A great line

[tulsaslim]

Last night I was talking with my brother (who gigged for 22 years) about how, if we were still gigging, we'd use our modified Epis and leave the expensive Gibsons at home. I mentioned that we both know people that wouldn't be seen playing an Epi on stage. His comment was "Screw 'em. I'd be proud to play my Epis on stage. I'd wear 'em as a Badge of Common Sense".

 

A Badge of Common Sense. That's a pretty good line. Wish I would've said it myself.

[smokestack]

Yep,

 

Great line that...and very aptly applied to most Epi guitars.

[Nickblues1]

I think people get to hung up on the "Brand Name" and forget that the audience does not care. It's all about the music. A great song is still great whether its played by the original artist or a 80 piece orchestra.

 

When is the last time you walked out of a concert because the artist was not playing the correct brand name guitar.

[Notes_Norton]

My ES-330 is now a collector's item (I've seen them going for up to $5,000 on eBay.

 

My Casino is almost identical (main difference is where the neck joins the body).

 

While my ES-330 sounds better unplugged (better wood 'n' finish I guess), the Casino sounds better plugged in (newer P90s I guess).

 

I leave the ES-330 at home (especially since I "double" on sax, flute, wind synthesizer and guitar - which means the guitar is at risk for dings and scratches) and play the Casino on the gig. It makes sense to me.

 

As far as I'm concerned, you can get up there with a Danelectro, Turser, Silvertone, "no-name" or whatever and it isn't a badge of anything. What matters to me is the music that comes out of the speakers (or sound hole).

 

People sometimes place more importance on what kind of instrument you are playing that what is coming out of that instrument. As far as I'm concerned, that's their problem.

 

The audience doesn't care what brand of guitar you are playing, but (1) how you look and (2) how you sound.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[brad1]

Absolutly great line!!!

I wear (and play) a Badge of Common Sense everyday.

I need my "stinking badges!".

brad

[Lerxst1281733995]

Last night I was talking with my brother (who gigged for 22 years) about how' date=' if we were still gigging, we'd use our modified Epis and leave the expensive Gibsons at home. I mentioned that we both know people that wouldn't be seen playing an Epi on stage. His comment was "Screw 'em. I'd be proud to play my Epis on stage. I'd wear 'em as a Badge of Common Sense".

 

A Badge of Common Sense. That's a pretty good line. Wish I would've said it myself.[/quote']

 

Heh... Great line, Slim... You know, I've played in several bands over the last 20 odd years and by and large, most people in the audience don't know the difference between a BASS and a GUITAR, let alone guitar brands... People who are concerned about their stage image in regards to guitar brands are worried more about what the other guitarists in the audience will think of them.. And as a wise friend once told me: "What other people think of you is none of your business."

[Vic Flick]

As far as I'm concerned' date=' you can get up there with a Danelectro, Turser...

[/quote']

 

 

Funny you should say that, I was recording some tracks this morning and I wanted a Gretschy sound on one of the tracks. I have a Brian Setzer Gretsch hanging on the wall, but I used a Jay Turser Colonel (White Falcon clone) because it was handy. I modified it with GFS pickups and a Gretsch bridge, it has a great feeling neck. It sounded perfect, just what I was looking for.

 

 

When I was young and went to see other bands, the thing that impressed me the most was the guy with a cheap, krappy guitar that made it sound good.

[Uz]

"I mentioned that we both know people that wouldn't be seen playing an Epi on stage. "

 

 

I guess Lennon didn't get that memo..

[JayGLongBeach]

Very cool line, Slim...

 

Not sound too philosophical but that holds true

in all facets of life...

[bug music]

Good line slim.

 

Is that your Lucille in your avatar ? Really nice picture !

 

I put one of my Lucille as my avatar. Not a very good shot of me, but at least I'm smiling, usually I have a somewhat constipated facial expression while I'm playing.

 

- Jay

[tulsaslim]

Nope, just the Lucille I want. I had to wait until I got home from work to change it to one of my own.

 

And I totally agree with what has been said in this thread. I admit that all the years I've spent in front of amps has taken it's toll on my hearing (as is the case with many of you, no doubt) but to me a modified Epi with Gibson pickups and electronics is undistinguishable from a Gibson in a live environment sound-wise. And even in a recording environment, where I use a tube pre-amp & utilize the amp models built into my recorder, I cannot tell the difference between the tracks I recorded with my Epi LP vs. the one's I've done with my Gibson LP. Also, I've never had anyone other than other guitarists ever ask me about my guitar at a live gig.

 

I, too, get a charge out of seeing someone playing a 'clunker' and making it sound sweet.

[Dave]

Slash was quoted in a recent GW article about backline amps. He said that it didn't matter what he was playing. "It will still sound like me because the sound comes from my hands and fingers, not the equipment."

[Notes_Norton]

You can play music for yourself, you can play music for other musicians, or you can play music for the public. In either case (if you are good enough) you will get the audience you asked for.

Sometimes we musicians get too hung up about what other musicians think.

 

The audience doesn't care if you are playing a Gibson, Epi, Fender, Focus, Dan-o, Turser, Silvertone, Yamaha, an old Kay or one of those 60's Italian jobs with more switches than anyone knows what to do with.

