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Real or fake? epiphone black beauty


jeffrey92

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Hey guys, I'd really appreciate some help here. I ordered an epi black beauty online about a week ago. The price wasn't that low considering how much they go for on ebay normally. I thought I would be getting a 2nd for around 450-500. Most used ones sell for around that price too, or less. Anyways, I got it and at first I didn't think it could be a fake, but now I'm not sure.

 

I know these things really are made in china so its possible for it to be legit.

Here's the ebay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170192991945&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007

 

Here are a bunch of pics. I don't know if the pickups are supposed to say epiphone on em.... I also don't know what exactly the headstock is supposed to look like for 2007. They seem to change a bit. The only thing that is making me think its a fake is that I took the truss rod cover off and lo and behold! no nut!

 

But the most confusing thing is that all these sites say 'this is how to spot a gibson fake'. Well, epiphone's aren't always the same so hopefully I can get some profesional advice here.

 

And, if it is a fake, what should I do? Should I report them, or should I threaten the person and make sure I get all my money back and then report them? the person is in the us, and I payed with paypal, so I'm thinking I'm somewhat safe here. I just don't want to pay shipping charges. The person has a 7 day return policy, but I don't want to pay 40 for shipping so that's what I'll dispute, or threaten to dispute about. that all is of course if this is indeed a fake

 

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2612/dsc00722fw6.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9326/dsc00723ww0.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4944/dsc00724ya2.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9500/dsc00725xc2.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1966/dsc00726ip6.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9610/dsc00727xr2.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8418/dsc00728gl9.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1843/dsc00729nm0.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3947/dsc00730ik6.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4056/dsc00731le4.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1169/dsc00732ci1.jpg

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6998/dsc00733vc1.jpg

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Not an expert speaking here. But to me it _looks_ real. The bottomplate of my pickups says Epiphone as well. And the trussrod-end is barely visible when I take the trussrod-cover off(See my avatar). What where you hoping to find under there?;-)

 

That being said, I heard about a Chinese company selling Epi-clones. So they do exist!

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Have you tried putting the allen wrench into the little hole to see if it ingages with anything? Maybe it's my poor eyes or the poor computer monitor I have...but looks like a truss rod hex head down in there. With everything you got there...sure seems legit.

Capt

ps....the guitar dater says:

Your guitar was made at the

Qingdao Plant (Epiphone), China

September 2007

Production Number: 02352

Now I am not saying that they couldn't have copied a number also.

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Not an expert speaking here. But to me it _looks_ real. The bottomplate of my pickups says Epiphone as well. And the trussrod-end is barely visible when I take the trussrod-cover off(See my avatar). What where you hoping to find under there?;-)

 

That being said' date=' I heard about a Chinese company selling Epi-clones. So they do exist![/quote']

 

1st off Ricochet OUCH! 2nd thing, I was wondering if he was looking for something like a lug nut under there also...lol

Capt

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sometimes some Chinese made products may not be fakes as such but "back door ' products .In other words stuff that is made at the factory but is either a second ,sold off ,or just stolen ,possibly by management .Probably with low pay and Gibson making a huge profit on its Chines products ,few would have scruples about nicking some .putting it on ebay by proxy,or arranging a Ist world country to sell them on .They can probably earn themselves a fortune in Chinese terms for af ew stolen guitars sold at western prices which are probably about 5-6 times what Gibson pay their factory for them. This certainly happens with model autos made in China and also happened at least twice in the UK with toy soldiers and Matchbox toy cars .In the Britains toy soldier factory ,the women painters used to steal moulds and castings and paint them at home for sale ,mainly round Christmas time .I am sure some dealers and collectors have a "rare " item with different colours that has come out of the front room of some worker .I knew an ex Britains worker .She also painted the official toy soldiers at home as well, The Lesney Matchbox toy cars also were stolen ,sometimes when a batch went wrong or a colour was not acceptable .I was offered these when I was young as an employee lived near me .

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Well, I thought there was supposed to be a pretty visible nut in there. It seems like there might just be a white circle of stuff and then behind it is the nut, but I can't tell.

 

Does anyone have pics of what for sure real 07 black beauty looks like?

 

I don't know, it's just that the private listings and all is a little fishy. I'd like to believe its not a fake, but I don't want to get ripped off either. I asked the seller, he told me to check the serial number to see if its legit, but I know that they could just make it up.

