Andrew Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 so my J45 rosewood sounds great..but dammit if it just feels kinda hard to play. must be my girly fingers. It still has the factory action which seems pretty high to me. Now I know that lowering the saddle will decrease volume and sacrifice some tone but i think i'm more concerned with playablility (and i can always put a new saddle in right?). Is it common to lower the factory action? is it advisable? whats an optimum low/medium action height at the 12th fret? the neck seems pretty straight, slight bow maybe so i dont think i need to adjust it. is there a page somewhere detailing the procedure? (figure out how much you want to lower it at the 12th fret then shave off 2x that on the saddle? same amount straight across?) how hard can it be to shave down some plastic? (sandpaper?) anyway..need info, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosewoody Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/LowerAction/loweraction01.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It probably needs a slight tweak of the truss rod. Take it to a good luthier and show him how you play -- are you a rough strummer or light picker? He's adjust accordingly. You likely won't need to shave down the bridge. Factory setting is hard on the fingertips, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 My guess is if your having problems with your "Girly" fingers... it is the nut slots that need attention. When I got my AJ it was killing my fingers. I knew part of the problem was that it had 13 to 56 gauge strings on it and I prefer 12 - 54's, especially Elixir Phospher Bronze Nano's, but I had my favorite luthier/tech spend a few minutes with mine. He filed a bit on the nut slots, tweaked the truss a very slight bit and low and behold, I had a Gibson AJ that played like my Taylors..... Get a good tech to look at it, nut files are very expensive! My guy didn't charge me a penny and I didn't even buy the Gibson from them. (It was a used guitar I got in trade for a Taylor T5.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 It probably needs a slight tweak of the truss rod. Take it to a good luthier and show him how you play -- are you a rough strummer or light picker? He's adjust accordingly. You likely won't need to shave down the bridge. Factory setting is hard on the fingertips' date=' my friend. [/quote'] both. yeah it is kinda hard on the finger tips... i thought the action is not supposed to be adjusted with the truss rod (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The only thing I would add to that frets.com article is that if you sand the bottom as shown in the picture it will work but you will probably wind up with the bottom not square. It will be ok, but ideal is to use some sort of square object to hold against one side of the saddle while you sand to hold it perpendicular to the sandpaper. And the paper needs to be taped to something hard and flat, like a small piece of plate glass or a household mirror, or even a flat hard benchtop. But if you sand it free-hand as shown, just try to hold it square, especially when you get it close to the pencil line target. Just before you get it to where you will stop, eyeball the saddle from one end and see if it is out of square, then purposely sand a little heavier on the "high" side to bring it back to square. It's not rocket science, but if the bottom is far off square, it won't have maximum contact with the bottom of the slot, especially if the saddle is not tight in the slot and is free to tilt over a bit and the slant on the bottom is the opposite direction - it will be riding just on the front edge of the saddle. Make sense? (Conversely, if the bottom slants in the other direction, the bottom angle will counter the tilt of the saddle and you will have good contact again! Confused?) Oh, and ideally the saddle should be a snug fit in the slot, not so you have to tap it in, but a snug finger press fit where you can still feel it bottom out. You should have to tug on it to pull it out again. If it is loose enough to fall out, you really should make or get a new saddle. As the bridge wood shrinks over the years, saddle slots usually widen a bit, but sometimes they come from the factory with a loose saddle. (This is common for a guitar with an undersaddle pickup, when the saddle needs to be a "slide fit" but not too snug.) I didn't mean to run on like this, but it's worth doing right. If you don't enjoy working with your hands, just let a luthier do it for you for $50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Truss rod: True, the action is not really adjusted with the truss rod, but the "relief" which the truss rod controls is part of the overall action feel. You should adjust the relief and the saddle height. And the nut slot depth, too, especially if the action feels stiff at the first fret. (Do you have trouble playing F chords in first position?) I'm sure there is a page on frets.com about truss rod adjustment. Leave the nut slots to someone experienced, as if you get a slot too deep or angled wrong or too wide, it's a hassle to fix. Incidentally, you