I repeat: The audience cares about what you play and what you look like.

 

The audience knows nothing about play-ability. And they know nothing about your technique. They know whether you played something that they like or not.

 

Within reason, they don't care about tone (which is perhaps the main difference between a Gibson and an Epi from an audience's perspective). After all, there is no definitive guitar tone. What sounds great to one person might sound downright crappy to another. It's all a matter of taste. As long as the tone is appropriate for the genre of music you are playing, the public doesn't know the difference.

 

But if you play in an expressive manner that suits the kind of music you are playing, and if you are playing for the crowd that likes that kind of music, you will be liked.

 

In my day I've heard some great guitarists playing some downright crummy guitars that blew me away, conversely I've heard some bad guitarists play top-of-the-line guitars. If course, I've also heard some great guitarists playing great guitars and crummy guitarists playing crummy guitars.

 

For the musician, we have to hone our technical skills so that we can express what is in our soul to the extent of the "God Given Talent" that we have.

 

I repeat what I said on another thread. Charlie Parker is considered by saxophonists to be one of the greatest sax players of all time. Unfortunately he had a severe addiction which resulted in money problems. So his sax was in the pawn shop way too many times. He played anything anyone would loan him or he could get his hands on. He has even been recorded playing a plastic saxophone (the plastic sax didn't make it because it sounded bad and was hard to play -- See http://www.saxgourmet.com/grafton.htm if you are interested). But Charlie Parker sounded better on that Grafton Plastic sax than over 90% of the sax players could ever hope to play on whatever sax they feel is the best sax in the world.

 

It's not about your tools, and your instrument is a tool. True, a good tool makes your job easier but I repeat, it isn't about your tools, it's about what you do with your tool.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[jcwillow777]

Very well said. I couldn't agree more Notes.

[sexygibson]

I couldnt agree more. As one her who owns both Gibby and Epi's, I can honestly say that for the money, you get more bang for your buck with the epi.

[Suho]

Two things, a comment and a story:

 

1. I agree about the main difference being tone. There are amazing guitarists who speak with inspiration through their instruments, even though I may not love the tone of their voice. Players like The Iceman Albert Collins and Dimebag Darrell Abbott - worlds apart in style and genre, but both generally have what is generally termed as bright guitar tone. I am not crazy about the tone - prefering warmer voicings - but they still are amazing players who make you realize that if we all sounded the same, we.... would all sound the same!

 

2. When I first started on bass, I had a cheap student bass w/ a short scale. I plunked around as best I could. My teacher, an amazing player and a nice guy, had this beautiful but well used '73 butterscotch Jazz bass with EMG piskups. He sounded awesome, as expected.

 

At some point I tried to play off my crappy playing as being due to the limitations of my instrument. He then had us switch guitars to let me play his, and vice versa. That was the best lesson I ever had, and he never had to directly say what I quickly realized. Even on his amazing instrument, I still sucked, and even on my small student model he sounded like himself - incredible.

 

I got the hint, and never made that excuse again, let me tell you. When I read the big name guitarists say that they will always sound like them, I now know it is true. I used to think it was a bit of arrogance and pomp.

[flyingfrets]

In my mind, if a chip-board Silvertone was good enough for Page to use on Kashmir (live), then an Epi's just fine for me.

[Lerxst1281733995]

As the old saw goes:

 

"It's a poor musician who blames his instrument...."

[tulsaslim]

Like many of you, I go back to the days when there were only two basic choices: high-quality high-dollar Gibsons, Fenders, Gretschs, etc., and a bunch of total crap.

 

Obviously, if we were playing professionally, we all bit the bullet for a good guitar and watched the road gobble it up one nick and one scratch at a time. (In my days, I ran three great Gibson LPs into the ground). I learned very quickly to view my guitars as a 'tool' which was the only way I could cope with watching them slowly die over time.

 

The very idea of having a medium-priced guitar that was 'gig-quality' was a pipe dream back then. The fact that we have very-well-built Epis available today which, (with modifications) provides us with totally acceptable road axes pleases me greatly. If I was gigging today I guarantee I'd be using modified Epis even though I own several expensive Gibsons. When they finally get ready to give up the ghost I'd pull out the electronics and put them in a new one. As far as playability is concerned, my Epis play as good as any 4k guitar made and with upgraded electronics they provide a more-than-satisfactory tone IMO.

 

And, honestly, I don't give a rat's *** about what anybody else thinks about it. If they want to rag me for playing an Epi, screw 'em. A guy who is trying to impress you with his gear is probably trying to divert you from noticing something else- i.e. inferior playing skills.

[Parabar]

Mostly I agree about the player being much more important than the equipment. David Lindley, for example, is known for favoring weird and cheap guitars (Teiscos, Silvertones, homemade mixed parts, etc.) and making them sound amazing (although he does use top-of-the-line amps), and I've heard Carlos Santana play a borrowed strat copy through a tiny solid-state amp and still get his unmistakable sound.

