Svet Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 The Guitar dater website is gone! What happened? Click here and see..... I'm saddened by this! I was going to look up this (click me) guitar and found out the news. What do you guys think of that Deluxe? Any reason to think it is not legit? Svet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I know Svet this sucks! I just got a 96-97 Epi today! and wanted to check the factory..man we took that baby for granted huh? Hope it comes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Canuck Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 holy crap!! :( bummer indeed... i wonder if Epiphone/Gibson had anything to do with this.... peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I know Svet this sucks! I just got a 96-97 Epi today! and wanted to check the factory..man we took that baby for granted huh? Hope it comes back. Here's the factories: DW = DaeWon (China) EA = Gibson/QuingDao (China) Acoustics EE = Gibson/QuingDao (China) Electrics I = Saein (Korea) MC = Muse (China) R = Peerless (Korea) S = Samick (Korea) SJ = SaeJung (China) U = Unsung (Korea) B stands for Bohêmia Musico-Delicia (Czech Republic) F = Fine Guitars Plant, Korea The first 2 numbers are the year, next 2 numbers will be the month (01 - 12), last four production run. So R97091234 was made at the Peerless factory in September 1997. Sometimes, the year might be just the first digit so S9114321 would be Samick November 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Canuck Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 some earlier Epis - like my LP didn't have a letter designation in front of the numbers.... my S/N is only 11006XX... no letter designation... it's a 91 made in Oct (10th month), and has "Made in Korea" on the headstock... but the plant is somewhat unknown... although it's probably Samick, although have heard that Aria was also making Epi LP's in the early '90s (this was told to me by a Gibson customer service person over the phone... so don't know how valid)... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Jerry what do you make of this serial number? C197113558 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Canuck Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 and what about F for Fujigen... (Elite/Elitist).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 some earlier Epis - like my LP didn't have a letter designation in front of the numbers.... my S/N is only 11006XX... no letter designation... it's a 91 made in Oct (10th month)' date=' and has "Made in Korea" on the headstock... but the plant is somewhat unknown... although it's probably Samick, although have heard that Aria was also making Epi LP's in the early '90s (this was told to me by a Gibson customer service person over the phone... so don't know how valid)... cheers [/quote'] Matsumoku (makers of Aria) did make some high end Epis in Japan late '70s thru early '90s when production moved to Terada. These were made mostly for the Japanese market. The original Korean Epis were all made by Samick in the beginning, so there was no need to indicate which factory made them. Around 1992 / 1993, Epiphone contracted with several other Korean manufactures and began using the current serial # system. Hence no letter designation on your '91 which was made by Samick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Jerry what do you make of this serial number? C197113558 Nov 1st 1997 3,558 unit? I know you said first 2 numbers but my year was in the 2nd and 3rd spots in this serial... Im confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Made a mistake!!! Its CI as in the letter (i) ...197113558 CI197113558 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Canuck Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Matsumoku (makers of Aria) did make some high end Epis in Japan late '70s thru early '90s when production moved to Terada. These were made mostly for the Japanese market. The original Korean Epis were all made by Samick in the beginning' date=' so there was no need to indicate which factory made them. Around 1992 / 1993, Epiphone contracted with several other Korean manufactures and began using the current serial # system. Hence no letter designation on your '91 which was made by Samick. [/quote'] cool - thanks for the info jerrymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Jerry what do you make of this serial number? C197113558 My take is that it's November 1997 and that the factory code is CI. Perhaps something Indonesia (Samick uses SI for their Indonesian factory). Epiphone used lots of unknown factories, and a lot of the lower priced bolt-on neck models were made in Indonesia. In fact, I heard (but can not state as absolute fact) that some were even made in India!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Thanks Jerry...Yeah If you read above I messed up earlier the first two letters are CI not C1 CI197113558 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Thanks Jerry...Yeah If you read above I messed up earlier the first two letters are CI not C1 CI197113558 I was thinking about it, Cort has a factory in Indonesia, so CI could stand Cort Indonesia. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerxst1281733995 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 The Guitar dater website is gone! What happened?Click here and see..... I'm saddened by this! I was going to look up this (click me) guitar and found out the news. What do you guys think of that Deluxe? Any reason to think it is not legit? Svet Svet' date=' why does that LP have mini-hums? The seller didn't mention anything in the description about changing the pups.. Is a deluxe [i']supposed[/i] to have minis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daneman Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yup the Deluxe has Mini Hums.I used to own one. Mine was an older one than the E bay one Svet linked,whuch as far as I can tell looks legit. Other thoughts or opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copper1281734000 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 The Guitar dater website is gone! What happened? Dang, this sucks, that was a really convenient and useful site. Hopefully it'll be up soon again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rented Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Maybe I can convince a friend of mine at the Gibby net team to put this up as a sticky. I'll ask him on Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Matsumoku (makers of Aria) did make some high end Epis in Japan late '70s thru early '90s when production moved to Terada. These were made mostly for the Japanese market. The original Korean Epis were all made by Samick in the beginning' date=' so there was no need to indicate which factory made them. Around 1992 / 1993, Epiphone contracted with several other Korean manufactures and began using the current serial # system. Hence no letter designation on your '91 which was made by Samick. [/quote'] The Matsumoku-made line of high-er, not necessarily "high" end (they were better than a lot of the crap coming from Japan at that point but only relatively "higher" end-they still had so-so pickups and polyurethane finishes) guitars began in 1975 and continued until 1986 when Korean production of the Sheraton and other models (by Samick) began followed by Samick-made Les Pauls in 1988. All acoustic guitar production was moved to Korea in 1983 and these were also made by Samick and follow the early (1986-1994) Samick format of first two digits of the serial number=the last two digits of the year followed by a two digit month code and then the production sequence number. In about 1981 the distribution of the Matsumoku line became more expanded to include the US and UK. For the most part the Japanese market Matsumoku line's serialization works as the first digit of the number being the last digit of the year followed by two digits designating the month- 103XXXX = March of 1981 for example. Since the production began in 1975 there was an overlap of the use of "5" as the first digit in both 1975 and 1985-The way to determine which year the guitar was made is by the location of the Epiphone offices on the label-the 1975 model will say "Kalamazoo, Michigan" the 1985 model will say "Nashville Tennessee". The more-common Matsumoku line from this period that was exported didn't have a lot of rhyme or reason to its numbering but does occasionally follow the higher end line's system. The way to date these to a any kind of time frame is by knowing when the model was introduced. Also, starting in 1977 the label stated the business offices of Epiphone as being in Lincolnwood, Illinois. prior to this the offices were of course in Kalamazoo. A year or so later the labels in the flat tops began stating the guitar was "A product of Norlin". In 1979 the PR or "Presentation" line of acoustic guitars was introduced and used the Japanese market Matsumoku serial number format. Terada production began for the Japanese-exclusive market in 1987 and continues to this day (as the Elitist electric arch top line-Fuji gen makes the Elitist solid bodies)). Terada serialization is actually a sequential number and I haven't been able to determine the start and stop points of the years 1987-1998 but I'm working on it. It's been suggested that it's much the same as the Matsumoku Japan-exclusive system with the first digit being the last digit of the year and the next two numbers being the month but I happen to have a Terada-made Epiphone with the serial number of 65783 that I was told by the original owner was purchased in 1993 so that doesn't work for this particular guitar though it could be that my guitar, which was a special model ("65 Casino") made exclusively for a Japanese music store chain falls outside of the usual numbering system for the Terada-made instruments. Samick did in deed make the first of the Korean imports beginning in 1983 with a line of acoustic guitars and continuing until about 1999 when the company went into bankruptcy proceedings and the production focus shifted to the Korean contract factories. The early Samick numbers can be confusing because serial numbers beginning with "9" have been found on guitars purchased in the fall of 1989 but for the most part follow the pattern of the first two numerical digits being the last two digits of the year (86=1986, 87=1987 etc.). Starting about 1994 Epiphone began using contract factories such as Peerless (alpha prefix-R), Saien (alpha prefix-I) and Unsung (alpha prefix-U) as well as having production by Samick (alpha prefix-S) with these alpha prefixes followed by one or two digit years codes for the first one or two numbers and two digit month codes and the last numbers being the production sequence for the month. The Gibson-made Epiphones from 1957 to 1970 follow the Gibson serial number system of the time which makes absolutely no sense so you have to know the other factors such as if the guitar nickel or chrome hardware (Nickel until 1965, chrome after), when certain body style changes occurred and when certain pickups were used as well as when the particular serial numbers were used (there are MANY overlaps and repetitions) and much too expansive to go into here. Bummer about Joe PassWannabe's web site but more or less what's here is what was there. There were runs of guitars made in Taiwan ( the Genesis and some "Scroll" models) and really low end models( branded as "Epi") made in Indonesia and elsewhere but I have no idea about those serial number formats... but it usually isn't difficult to determine if you have more than one guitar's number available to decipher a pattern. I don't remember the format of the Elitist models and I don't know what the Chinese formats and factory prefixes are but I'm certain someone here will be able to offer help with that. ...and Al's your uncle. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 WRONG!!! The Matsumoku-made line of high-er' date=' not necessarily "high" end (they were better than a lot of the crap coming from Japan at that point but only relatively "higher" end-they still had crappy pickups and polyurethane finishes) guitars began in 1975 and continued until 1986 when Korean production of the Sheraton and other models (by Samick) began followed by Samick-made Les Pauls in 1988. [/quote'] Wrong??? You're arguing semantics, the difference between high and higher??? Sheesh!!! All acoustic guitar production was moved to Korea in 1983 and these were also made by Samick and follow the early (1986-1994) Samick format of first two digits of the serial number=the last two digits of the year followed by a two digit month code and then the production sequence number. How can a guitar manufactured in 1983 follow the early (1986-1994) Samick format??? Besides' date=' Epiphone used an entirely different system in 1984 & 1985. Flat tops #s were in this format: K84000 in 1984, K85000 in 85. With the addition of other models, they switched to a 7 digit # where the first three digits indicate what kind of guitar it was: 080xxxx indicates a flat top 400xxxx indicates an electric hollowbody 506xxxx indicates a solid body (that's just a partial listing) In about 1981 the distribution of the Matsumoku line became more expanded to include the US and UK. For the most part the Japanese market Matsumoku line's serialization works as the first digit of the number being the last digit of the year followed by two digits designating the month- 103XXXX = March of 1981 for example. Since the production began in 1975 there was an overlap of the use of "5" as the first digit in both 1975 and 1985-The way to determine which year the guitar was made is by the location of the Epiphone offices on the label-the 1975 model will say "Kalamazoo' date=' Michigan" the 1985 model will say "Nashville Tennessee".[/quote'] Actually, the 1975 - 1980 Matsumokus only had six digit serial numbers, and starting in 1980 they switched to seven digits. So you can tell a 1975 from a 1985 just from the serial #. What you also fail to mention is that the color of the label changed over the years, blue from 1975 - 1980, light brown (tan) 1980 - 1985, brown 1985 - 1988 and orange (with a 5 digit serial #) 1988 onward. My take is that they switched to the 5 digit serial # & orange label with the move to Terada. Samick did in deed make the first of the Korean imports beginning in 1983 with a line of acoustic guitars and continuing until about 1999 when the company went into bankruptcy proceedings and the production focus shifted to the Korean contract factories. The early Samick numbers can be confusing because serial numbers beginning with "9" have been found on guitars purchased in the fall of 1989 but for the most part follow the pattern of the first two numerical digits being the last two digits of the year (86=1986' date=' 87=1987 etc.). Starting about 1994 Epiphone began using contract factories such as Peerless (alpha prefix-R), Saien (alpha prefix-I) and Unsung (alpha prefix-U) as well as having production by Samick (alpha prefix-S) with these alpha prefixes followed by one or two digit years codes for the first one or two numbers and two digit month codes and the last numbers being the production sequence for the month.[/quote'] Epiphone started expanding to other factories sometime in 1993. One forum member (toled) has an S92xxxxx which is why I now say the system began '92/'93, but AFAK 1993 is the date. However, you're wrong when you said that Samick continued manufacturing "...until about 1999 when the company went into bankruptcy proceedings..." I personally have a 2001 Samick, and someone on the forum has a 2007 Samick Indonesia. BTW, Samick uses the same S08021234 format and SI for Samick Indonesia for their guitars. I don't remember the format of the Elitist models and I don't really care what the Chinese formats and factory prefixes are but I'm certain someone here will at least be able to offer help with that. T (Terada) or F (Fuji Gen) prefix' date=' single digit year, 2 digit month, production run. Chinese same as Korean, EE for Epiphone electrics, EA is Epiphone Acoustics. There is also DW which I believe is Daewon, which is a subcontractor. SI is Samick Indonesia and I've had an SM which I guess is Samick Malaysia. I happen to have a Terada-made Epiphone with the serial number of 65783 How about a photo??