 

Also, the strings just feel kinda bad. And is there any way to tell if the pickups are legit?

 

also on the controls it seems like they go straight from on to off. like at 0 its off and then at 1 its the loudest it gets. I'm not 100% sure how thats supposed to work though.

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Ummm... I hate to say it but you're being a lot paranoid and just a tad stupid. See that sticker on the back of the headstock that says it was inspected in the USA? No way an Epi fake or a back door reject would have that sticker on it; those are put on in the States when they reach the American Epiphone distribution center. It's REAL. Now shut up and play yer guitar.

 

It's not unusual for Epis to come with crappy strings, and if it's a used guitar they're probably old; personally I never keep the factory strings since they're the wrong gauge anyway and I prefer to know what I have on there. If the pickups have "Epiphone" embossed on the baseplates, you can be pretty sure that they are the legitimate pickups that you will soon be replacing with decent units. As to your wiring, well, it might be effed up, that is also not unheard of on Epis.

 

FYI that "How to spot a fake Gibson" site could easily be titled "How to spot a real Epiphone"... the "fake" Gibson in those pics is most likely an Epiphone.

 

Oh, and ricochet, dude... you don't need to snap the headstock off just to get at the truss rod nut. ](*,)

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Ummm... I hate to say it but you're being a lot paranoid and just a tad stupid. See that sticker on the back of the headstock that says it was inspected in the USA? No way an Epi fake or a back door reject would have that sticker on it; those are put on in the states when they reach the American Epiphone distribution center. It's REAL. Now shut up and play yer guitar.

 

Awww RoycanX if they can go to all the trouble of making everything else look real...why not a little ink sticker that says inspected in the USA...lol I can make one of those on this computer.

You are right about one thing tho "paranoid"....to many worries about a fake when it is more than likely the real deal. If it plays good...sounds good....read up in the manual on how the control knobs work, then go enjoy you new guitar Jeff. The stock strings suck anyway....try taking it in for a set-up and new strings and you will have a very nice playing guitar after that.

Capt

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Well, I hate to be the cynic...the guitars that are coming out of china do have that sticker applied before they even enter north america. I am curious more about the crappy routes and the wiring, look really poor to me. I think this is a copy.

 

I think the nut on the truss rod that you are looking for is the one that is on Gibson guitars. Epiphone have a standard allen key slot for truss rod adjustments on all of their guitars.

 

Did the guitar ship directly to you from China, if it did and has the inspection sticker on it, it is most likely a fake.

 

Now I also should mention some of the fake guitars that I have seen are nice quality copies, using solid bodies, decent pick ups, grovers, and are so hard to tell the difference that it is not worth talking about.

 

So far I have found the best way to buy an epi is either from an authorized dealer, or buy a factory inspected 2nd. THis way you know you are getting authentic product.

 

The best way to approach your guitar, is......does it play well, is the finish good, does it sound good, and do you like the guitar, if you answer yes, then I would say plug and play. If it is a pile of poo, then I would either sell it or go after the seller if indeed it is a fake.

 

Cheers,

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Well' date=' I hate to be the cynic...the guitars that are coming out of china do have that sticker applied before they even enter north america. I am curious more about the crappy routes and the wiring, look really poor to me. I think this is a copy.[/quote']

 

No.

They.

Don't.

 

NONE of the Epis sold in Canada, which come through a Canadian distributor, have that sticker on them:

 

eehead.jpg

 

Note: no U.S. inspection sticker. The blurred out red sticker is the store's sticker; beyond that you have the "Made in China" sticker and the little white Chinese inspection sticker. As to the crappy routes and wiring, well, when you've seen as many Epis as I have you'll know that is standard.

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Well let me see I have owned 3 dots, 1 joe pass, 1 custom, 1 ace frehelly, 1 standard, 1 ultra, 2 john lennon, 1 AJ 18SCE acoustic, 1 12 string AJ 1 custom elitist......guess I don't qualify as to owning or knowing enough. I can tell you that you are correct the Canadian distributor Yorkville not have the US sticker applied, as they do not go to the US before Canada.

 

The China fakes that I have had the pleasure to see had the nice inspected in the US sticker on the back and the guitar was still crap. One was brought into my local store after it arrived directly from China.