 

On the other hand, I found the recent Cream reunion DVD, on which Clapton played a Strat, to be a huge disappointment. The playing was great, but the single-coil Strat tone just didn't sound right in that context. That music needs a BIG rich "Creamy" guitar tone, and the strat tone was more like Skim Milk.

[MI_Canuck]

agree pretty much with what's said... that you can get 95% of the tone with an Epi, at say 30% of the cost of a Gibson - that's a no-brainer... and gives the gigging musician peace of mind that if his Epi gets dinged or stolen, not as much a big deal...

 

although for some, that 500 Epi is about all they could ever afford, and to them, would take a long time to get the scratch together to replace... so i can respect that totally...

 

i can't justify getting a Gibson right now - or if i can afford one, certainly my playing ability isn't worthy - not even close, and i could not afford replacing it.... so i choose Epis. Actually, I choose USED Epis at that. lol... But that way, i can also throw in some new pickups (i like Seymour Duncan's anyways), upgrade the electronics, and not worry about devalueing it too much, since an Epi is not really an investment to me. Although truth be told, if I had my new/used Epi Les Paul stolen, I'd still be pretty bummed out. Certainly with my latest addition.

 

but on the same token, if someone can afford a Gibson without blinking twice, then more power to them. whether they are great players or they suck, if it makes them happy, cool. let's face it, for some people, dropping $3K on a guitar is the same as the average person dropping $500. It's not for me to judge or hate them or start telling them they should buy an Epi instead because it's better value. Life isn't always about common sense. We all do things sometimes that make us feel good, although slight guilt behind it - guilty pleasures if you will. There are those in life that afford more expensive guilty pleasures. That's just a fact of life. We're not all driving around in Lamborghinis or even Porsches or Mercedes.

 

at the end of the day, it's about respecting each others' choice - which is really the issue most of the time... ie. the Gibson guy "looking down" on the Epi guy... because maybe he (falsely) think Epis are total junk. Or on the flip side, the Epi guy "thumbing his nose" at the Gibby guy - because maybe there is some hidden envy there.

 

I buy used Epis because that's what I can bear, and allows me the pleasure of playing a really good instrument within my means. And I love my Epis. They put a smile on my face. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to someday own a Jimmy Page signature Custom Shop LP, or an ES-339, etc. But if I do attain that level, certainly wouldn't all of a sudden rag out the Epi. I'll probably always keep my Epis since they are what it's all about - an instrument of good quality that the average person can buy and play and enjoy the joys of music.

 

 

cheers

[tulsaslim]

I agree with you, Parabar. I thought the same thing when I watched that dvd. The strat had a very thin sound (by comparison) and was most evident in a 3-piece band environment.

[rraguse]

The hands holding the guitar and the creative mind moving the hands is the sound. And in my humble opinion, Gibson guitars, as fine as they are, are over-rated. I have a 76 LP Standard I have been dragging around for thirty years and prefer my Epiphone Dot Studio and my Ibanez AM73 over my Gibson. Both guitars with hard cases were under $400 each.

[pohatu771]

I have a friend who bought the Gibson SG Faded, solely because it was a Gibson rather than an Epiphone.

 

I've played it, quite a bit, and it's no better than the G-400s I've played in Guitar Center.

 

He's kind of a narrow-minded, conservative sort of guy, and the main selling point on the SG was that it says "Made in America" on the back of the headstock.

 

He also likes to judge things based on how much they cost, so I like to point out that my Korean Epiphone costs more than his American Gibson.

[tulsaslim]

I know what you mean, Pohatu. Like you, my guitars are not nor will ever be 'investments'. Every guitar I've ever bought in my life I bought because 'I liked it' and nothing more.

 

I had a friend who bought a Gibson SG Standard for $1100 a couple of years ago at the same time I bought 2 elitist SG '61 re-issues when they were closing them out for $499. ( I bought a 'finished' and a 'satin finished' model). I tried to change his mind but he, too, was convinced the 'made in USA' made it a better guitar. Well, long story short, my elitist blows his standard away. Even he admits it. He's been trying to buy one of mine for the last year. Ain't selling it, though.

 

I don't begrudge anybody for buying a Gibson as long as they're not spending the rent money on it. Heck, I've got three of them myself and even at 3 grand you find yourself trying to justify it by saying "well, it's still only about 1/8 the cost of a Harley". Those Gibsons, though, never leave the house.

 

Plus, another deal is this: I loathe the idea of modifying a $3000 Gibson (What? You bought a $3000 guitar that's 'not quite right'?) but I love to modify guitars. The Epi stock pickups are not 'bad' pickups by any means, but I can always justify replacing them, too. Same with the rest of the hardware. I've rigged Epi LPs with DiMarzio Evolutions ( great!), SD Phat Cats (great, too!), Dave Mustaine Actives (ditto) ; put Phat Cats on a dot, ditto a set of Gib 490/498 and get a huge kick out of all of them. I'd never even consider doing that stuff to a Gibson.

 

And, yeah, I know I'd never be able to sell my Epis for what I've got in them but I have no intention of selling them so I don't lose any sleep there.

 

And since I'm an LP and 335/Dot addict, I'm so glad that there is an Epiphone to make sanctioned 'knock-offs' of the Gibson models I love at an affordable price.