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 How about a photo??? Don't you have enough photos and magazines to keep your little mind busy? I don't have to prove anything to you by posting little pictures. I haven't posted photos anywhere on line since 2002 when my web site was hacked and raided and people were selling my guitars on E bay and out of a web store based in Singapore using those photos so screw you. Maybe that's your little ego trip showing off your BS collection but it isn't mine. Do you really want to continue this pissing contest? I edited my post so that it wasn't so antagonistic but I will gladly straighten you out about anything you want to discuss concerning Epiphone history. Think back for a second where *you* learned most of this...and no, you didn't magically show up here one day just brimming with knowledge. I remember you quoting MY previous posts verbatim about your precious Matsumoku "Mattys" lol Mattys. Suddenly CheesyMac's an expert... basking in the glow of being held in high esteem for his knowledge....just happening to not acknowledge where he obtained his knowledge is all. I can go back to the old site to prove this if you like since you seem to be all about proof. I was almost flattered. The same way I am when I see my old posts quoted and even when they're plagiarized on E Bay, Craig's List and dealer web sites which happens quite often.. and of course by you. The flattery though does feel better when it's genuine and based on what you actually know and not what you lifted from someone else and are taking credit for. A "high end" guitar is a a Gibson L-5 A Matsumoku Epiphone is a "higher end" guitar than say the first wave of Matsumoku Epiphone electrics but doesn't achieve the level of a Gibson similar model unless you happen to be delusional. Semantics? No, rational thinking. Your "Mattys" are 1970's Japanese guitars with crappy pickups and cheap plastic-y finishes and huge ugly headstock volutes-they just happen to be slightly better than a lot of the crap that was coming out of Japan at the time and almost as good as what Gibson was putting out at the lowest quality point in their history-actually there's very little difference between your Mattys and the Korean versions except the finishes on the Mattys are a lot uglier and the pickups on the Samicks are better. I think what happens is the statement of "A higher end guitar intended for the Japanese exclusive market" is taken out of historical context. Higher end for that time but ten years later Samick had caught up But if you can tell me how there's any significant difference and your Mattys are in some way superior to a Samick-made model I'd love to hear it. Would that be in materials? I know it's not in the electronics since it's commonly acknowledged that this was a weak point for those guitars. Is the Japanese level of craftsmanship superior to the Korean? How so ? There are some Japanese guitars from that era that were extraordinary such as the original Ibanez L-5 Copy that morphed into the George Benson model but you don't own any of them...you own the garden variety Matsumoku Epiphones. OK guitars but not so exceptional as to warrant any ego displays for owning one. The serial formats of Gibsons and Epiphones changed with the 1994 Gibson Anniversary models. Again, no doubt there were exceptions with the Epiphones. Samick-branded instruments from around that time also used an "S" alpha prefix and after all-in actuality, they all are Samick guitars...or in the case of your "Mattys", Arias or from whatever contract factory made the particular guitar. Hasn't been an actual Epiphone made since about 1955 or so and even those were iffy at the end. The official serial number format change took place in 1994. I think you'll find that on the Gibson web site. I wasn't talking about the color of the labels and where do the pea-green labels (late 70's by the numbers) I've encountered a few times fit into your color scheme?... and I was discussing serial number formats and I never said that any were six or seven or twelve or seven hundred and forty numbers in those formats and I'll concede the 1985 models discrepancies I made because it was never that life-defining to me to know that..but you read it somewhere so it's probably true. Care to divulge the source? I don't doubt that there were strange Samick numbers. Seems I mentioned the case of one that deciphered to 1990 that was purchased in 1989 so what? The next time you talk to Jim Rosenberg ask him when Samick stopped making Epiphones and why-I'm repeating what he told me and the rest of the original Epiphone forum when I once asked him before you happened along. I didn't believe him at first and checked it out myself-Samick went into receivership in 1999 and then re-organization. You probably should hold on to that 2002 Samick if it is in deed a 2002 because if it is it's as rare a bird as you have in your collection. Again, you're basing this on serial numbers which are an inexact science with any brand. After their reorganization they may very well as returned to making guitars in Indonesia or where ever since they did re-open their piano manufacturing-in China around 2003 ...but you would be the one to know about all that since Chinese and Indonesian products seem to loom large in your life. I mentioned that the "starting in 1983" Samick acoustic numbers were the same as the "early 1986-93" because that was a format people were more familiar with so I referenced it as I did. And thanks again for adding the information on the Indonesian and Chinese numbers. I knew you could be counted on for something within your scope of knowledge. You know CheesyMac, we can take this a long way. Up to you. I have complete confidence in what I know off the top of my head which is what my entire original post was-off the top of my head.. How long did it take you find your rebuttal in your book collection? Where do you think Joe Pass Wannabe got a lot of the information for the often quoted and often lauded dating web site? I'm sure you know and I'm sure