have some excellent luthiers in the Toronto area. "Twefth Fret" for example, or "Folkway" in Guelph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Truss rod: True' date=' the action is not really adjusted with the truss rod, but the "relief" which the truss rod controls [i']is[/i] part of the overall action feel. You should adjust the relief and the saddle height. And the nut slot depth, too, especially if the action feels stiff at the first fret. (Do you have trouble playing F chords in first position?) I'm sure there is a page on frets.com about truss rod adjustment. Leave the nut slots to someone experienced, as if you get a slot too deep or angled wrong or too wide, it's a hassle to fix. F chords are always kind of a ***** but i find it's when i get to around the 5th fret that chords start feeling a bit laborious. 1st position is ok. pretty sure nut is ok and neck relief is ok...i just need to drop the strings a bit. but how much to drop them? what a good playable action 12th fret measurement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumps Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/LowerAction/loweraction01.html I did this on an older guitar - a early '70's Yamaha. Every note was a chore on that thing and I took some off the bottom of the saddle. It also needed a neck adjustment...I do a fair bit of woodworking as well, so I followed the proper techniques... I would, however, offer a word of caution. Once you file it off, you can't put it back. I'd probably try everything else first, including taking it to a luthier before I'd file down the saddle. The saddle on my songwriter sits high, yet by the time the strings get to the fretboard they're very comfortable, you may need something else... JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 True, a saddle can be chopped but not built up again. However, once you learn to make your own saddles, you start to consider them "consumables" like spark plugs on your car. When I lower an action, I prefer to set the original saddle aside and make a new (shorter) saddle. Then I can always go back. However, even if you cut it too short by mistake, you can always put a shim under it. It is not ideal, but a full-length shim made of hardwood, hard plastic, or metal (e.g. brass or aluminum) is ok, and I would bet money you can't hear the difference in sound. I prefer metal, but you can use soft pine, then once you get the shim to the proper shape and thickness, hold one end with a needle-nose pliers, douse the wood with water-thin CyA glue (super glue.) Once it soaks up as much glue as it will, wipe off the excess quickly with a rag, and hit with CyA accelerant. It will turn quite hard and dense, like hardwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ideal action height? Too many variables (relief, string gauge, playing style) but I personally like my acoustic actions at the 12th fret to be around 6/64" under the low E, and 4/64" under the high E. I err on the high side so I can always play harder than normal if required without buzzing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brians356 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The proper way to measure action is to first capo at the 1st fret. (This takes the nut slot heights out of play.) Then measure from top of either 12th or 13th fret to bottom of E strings. So when I say 6/64", it would come up to 6.5/64" at least if I remove the capo. Since you can't easily go higher again on an acoustic if you go too low on the saddle, best to shoot for a higher action to start, say 7/64" low E and 5/64" high E. Measure where it is now, take the difference between that and where you want it to be, say you want to lower it 2/64", that means you need to lower the saddle 2/32" or 1/16". After you shave it down to the pencil line, try the action and see if it is still too high. Play harder than you would normally ever play. If it buzzes like that, but not when you play "normal" full volume, it is probably perfect. Also note, we talk about both E string heights, but the middle strings need to progressively fill the gap. E.g. in 64ths of an inch: E:6.0 A:5.5 D:5.0 G:4.5 B:4.5 E:4.0 Or E:6.0 A:5.5 D:5.0 G:4.5 B:4.0 E:3.5 You get the idea. It doesn't have to be gnat's arse, just use the 1/64th ruler and get 'em close, they will always be off a fraction either way. Point is start out where you think it will be too high and play it. If you must lower it some more, do it very slowly and carefully, don't bite off too much and overshoot. If you can live wth it a bit high, that's better for sound. If you get it a tad too low, loosening the truss rod a hair (adding relief) will generally stop the slight buzzing, but you can't count on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Buy another saddle or two that fits your J-45. Tusk or bone. When you take all the strings off, the old saddle can usually be pulled straight up with your fingers, pops right out. After you sand down the new one to the same height as the old, put the old one aside. Worst case scenario - you screw up the new saddle - then just pop the old one back in - no harm done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Engr Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I tend to want low action. Just adjusted my Montana Gold so the 12th fret is .073" from fret to string bottom or 4.7/64" and treble E is 0.50" or 3.2/64" with no capo on 1st. Yes, this is very low, but I do not get buzzing and my strumming and finger picking tends to be light. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brums Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I tend to want low action. Just adjusted my Montana Gold so the 12th fret is .073" from fret to string bottom or 4.7/64" and treble E is 0.50" or 3.2/64" with no capo on 1st. Yes' date=' this is very low, but I do not get buzzing and my strumming and finger picking tends to be light. Fred[/quote'] Hi Fred, your action is a very very low......... but relief ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Buy another saddle or two that fits your J-45. Tusk or bone. When you take all the strings off' date=' the old saddle can usually be pulled straight up with your fingers, pops right out. After you sand down the new one to the same height as the old, put the old one aside. Worst case scenario - you screw up the new saddle - then just pop the old one back in - no harm done! [/quote'] Wise advice, there. I tend to like a bit of meat on the bone action-wise as when I am playing with a pick I tend to have a very heavy right hand, but I sympathise with the fingerpickers here who need a skinny action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Engr Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Brums The relief is 0.15mm or 0.006". Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brums Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Brums The relief is 0.15mm or 0.006". Fred Thamks Fred, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesnBooze Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Andrew One other suggestion, before you even screw around with the saddle. nut and trussrod, with the fact you say you're OK with barred F major/minor/etc up to around your barred A major/minor/etc's, is this: Try some low tension strings, not drop tuning, but actually manufactured for the very problem you're talking about. They are made with a more balanced tension across all 6 strings. One such Brand is Newtone! They do a Heritage Series Low Tension. I've got a J45 Koa with a medium/high action with them on, and my 10 year old son has them on my Songwriter and he has no problem. He can barre all the way up to 12th and fingersyle. One tip, if you do try them, is don't cut the ends for a few days after stretching/tuning and have at least 2 turns on the post with a lock stringing instead of standard. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnt Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 It probably needs a slight tweak of the truss rod. Take it to a good luthier and show him how you play -- are you a rough strummer or light picker? He's adjust accordingly. You likely won't need to shave down the bridge. Factory setting is hard on the fingertips' date=' my friend. [/quote'] D'Ya know Doc That's sound advice! When I took my, then newly aquired SWD12 in, I also took my beat up J45. The guy I took it to was good enough to work out how he could fit the SWD to me. Needed a re-set to do it but it now plays excellently Tip of the month Doc, every one listen to the man! especially twonks like me who can't tell one end of a truss rod from the other! Thanks Doc! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith9509 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Dan Erlewine's book on guitar repair is required reading if you really want to understand all the variables that contribute to action. After reading it I have had no problem at all doing my own setups. Before reading it I didn't even know where to begin. I would even read it before taking it to a tech or luthier to have them set it up, so you know what to ask for. For me: High E is 5/64th at 12th fret (no capo) Low E is 6/64th at 12 fret. 0.008 of relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 wow..fantastic...thanks for all your advice everyone!!! i'll let you know how it goes. now i just need to find a good ruler... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Everybody has about said it all, But there are so many variables. I like to let some time pass and play them as they are for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Everybody has about said it all' date=' But there are so many variables. I like to let some time pass and play them as they are for awhile.[/quote'] +1. When I first got my '03 J45RW, I was (and still am) an (electric) lead player in gigging bar bands. My first instinct was to lower the action. It very well may had been the Hall Groper back in the old forum who suggested I wait before "tweaking" anything. Thank God I listened. I dig in and get a big sound out of mine, with the factory specs. I'll never lower it. It's not an electric, it is what it is. Murph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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