 

As for the routes, I have seen both very neat and absolute trash. I am just suspicious of the look of the pictures that were given....altough I am obviously not the expert or have the owning experience that you have=d>

 

Have a nice day!

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Dude... I'm the guitar tech at the local music store... I've quite honestly lost count of the number of Epis that I have opened up for repairs, mods or even just out of curiosity. Also, personally, I've owned 1 LP Classic, 1 Explorer, 1 Dot, 5 G-400s, 2 LP Junior DCs, 1 LP Special (NOT the bolt-neck II), 1 LP Studio, 4 cruddy AJ acoustics (all with snapped headstocks) and 3 Elitists, and believe me, crappy routing (including "touch-up" routing to make the pickups fit) is par for the course, especially on the newer Chinese stuff.

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I understand your concern Jeffrey92 but... if it was me. An Epi black beauty is 700USD at MF or GC! If it plays good. Sounds good, I wouldn't complain that much.

 

Just pry that white glue residu out with a pocket knife. Restring with a fresh set(who doesn't with a new guitar?). Resolder any bad solderwork and/or replace the pots with some quality pots. You'd want to in the long run anyway.

 

@RotcanX... NOW you tell me! [should have seen me tune that thing!]

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TRCs said "Gibson" on 'em until mid 2004... so MF is just using an old pic.

 

And look... that eBay auction is completely unlike the classic Chinese rip-offs seen on eBay. Plus the seller is a long-time eBay client with over 170 referrals and 100% positive feedback (which is the kind of stuff you should have looked at before enteriing any bid on an item).

 

I fail to see a single indication that would point to that guitar being anything but an authentic Epiphone Black Beauty.

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Yea I suppose I am being a bit paranoid, but I'd rather like to know that my $450 was not a waste or not spent on a fake.

 

I mean, ya, it looks good and stuff so it can't be that bad, but it would just be good to know.

 

The whole reason I thought it was legit is cause I thought it was a 2nd and I was ok with that. But it doesn't have any 2nd stamped on it. The thing about the seller is all the listings are private and ya, I think it was shipped from china.

 

I guess it all comes down to what really makes a guitar a guitar? I guess the thing I'm worried about is the electronics. The body seems pretty sturdy and it doesn't seem cheap. I just don't want th electronics to screw me up later. Are the tone controls supposed to be like that? Like, it seems that they don't really gauge anything but that they are on/off almost. Is there any way of checking this?

 

thanks for all the help so far. But I would rather be paranoid than be stuck with a fake that looks good but is cheap inside. I'll test the truss and all when I get home. I'm guessing it DOES work, seeing as how it came with the tool you use to make the adjustments (I forget what its called lol)

 

if anyone can help out, just let me know if you want me to take some pics of a specific area/place. I guess I'll contact the seller one more time. If it IS legit, there should be a reason for it being cheap and yet not a 2nd. If its not legit, hopefully he'll either tell me or someone here can find something. It's too bad that epiphone doesn't have many standards as far as making the guitar goes. It'd be a lot easier to identify things.

 

Oh and ya, the sticker thing, that is extrmely easy to copy.

 

I guess in any case it looks good, but I want it to sound good too. And because I don't have access to other epi's or black beauties, I can't really tell. and I don't want to lug my amp somewhere to see if it sounds the exact same.

 

btw: I just recieved this message from another member:

"hello,i see you have purchased a epiphone guitar from ebay 166ellis seller.this seller sales for epiphone guitar are fakes not real.you can make an identification for your guitar,go to any one music store in your area.you would know the guitar are fakes or really.another according to paypal of policy,you can ask compensation from seller provide 2,000 . Paypal Policy:Buyer Complaint Policy and PayPal Buyer Protection Policy

or your can to make complaints in ebay and paypal.the title is he trafficking in counterfeit epiphone guitar.from other purchase of fake epiphone guitar users if not do this,you can't get your money.thanks"

 

however, this person has no feedback and the message is sorta broken, so can I trust this person or are they just trying to eliminate some competition or something? I don't know what to think now lol

