to have any tint at all... So I think I will just do some tests before I do the final job. I have heard that the stains that Crimson Guitars sell are really good so I will probably try that.. It may also make a difference if the stain is water or spirit based.. And while we are at it, to show the colour of Tru Oil. I made this vid a short while back. Edited February 26, 2019 by Rabs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 By the way.. Since we are at it, I actually did a video of the whole staining process of that blue double cut, if anyone is interested :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Ha that was weird.. As I was reading your post, that end bit gave me flashbacks from school :) I seem to remember almost those exact same words being said to me at some point :)... We must have had the same art teacher!............ It was a point which was hammered home to we students so forcefully way back then that my subconcious probably took over as I typed... Pip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cesar76 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) I was researching this topic and came across this thread. Here is my story: my very first guitar was a Les Paul Studio Lite (beautiful blue color, you can see it on the internet) bought around 1992. I've played it several years and all was good. Then, I moved abroad and I left it at my parents house in its case for about the last 20 years without checking on it. Only recently I opened it and it has turned completely green! It's shocking and I hate the new color. I guess it was because of the yellowing (mother pearl inlays are yellow, but blue finish became green). Guitar was in the case all the time. I want it back as before, will write to Gibson and see what will it cost. The guitar is not worth that value but it's my first, so emotional value is high.... Edited July 25, 2020 by Cesar76 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 In 1984 I bought a 1973 Fender Musicmaster bass for $70. It was originally blue (Sonic Blue maybe) and it had turned green. I used polishing compound and a rag and eventually got it back to blue. Looking back, I wish I had left it alone. In 1993 I briefly owned a silverburst 1982 LP Custom that had turned to Martian Sunburst. I sold it before I could destroy it with the buffer. It’s your guitar and you can do as you wish. The polishing compound will take away the clearcoat and you’ll be blue again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cesar76 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 1 hour ago, ksdaddy said: In 1984 I bought a 1973 Fender Musicmaster bass for $70. It was originally blue (Sonic Blue maybe) and it had turned green. I used polishing compound and a rag and eventually got it back to blue. Looking back, I wish I had left it alone. In 1993 I briefly owned a silverburst 1982 LP Custom that had turned to Martian Sunburst. I sold it before I could destroy it with the buffer. It’s your guitar and you can do as you wish. The polishing compound will take away the clearcoat and you’ll be blue again. Didn't think it was possible to revert the process. Was it a particular polish or any would work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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