it bites you in the *** like a lot of things you read here. I was ready to let this pass because none of it is really worth my time but you continued it so now... Your serve. ...and Al's your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Norm Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Hey gang, Why don't you try this one. It works perfect for me. Just click download and follow the instructions. You'll have all Epiphone serial number info. http://www.geocities.com/offroaderx/download.html Have a good day. Big Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchie1281734003 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 For Iconoclast,i know you`ve got your issues with Jerrymac,about this China business,and i know it seems to be getting a lot more personal,but now that you are starting to knock his Matsumoku made guitars,i`ve got to jump in.I love em,particularly the Casino,and i feel some of your comments are confusing.You knock the colours they came in as not being authentic,well you can get both the Korean and Terada models in blonde,are they more authentic than the Matsumoku blonde ones?.I own three Matsumoku Casino`s,and try as i might,i can`t find a volute on any of them.As for the pickups,you told Wildwood 2 days ago,that the weak point on the Matsumoku Casino`s was their p-90 pickups!,yet you said to Jerrymac on the 3/09/07"I don`t have any real experience with the Matsumoku P-90`s to be able to say,but i can say that the P-90`s in my mid 90`s Terada made Casino & the P-90`s in my 65 Kalamazoo Casino are very close".What i would like to know,is where have you now gained this knowledge(Tried a few out,or you just saying that for the hell of it!).I`ve played all the versions of he Casino,with the exception of the new Chinese one`s and have a 64 Gibson 330 at hand as i write,and you know what,my Matsumoku Casino`s have more balls than the Gibby!!.As for the Poly finish on the Matsumoku`s,well the Terada`s have it too,and what`s the point of putting Nitro on plywood anyway!!! it may age great,but don`t improve the tone.Now i for one started playing and buying guitars in the early 80`s,and let me tell you Gibson,and Fender U.S.were not offering too much in the way of quality or value for money,it took the Japanese to kick them up they`re arses,before they got it back together,and if you now think(maybe you don`t) that a top of the line current Historic series Gibby,could be better than a current Tokai ls320,you would be very,very wrong,Japan caught up a long time ago.The first Terada made Casino`s were very similar to the Matsumoku`s,they had the same h/ware,except for the tuners(Terada reverted back to Kluson copies)they shared the same three piece Maple neck,although on the samples i`ve seen,six in total,the centre piece of Maple is off centre(spot on,on Matsumoku`s!). And for some unknown reason,they went to a 17th fret neck/body join.The current Elite/Elitist is a great guitar for the money,but it`s no better than a Matsumoku!!!,try one you might agree,although that might be asking too much!!!. ...and Uncle Mat`s your Daddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBL2 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Thanks Jerry for shedding some light on the CI factory code. A couple of my favorite Epi's have serial #s that start off CI, but I've never been able to find out where they were made. They're a bit different than their counterparts from other factories, i.e. the pickguards on the LP Jr's are not the same size and use an extra screw (found that out when I tried replacing one), and the SG Jr's overall dimensions are slightly different (they fit in cases that my other SG Jr's don't.) And the pickups are hotter, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Don't you have enough photos and magazines to keep your little mind busy? I don't have to prove anything to you by posting little pictures. I haven't posted photos anywhere on line since 2002 when my web site was hacked and raided and people were selling my guitars on E bay and out of a web store based in Singapore using those photos so screw you. Maybe that's your little ego trip showing off your BS collection but it isn't mine. Do you really want to continue this pissing contest? I edited my post so that it wasn't so antagonistic but I will gladly straighten you out about anything you want to discuss concerning Epiphone history. Think back for a second where *you* learned most of this...and no' date=' you didn't magically show up here one day just brimming with knowledge. I remember you quoting MY previous posts verbatim about your precious Matsumoku "Mattys" lol Mattys. Suddenly CheesyMac's an expert... basking in the glow of being held in high esteem for his knowledge....just happening to not acknowledge where he obtained his knowledge is all. I can go back to the old site to prove this if you like since you seem to be all about proof. I was almost flattered. The same way I am when I see my old posts quoted and even when they're plagiarized on E Bay, Craig's List and dealer web sites which happens quite often.. and of course by you. The flattery though does feel better when it's genuine and based on what you actually know and not what you lifted from someone else and are taking credit for. A "high end" guitar is a a Gibson L-5 A Matsumoku Epiphone is a "higher end" guitar than say the first wave of Matsumoku Epiphone electrics but doesn't achieve the level of a Gibson similar model unless you happen to be delusional. Semantics? No, rational thinking. Your "Mattys" are 1970's Japanese guitars with crappy pickups and cheap plastic-y