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Hey Jeff,

Maybe in this cold cruel world...you just got a good deal. Remember what they say about looking a gift horse in the mouth? My studio tone controls roll off pretty good...but some don't, just the nature of the beast. You want to check them out get an OHM meter and plug a cord into the guitar...then as you roll the tone control from 1 to 10 watch the meter...it should very...but not alot. Bunch of the guys on here do upgrades and change out the control pots and the caps as well because of that problem. Along with the pick ups and tuners. If it's a nice guitar and feels good...plays well.....think maybe after dropping in new pots and pickups it would be in the price range you think it should be then...lol

 

Tell me...how long did it take from the time you won the guitar till you got it? weeks or days? If it can from china...it took a slow trip....hmmmm have heard that before somewhere about a slow boat to chine...lol If it's fake...you can be sure he didn't fly it out to you...would eat up all the profit.;)

 

If you are worried that much then take it to a shop and let them look at it for you..shouldn't charge you anything to do that...and if it is legit...go ahead and let them set it up for you...be money well spent.

That guy who emailed you may have been the next bidder down from you and he is wanting a second chance at it too....but since it was private...maybe think "how the heck did he get my email addy???".

Capt

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Yea well I still would rather have the real deal. I don't see what taking it to a shop will do though.

 

Yea it took about 2 weeks to get it. I ordered it on a monday and got it the next thursday. so a week and a half. I am also wondering how he got my email, but it wasn't a buy it now and there were 3 more of the same exact auctions listed after mine.

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The guy got back to me:

 

"Hi, I had to provide information to ebay when I started to sell the epiphone guitars, Ebay has employees from epiphone/gibson to check out the information. I have sold the last of the epiphones I am able to get. Epiphones are made in China and some were made in Korea, so yes there are epiphone guitars all over the world not just in the USA. I have never heard of fake epiphone until just recently. I have heard of copies of Gibson. I have had customers send pictures to epiphone of there guitars and epiphone said they were also authentic. If you dont like your guitar ship it back to me and I will refund your money. As far as having private auctions the reason I do that is so buyers dont have other people emailing them with offers for the same product.

 

God Bless"

 

sounds legit to me, but what do you all think?

 

edit: I asked him how he sold them so cheap and this is what he said:

"Hi, I barley broke even on this sale, I found though that if you put a guitar up at no reserve and start low you will normally come out ahead and have more sales, once you get people bidding you usually come out better. I sold more guitars than I had stock of and had some shipped from a drop shipper."

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Hey Jeff, 2 weeks doesn't sound bad to me, especially from a private seller. I've ordered from MF and it's taken that long, and they advertise same day shipping, yeah right. Same day take your money, put it on a truck when ever they feel like it. But, that's the nature of online buying. I've ordered ALL of my musical stuff online, sometimes it gets here quick, order Monday, get on Friday, sometimes not. I've got a multi-effects pedal that was in stock that I ordered at the beginning of the week, got sent a tracking number the next day, but when it finally did update, which was today, says it won't get here until Monday. Anyway, back to your guitar. I'm curious, how was it shipped to you? FedEx and UPS have online tracking, you can put in the number and it may tell you the shipping details. From your pictures, it appears to be a typical epiphone. I just got a new Zakk Wylde Bulleye Epi, and the guts look pretty much the same, if not worse under the covers. Pots can be bad straight from the factory, happened to a friend of mine with a Washburn Idol he got. He just took it to the shop and they hooked him up with some quality pots and he's a happy camper. At least your guitar is in one piece! Any other damage to it? Since it wasn't purchased through a dealer, you are probably out of luck on warranty work. Was it used, or appear used? I noticed the listing advertised it as new.

 

(Well your previous post came before I finished this one.....)

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I was just on the Musoland site before reading this thread, and the photos that your eBay seller used in his listing are the exact same photos that are on Musoland.com... Now, I wouldn't get too alarmed, though, because Musoland has 2 separate listings for Epiphones... One for obvious fakes and another for "Genuine Epiphones"... A lot of these Chinese dealers have already given up trying to pass their guitars off as the real deal... If you ask some of them, they'll tell you they're copies, (if you couldn't tell yourself) I figure the guitars in their "Genuine Epiphones" list are "back door" Epis... Musoland says they come from the Qingdao factory... They look all legit to me... If your LP was drop shipped directly from China, the eBay seller is probably getting his guitars from Musoland...

 

Oh, and they did have the "Inspected in USA" stickers on them too...

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