finishes and huge ugly headstock volutes-they just happen to be slightly better than a lot of the crap that was coming out of Japan at the time and almost as good as what Gibson was putting out at the lowest quality point in their history-actually there's very little difference between your Mattys and the Korean versions except the finishes on the Mattys are a lot uglier and the pickups on the Samicks are better. I think what happens is the statement of "A higher end guitar intended for the Japanese exclusive market" is taken out of historical context. Higher end for that time but ten years later Samick had caught up But if you can tell me how there's any significant difference and your Mattys are in some way superior to a Samick-made model I'd love to hear it. Would that be in materials? I know it's not in the electronics since it's commonly acknowledged that this was a weak point for those guitars. Is the Japanese level of craftsmanship superior to the Korean? How so ? There are some Japanese guitars from that era that were extraordinary such as the original Ibanez L-5 Copy that morphed into the George Benson model but you don't own any of them...you own the garden variety Matsumoku Epiphones. OK guitars but not so exceptional as to warrant any ego displays for owning one. The serial formats of Gibsons and Epiphones changed with the 1994 Gibson Anniversary models. Again, no doubt there were exceptions with the Epiphones. Samick-branded instruments from around that time also used an "S" alpha prefix and after all-in actuality, they all are Samick guitars...or in the case of your "Mattys", Arias or from whatever contract factory made the particular guitar. Hasn't been an actual Epiphone made since about 1955 or so and even those were iffy at the end. The official serial number format change took place in 1994. I think you'll find that on the Gibson web site. I wasn't talking about the color of the labels and where do the pea-green labels (late 70's by the numbers) I've encountered a few times fit into your color scheme?... and I was discussing serial number formats and I never said that any were six or seven or twelve or seven hundred and forty numbers in those formats and I'll concede the 1985 models discrepancies I made because it was never that life-defining to me to know that..but you read it somewhere so it's probably true. Care to divulge the source? I don't doubt that there were strange Samick numbers. Seems I mentioned the case of one that deciphered to 1990 that was purchased in 1989 so what? The next time you talk to Jim Rosenberg ask him when Samick stopped making Epiphones and why-I'm repeating what he told me and the rest of the original Epiphone forum when I once asked him before you happened along. I didn't believe him at first and checked it out myself-Samick went into receivership in 1999 and then re-organization. You probably should hold on to that 2002 Samick if it is in deed a 2002 because if it is it's as rare a bird as you have in your collection. Again, you're basing this on serial numbers which are an inexact science with any brand. After their reorganization they may very well as returned to making guitars in Indonesia or where ever since they did re-open their piano manufacturing-in China around 2003 ...but you would be the one to know about all that since Chinese and Indonesian products seem to loom large in your life. I mentioned that the "starting in 1983" Samick acoustic numbers were the same as the "early 1986-93" because that was a format people were more familiar with so I referenced it as I did. And thanks again for adding the information on the Indonesian and Chinese numbers. I knew you could be counted on for something within your scope of knowledge. You know CheesyMac, we can take this a long way. Up to you. I have complete confidence in what I know off the top of my head which is what my entire original post was-off the top of my head.. How long did it take you find your rebuttal in your book collection? Where do you think Joe Pass Wannabe got a lot of the information for the often quoted and often lauded dating web site? I'm sure you know and I'm sure it bites you in the *** like a lot of things you read here. I was ready to let this pass because none of it is really worth my time but you continued it so now... Your serve. ...and Al's your uncle. [/quote'] I wrote a perfectly civil response, didn't even argue with you about the Matsumokus (I see Frenchie took that issue up), the only thing I said you were wrong about is Samick stopped making Epiphones in 1999, and the only reason I said that is because I have a 2001 (not 2002). But you're so certain your right that you shoot back sarcastically: You probably should hold on to that 2002 Samick if it is in deed a 2002 because if it is it's as rare a bird as you have in your collection. Well, here it is: My pappy used to tell me that the only person who would argue with a fool is a bigger fool, so I'm not going to aruge all your pointless points with you. I don't need to, you lose every time you resort to name calling. But I will point out one thing that you said about me is totally wrong. You said: There are some Japanese guitars from that era that were extraordinary such as the original Ibanez L-5 Copy that morphed into the George Benson model but you don't own any of them... Among the photos of my cheap guitars I posted was this: For anyone who's unfamilar with that guitar, that's my George Benson model Ibanez. I also own several other vintage Ibanez solid bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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